4 ms·

Why do you think this hasn't happened in Europe?

skookumchuck 8y ago
I know a German who avoided work by staying in university into her 40s. This was only possible because it was free to her. Despite 20+ years of university education, she managed to get a low level job. I don't know how prevalent this is in Europe. But it's a general economic fact that people don't value what they get for free. They need to have "skin in the game", so to speak. If you want evidence, look at how people treat rental cars vs their own. Or how they treat those ride share bikes. Or how they treat public bathrooms. Etc.
- travisporter 8y ago
  People may not value it but can I argue that society improves as a result? I personally treat rental cars, bikes and public bathrooms the same as anyone else. I don’t trash them but don’t clean them meticulously. I still value their presence.
  - monetus 8y ago
    I agree with your sentiment, but understand his as well. I think it's mostly a cultural problem rather than some instinctual problem with humanity. Japan has a culture of cleanliness as far as I can tell. In my area, however, a handful practices seem to persist because of the fun derived from exploiting the commons.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      Many times I hear the phrase "what do you care, it's a rental!" People who buy used cars tend to avoid ex-rentals. Once a group I was in was staying in a hotel. We were all heading out to dinner, and one person came out of her room, leaving the light on. I asked why she didn't turn out the light. She replied: "why should I? I'm not paying the electric bill." Apparently that's pretty common, as most hotel rooms I stay in these days require you to insert your room key into a device that enables turning on the lights, so they turned off when you leave.
      - monetus 8y ago
        This is so frustrating because it describes my family... They understand empathy and the concept of a carbon footprint, but don't consider them when it comes to decision making. In my experience, it is as if it isn't a variable in the equation.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    I attended public high school, where everything was free, and a private college, where everyone paid to attend. What a difference. High school was populated by people "doing their time", who wanted to get by doing as little as possible, thought it was cool to be disruptive, cut classes, etc. They definitely dragged the whole thing down for the others. College was different. People paid to be there, the work was hard, people wanted to be there and would take the hard classes to get their money's worth. There weren't any disruptive students. What a difference.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      You're also describing the difference between children and adults. In fact, I think you'll find that the older the college students the less the disruption.
      - skookumchuck 8y ago
        When I was a boy I'd not take care of my shoes, wearing them out very quickly. My father applied a simple solution. He said if I wanted new shoes, I had to earn the money to pay for them. My shoes started lasting several times longer. I was still a child. My dad didn't think of this himself. The Army had the same problem with combat boots, and solved it by having the GIs pay for their boots.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      Money is not the only way to pay. In fact, it is often the easiest way to pay. I studied in a university in a country where you have a dual-track system - either you get in for free, but have to pass a far more rigorous exam (since you're competing against everybody else who is trying to get in for free), or you pay and get your spot. The people who paid their way in - or rather, whose parents paid their way in - tended to do that "doing their time" thing you described. The people who were studying for free were far more determined to make all the efforts that they had to put into passing the entry exam worthwhile.
pcstl 8y ago
I don't have data for the whole of Europe, but bachelor degrees in Germany are much less common than in my country despite the fact that higher education there is much more accessible. This seems to correlate to the fact that Germany also has a very well-established system of vocational schools and university there is seen as a way of becoming a researcher or for certain high-skill careers, not a requirement for being treated as a functional human being (which is what I see higher education becoming in the US and my country both). I can't speak for all of Europe, but Germany avoids having university degrees becoming a mere piece of paper useful only for signaling by having alternate paths to a fulfilling career.
SatvikBeri 8y ago
My understanding is that most European colleges have entrance exams and only a fraction of people pass. And since entrance is based purely on exams, college admission is a much stronger signal than in the US.
- screye 8y ago
  I think it is the other way round. You can easily enroll in any university you like, but can't advance in that major if held back in the rather difficult weed-out classes.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
Hasn't it? I'm all for public education, but at least in Poland, it seems that almost any half-decent job expects you to have education past high-school level.
- mamon 8y ago
  Poland is a pathological case, because where communism fell we inherited one thing from it: obligatory two-year service in the army for all men of age 19 (except those with health issues, obviously). And one of the only few reliable ways to avoid it was to go to university. The result was that literaly thousands of bullshit private universities were created not to educate you, but to help you avoid military. This also created additional income source for university professors, who earn pretty shitty salary in Poland. Now, obligatory military service was abolished few years ago, but the trend of everyone going to college after high school remained.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Hadn't thought of that, thanks. I was born and lived in an "university town", and I remember military recruiters in my town were absolutely expecting that everyone's going to university, and they defaulted to giving people the status of "not suitable for service during peace time" for any reason whatsoever. I heard that in smaller towns, on the other hand, it was much more difficult to avoid getting pushed into service.
SkyBelow 8y ago
Due to significant political and social differences. For example, why has the value of a high school diploma decreased more in the US than in Europe? Why does the US have more of a problem with for-profit colleges? Why does the US have such a rapidly rising cost of college (regardless if the cost is paid by students or by the state)? If I had to give a single root cause, it would be how we vote (the US system leads to a far stronger polarized two party system than Europe has).

