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> You can drive a manual in stop and go traffic. That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic. It's weird, I've never actually thoug

> You can drive a manual in stop and go traffic. That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic. It's weird, I've never actually thought of changing gear as a hassle or something that makes driving un-fun. Stop and go traffic is a game, where the goal is to not brake. Gears give me an additional way to achieve that goal. For me it's way more engaging and helps me pay more attention to the road...

swozey 8y ago
Have you driven a motorcycle or a high horsepower car with a stiff clutch in stop and go traffic? I developed leg problems from my Cobra a decade ago. Sitting in traffic was absolutely miserable. Same with bikes, except there you're also covered in sweat the entire time so it's even less pleasant. My DCT BMW was also annoying in stop and go traffic and I didn't even have to manipulate the gears. I still find shifting to be fun, I mostly drove my BMW in manual DCT mode (dual clutch). But in traffic? I don't want to go near a manual.
- i_am_proteus 8y ago
  If you're on a motorcycle in stop-and-go traffic, just keep it in second gear and lane split. Even if it's not legal. If you're in clogged traffic, They can't get you, and you'll see the fuzz before they see you since you'll be overtaking.
  - swozey 8y ago
    That isn't about the fuzz. People who live in States/Cities (everywhere but CA, right?) where lane splitting is illegal aren't used to lane splitting. They aren't sitting in their cars watching out for bikers and they'll make abrupt lane changes without even looking for you. That's incredibly dangerous. I moved from FL (lane splitting is illegal but people seem used to it) to TX (no splitting) and doing that is a death wish here. Obviously you know your areas driving culture better than me but there's definitely places I wouldn't do that. Hell you'll probably just piss off people in TX and they'll run you over out of spite. Territorial drivers.
    - i_am_proteus 8y ago
      I've approached the practice with caution every time I've moved. I'm currently in California, and drivers here are more accepting of the practice due to legality, but for every three drivers who move over to give me more room, there's one who's texting and swerving.
    - jnicholasp 8y ago
      Anyone riding a motorcycle who is simply blindly counting on other drivers to see them, follow all the rules of the road carefully, and never do anything unexpected, is not going to last long. Everything motorcyclists do has to be done in such a way that it will still be safe even if the other cars around them are all but actively malicious. Fortunately, motorcycles are extremely agile, quick, and small, so it's easy for the attentive, cautious rider to anticipate and avoid most hazards. The trick is just managing to always be sufficiently attentive and cautious.
  - Klathmon 8y ago
    I'd just caution against doing this in some areas. A member of a group I used to ride with decided to stop riding when someone opened their door to stop him from splitting in PA. He smacked into the door, was physically okay, but ended up getting charged with something like "illegal lane change", had his insurance prices skyrocket, and decided to stop riding as he had to drive for his job, and he was worried that another 3-point ticket would get him a 30 day suspension and he'd basically lose his job.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      The driver who opened their door is very lucky nothing serious came of it. Many motorcycle riders would treat that as an attempt on their life and react accordingly, probably not working out well for the car driver.
      - leesalminen 8y ago