I know a German who avoided work by staying in university into her 40s. This was only possible because it was free to her. Despite 20+ years of university education, she managed to get a low level job. I don't know how prevalent this is in Europe. But it's a general economic fact that people don't value what they get for free. They need to have "skin in the game", so to speak. If you want evidence, look at how people treat rental cars vs their own. Or how they treat those ride share bikes. Or how they treat public bathrooms. Etc.

travisporter 8y ago
People may not value it but can I argue that society improves as a result? I personally treat rental cars, bikes and public bathrooms the same as anyone else. I don’t trash them but don’t clean them meticulously. I still value their presence.
- monetus 8y ago
  I agree with your sentiment, but understand his as well. I think it's mostly a cultural problem rather than some instinctual problem with humanity. Japan has a culture of cleanliness as far as I can tell. In my area, however, a handful practices seem to persist because of the fun derived from exploiting the commons.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    Many times I hear the phrase "what do you care, it's a rental!" People who buy used cars tend to avoid ex-rentals. Once a group I was in was staying in a hotel. We were all heading out to dinner, and one person came out of her room, leaving the light on. I asked why she didn't turn out the light. She replied: "why should I? I'm not paying the electric bill." Apparently that's pretty common, as most hotel rooms I stay in these days require you to insert your room key into a device that enables turning on the lights, so they turned off when you leave.
    - monetus 8y ago
      This is so frustrating because it describes my family... They understand empathy and the concept of a carbon footprint, but don't consider them when it comes to decision making. In my experience, it is as if it isn't a variable in the equation.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  I attended public high school, where everything was free, and a private college, where everyone paid to attend. What a difference. High school was populated by people "doing their time", who wanted to get by doing as little as possible, thought it was cool to be disruptive, cut classes, etc. They definitely dragged the whole thing down for the others. College was different. People paid to be there, the work was hard, people wanted to be there and would take the hard classes to get their money's worth. There weren't any disruptive students. What a difference.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    You're also describing the difference between children and adults. In fact, I think you'll find that the older the college students the less the disruption.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      When I was a boy I'd not take care of my shoes, wearing them out very quickly. My father applied a simple solution. He said if I wanted new shoes, I had to earn the money to pay for them. My shoes started lasting several times longer. I was still a child. My dad didn't think of this himself. The Army had the same problem with combat boots, and solved it by having the GIs pay for their boots.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    Money is not the only way to pay. In fact, it is often the easiest way to pay. I studied in a university in a country where you have a dual-track system - either you get in for free, but have to pass a far more rigorous exam (since you're competing against everybody else who is trying to get in for free), or you pay and get your spot. The people who paid their way in - or rather, whose parents paid their way in - tended to do that "doing their time" thing you described. The people who were studying for free were far more determined to make all the efforts that they had to put into passing the entry exam worthwhile.

pcstl 8y ago

I don't have data for the whole of Europe, but bachelor degrees in Germany are much less common than in my country despite the fact that higher education there is much more accessible. This seems to correlate to the fact that Germany also has a very well-established system of vocational schools and university there is seen as a way of becoming a researcher or for certain high-skill careers, not a requirement for being treated as a functional human being (which is what I see higher education becoming in the US and my country both). I can't speak for all of Europe, but Germany avoids having university degrees becoming a mere piece of paper useful only for signaling by having alternate paths to a fulfilling career.

SatvikBeri 8y ago

My understanding is that most European colleges have entrance exams and only a fraction of people pass. And since entrance is based purely on exams, college admission is a much stronger signal than in the US.

screye 8y ago
I think it is the other way round. You can easily enroll in any university you like, but can't advance in that major if held back in the rather difficult weed-out classes.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

Hasn't it? I'm all for public education, but at least in Poland, it seems that almost any half-decent job expects you to have education past high-school level.

mamon 8y ago
Poland is a pathological case, because where communism fell we inherited one thing from it: obligatory two-year service in the army for all men of age 19 (except those with health issues, obviously). And one of the only few reliable ways to avoid it was to go to university. The result was that literaly thousands of bullshit private universities were created not to educate you, but to help you avoid military. This also created additional income source for university professors, who earn pretty shitty salary in Poland. Now, obligatory military service was abolished few years ago, but the trend of everyone going to college after high school remained.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Hadn't thought of that, thanks. I was born and lived in an "university town", and I remember military recruiters in my town were absolutely expecting that everyone's going to university, and they defaulted to giving people the status of "not suitable for service during peace time" for any reason whatsoever. I heard that in smaller towns, on the other hand, it was much more difficult to avoid getting pushed into service.

SkyBelow 8y ago

Due to significant political and social differences. For example, why has the value of a high school diploma decreased more in the US than in Europe? Why does the US have more of a problem with for-profit colleges? Why does the US have such a rapidly rising cost of college (regardless if the cost is paid by students or by the state)? If I had to give a single root cause, it would be how we vote (the US system leads to a far stronger polarized two party system than Europe has).