        I’d say it probably wouldn’t work out well for anyone. Where I live, ~50% of motorists are armed and no permits are required to do so. Road rage never ends well for anyone involved here. The moral of the story is: be respectful of others. If you’re a motorcyclist in a state where it’s illegal to lane split, don’t do it. If you’re a driver in a state where it is legal, don’t be a dick to motorcyclists if they are lane splitting. I’d also like to add that I think lane splitting is wildly dangerous and dread driving in California. Surely motorcyclists die from this every year?
        Klathmon 8y ago
        >I’d also like to add that I think lane splitting is wildly dangerous and dread driving in California. Surely motorcyclists die from this every year? So it's a bit contentious, but from what i've seen, it's safe as long as it's done safely, which is a dumb sentence, but let me explain: There are really 2 things that people talk about with "lane splitting": * Filtering - moving up between stopped cars at a light to the front of the pack, and then driving away when the light turns green. Generally you aren't passing other moving vehicles when filtering, or if they are moving it's a few mph at most. * Lane Splitting - This is when you are driving between lanes passing other vehicles that are moving. Filtering is considered to be safer than not filtering. It reduces rear-end accidents (people tend to "look through" bikers, and will pull up behind the car in front of them like they aren't there, there's also your "normal" rear-end accidents, but they are much worse for the biker...), it reduces traffic (bikes accelerate faster, so getting them out front is helpful to reduce the rubberbanding traffic), and it's obviously nicer for the biker as they get where they are going quicker. Splitting on the other hand is contentious. On the one hand I believe there have been studies done that shows it reduces fatalities. But at the same time it does actually increase accidents, but those accidents tend to be much less dangerous. Since a splitter should only be going 5-10mph faster than the cars, any impacts should be kind of like 10mph impacts, and are much less dangerous (obviously still dangerous, but much less than being rear-ended, getting left-turned into, or rear-ending something, etc...). And it greatly reduces low-speed rear-endings while sitting in traffic (a fairly low-speed fender-bender can be a lot worse when a small bump can throw you backwards off the bike and onto the ground!) But splitting does have other benefits other than safety. It's obviously much faster for the bikers, reduces traffic for everyone, and therefore reduces environmental impact in many cases (less cars AND bikes idling in traffic). And there are also second order benefits that it encourages more people to ride bikes, which just increases the above benefits even more. Still, it's my opinion that both Splitting and Filtering should be fully legal everywhere. It doesn't really impact drivers or those who don't split to have it be legal beyond a possibly slight increase in small accidents (there's an argument that if it is much more dangerous then it could increase healthcare costs for everyone too), and those who are okay with the risks can do it. And obviously at no point should anyone ever be flying between cars going 20mph+ faster than the cars around them. That's not safe splitting, and that's not what I want either.
wutangson1 8y ago
"That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic" what in the lawerly language are you trying to say?
- dmoy 8y ago
  Driving stick in traffic really sucks by comparison to an automatic.
  - wutangson1 8y ago
    Thank you. I suppose for me the 'cognitive load' of parsing whole parenthetical phrases and double negatives is more taxing than shifting from 2nd gear back into neutral.

swozey 8y ago

Have you driven a motorcycle or a high horsepower car with a stiff clutch in stop and go traffic? I developed leg problems from my Cobra a decade ago. Sitting in traffic was absolutely miserable. Same with bikes, except there you're also covered in sweat the entire time so it's even less pleasant. My DCT BMW was also annoying in stop and go traffic and I didn't even have to manipulate the gears. I still find shifting to be fun, I mostly drove my BMW in manual DCT mode (dual clutch). But in traffic? I don't want to go near a manual.

i_am_proteus 8y ago
If you're on a motorcycle in stop-and-go traffic, just keep it in second gear and lane split. Even if it's not legal. If you're in clogged traffic, They can't get you, and you'll see the fuzz before they see you since you'll be overtaking.
- swozey 8y ago
  That isn't about the fuzz. People who live in States/Cities (everywhere but CA, right?) where lane splitting is illegal aren't used to lane splitting. They aren't sitting in their cars watching out for bikers and they'll make abrupt lane changes without even looking for you. That's incredibly dangerous. I moved from FL (lane splitting is illegal but people seem used to it) to TX (no splitting) and doing that is a death wish here. Obviously you know your areas driving culture better than me but there's definitely places I wouldn't do that. Hell you'll probably just piss off people in TX and they'll run you over out of spite. Territorial drivers.
  - i_am_proteus 8y ago
    I've approached the practice with caution every time I've moved. I'm currently in California, and drivers here are more accepting of the practice due to legality, but for every three drivers who move over to give me more room, there's one who's texting and swerving.
  - jnicholasp 8y ago
    Anyone riding a motorcycle who is simply blindly counting on other drivers to see them, follow all the rules of the road carefully, and never do anything unexpected, is not going to last long. Everything motorcyclists do has to be done in such a way that it will still be safe even if the other cars around them are all but actively malicious. Fortunately, motorcycles are extremely agile, quick, and small, so it's easy for the attentive, cautious rider to anticipate and avoid most hazards. The trick is just managing to always be sufficiently attentive and cautious.
- Klathmon 8y ago
  I'd just caution against doing this in some areas. A member of a group I used to ride with decided to stop riding when someone opened their door to stop him from splitting in PA. He smacked into the door, was physically okay, but ended up getting charged with something like "illegal lane change", had his insurance prices skyrocket, and decided to stop riding as he had to drive for his job, and he was worried that another 3-point ticket would get him a 30 day suspension and he'd basically lose his job.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    The driver who opened their door is very lucky nothing serious came of it. Many motorcycle riders would treat that as an attempt on their life and react accordingly, probably not working out well for the car driver.
    - leesalminen 8y ago
      I’d say it probably wouldn’t work out well for anyone. Where I live, ~50% of motorists are armed and no permits are required to do so. Road rage never ends well for anyone involved here. The moral of the story is: be respectful of others. If you’re a motorcyclist in a state where it’s illegal to lane split, don’t do it. If you’re a driver in a state where it is legal, don’t be a dick to motorcyclists if they are lane splitting. I’d also like to add that I think lane splitting is wildly dangerous and dread driving in California. Surely motorcyclists die from this every year?
      - Klathmon 8y ago
        >I’d also like to add that I think lane splitting is wildly dangerous and dread driving in California. Surely motorcyclists die from this every year? So it's a bit contentious, but from what i've seen, it's safe as long as it's done safely, which is a dumb sentence, but let me explain: There are really 2 things that people talk about with "lane splitting": * Filtering - moving up between stopped cars at a light to the front of the pack, and then driving away when the light turns green. Generally you aren't passing other moving vehicles when filtering, or if they are moving it's a few mph at most. * Lane Splitting - This is when you are driving between lanes passing other vehicles that are moving. Filtering is considered to be safer than not filtering. It reduces rear-end accidents (people tend to "look through" bikers, and will pull up behind the car in front of them like they aren't there, there's also your "normal" rear-end accidents, but they are much worse for the biker...), it reduces traffic (bikes accelerate faster, so getting them out front is helpful to reduce the rubberbanding traffic), and it's obviously nicer for the biker as they get where they are going quicker. Splitting on the other hand is contentious. On the one hand I believe there have been studies done that shows it reduces fatalities. But at the same time it does actually increase accidents, but those accidents tend to be much less dangerous. Since a splitter should only be going 5-10mph faster than the cars, any impacts should be kind of like 10mph impacts, and are much less dangerous (obviously still dangerous, but much less than being rear-ended, getting left-turned into, or rear-ending something, etc...). And it greatly reduces low-speed rear-endings while sitting in traffic (a fairly low-speed fender-bender can be a lot worse when a small bump can throw you backwards off the bike and onto the ground!) But splitting does have other benefits other than safety. It's obviously much faster for the bikers, reduces traffic for everyone, and therefore reduces environmental impact in many cases (less cars AND bikes idling in traffic). And there are also second order benefits that it encourages more people to ride bikes, which just increases the above benefits even more. Still, it's my opinion that both Splitting and Filtering should be fully legal everywhere. It doesn't really impact drivers or those who don't split to have it be legal beyond a possibly slight increase in small accidents (there's an argument that if it is much more dangerous then it could increase healthcare costs for everyone too), and those who are okay with the risks can do it. And obviously at no point should anyone ever be flying between cars going 20mph+ faster than the cars around them. That's not safe splitting, and that's not what I want either.

wutangson1 8y ago

"That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic" what in the lawerly language are you trying to say?

dmoy 8y ago
Driving stick in traffic really sucks by comparison to an automatic.
- wutangson1 8y ago
  Thank you. I suppose for me the 'cognitive load' of parsing whole parenthetical phrases and double negatives is more taxing than shifting from 2nd gear back into neutral.