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You can drive a manual in stop and go traffic (and I don't mean that suburban sprawl "run through the gears between each stop light" type of stop and go you get

You can drive a manual in stop and go traffic (and I don't mean that suburban sprawl "run through the gears between each stop light" type of stop and go you get in some places, I mean like going 10-30ft at a time between stops). That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic. The extra cognitive load of having to worry about range and where you're going to charge is a pain in the butt that most people will opt out of, all else being close to equal.

maccio92 8y ago
In the tesla's, if you input your route into the car's gps, it'll automatically route you to charging stations as needed
Ntrails 8y ago
> You can drive a manual in stop and go traffic. That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic. It's weird, I've never actually thought of changing gear as a hassle or something that makes driving un-fun. Stop and go traffic is a game, where the goal is to not brake. Gears give me an additional way to achieve that goal. For me it's way more engaging and helps me pay more attention to the road...
- swozey 8y ago
  Have you driven a motorcycle or a high horsepower car with a stiff clutch in stop and go traffic? I developed leg problems from my Cobra a decade ago. Sitting in traffic was absolutely miserable. Same with bikes, except there you're also covered in sweat the entire time so it's even less pleasant. My DCT BMW was also annoying in stop and go traffic and I didn't even have to manipulate the gears. I still find shifting to be fun, I mostly drove my BMW in manual DCT mode (dual clutch). But in traffic? I don't want to go near a manual.
  - i_am_proteus 8y ago
    If you're on a motorcycle in stop-and-go traffic, just keep it in second gear and lane split. Even if it's not legal. If you're in clogged traffic, They can't get you, and you'll see the fuzz before they see you since you'll be overtaking.
    - swozey 8y ago
      That isn't about the fuzz. People who live in States/Cities (everywhere but CA, right?) where lane splitting is illegal aren't used to lane splitting. They aren't sitting in their cars watching out for bikers and they'll make abrupt lane changes without even looking for you. That's incredibly dangerous. I moved from FL (lane splitting is illegal but people seem used to it) to TX (no splitting) and doing that is a death wish here. Obviously you know your areas driving culture better than me but there's definitely places I wouldn't do that. Hell you'll probably just piss off people in TX and they'll run you over out of spite. Territorial drivers.
      - i_am_proteus 8y ago
        I've approached the practice with caution every time I've moved. I'm currently in California, and drivers here are more accepting of the practice due to legality, but for every three drivers who move over to give me more room, there's one who's texting and swerving.
      - jnicholasp 8y ago
        Anyone riding a motorcycle who is simply blindly counting on other drivers to see them, follow all the rules of the road carefully, and never do anything unexpected, is not going to last long. Everything motorcyclists do has to be done in such a way that it will still be safe even if the other cars around them are all but actively malicious. Fortunately, motorcycles are extremely agile, quick, and small, so it's easy for the attentive, cautious rider to anticipate and avoid most hazards. The trick is just managing to always be sufficiently attentive and cautious.
    - Klathmon 8y ago
      I'd just caution against doing this in some areas. A member of a group I used to ride with decided to stop riding when someone opened their door to stop him from splitting in PA. He smacked into the door, was physically okay, but ended up getting charged with something like "illegal lane change", had his insurance prices skyrocket, and decided to stop riding as he had to drive for his job, and he was worried that another 3-point ticket would get him a 30 day suspension and he'd basically lose his job.
- wutangson1 8y ago
  "That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic" what in the lawerly language are you trying to say?
  - dmoy 8y ago
    Driving stick in traffic really sucks by comparison to an automatic.
    - wutangson1 8y ago
      Thank you. I suppose for me the 'cognitive load' of parsing whole parenthetical phrases and double negatives is more taxing than shifting from 2nd gear back into neutral.
Reason077 8y ago
Charging is really not much of a “cognitive load” in my experience. The navigation system can plan it for you, suggesting exactly where you should charge and how long it’ll take. As for extra time spent charging? I guess there are those out there who really do drive more than 4-5 hours at once without stopping for a meal, stretch, toilet break, etc. But surely they’re a tiny minority.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Do you really always stop for your meal break somewhere there's a supercharger? A meal and a charger are not located in the same place for most people most of the time.
  - Reason077 8y ago
    Right now you might be planning stops according to where there’s a supercharger. But charging networks are expanding all the time. This is especially in Europe, where in a Model 3, you also have the choice of using competing CCS charging networks like Ionity.
prolepunk 8y ago
I object to that! Whenever I get stuck in traffic going uphill, my left leg gets a good workout.
natch 8y ago
If cognitive load is what you care about, you should try autopilot’s cruise control with distance keeping. Stress erased from driving and cognitive load lifted almost completely. The win from this overcomes any cognitive load from thinking about charging by a factor of 100 or more in my experience. Most people are blown away by this when they get it. Of course it’s not unique to Tesla but it’s a big benefit.
- patejam 8y ago
  You mean the cruise control that's already killed people? The cognitive load of not trusting cars around you is now increased by having to worry about not trusting your own car. That's crazy to me. I'm pretty convinced most stress caused by driving is just people driving way too aggressively.
  - bdamm 8y ago
    The conversation was about using AP in very heavy traffic, which has killed nobody. > I'm pretty convinced most stress caused by driving is just people driving way too aggressively. In my experience it is much more stressful to be on the lookout for drivers that just aren't paying attention. They exhibit no bad behavior until the poorly timed lane change, missed light, etc.
  - keldaris 8y ago
    > I'm pretty convinced most stress caused by driving is just people driving way too aggressively. In my experience, the exact opposite seems to be the case. Aggressive drivers tend to move with a purpose, pay attention and react logically (even if recklessly) to events on the road. By contrast, the bored people zoning out while driving, the people stuck on their phones or just clogging up the fast lane while driving under the speed limit are unpredictable (and when they do wake up, they tend to panic) and cause problems all around themselves as everyone else is forced to adjust. People who can't be bothered to care about driving while doing it are much worse than people who care too much.
    - patejam 8y ago
cogman10 8y ago
Having just done a 1000 mile (1600km) road trip through Oregon, it wasn't really that big of a hassle. I told my car where I wanted to go, the tesla routing software put down pins on where to charge and told me how long to charge. That was it. If anything, planning for gas stops is much more of a burden, because usually as you are driving, once you get to ~1/4 full you are thinking to yourself "Ok, where can I stop to get gas? Is there a place close enough? Which stations have the best price?" With this, all of that cognitive load was gone and handled for me by a smart routing computer.
- dexterdog 8y ago
  If you are on a highway with 1/4 tank you are likely to have a number of options before you get close to running out an you can be taking just about any route you want. With a supercharger dependency you are highly limited.
  - vsl 8y ago
    See your sibling comment.
    - dexterdog 8y ago
      What does that have to do with chargers? There are less chargers than gas stations.
- Zanni 8y ago
  I had this exact problem in my gas-powered rental car recently, driving between Vegas and LA. The gas stations along the 15 were hectic, and I was planning to turn off onto a more scenic route which, I imagined, would have low-key, low-traffic gas stations. Surprise--there wasn't a gas station for over 100 miles! Double surprise--there was no cell reception either!

maccio92 8y ago

In the tesla's, if you input your route into the car's gps, it'll automatically route you to charging stations as needed

Ntrails 8y ago

> You can drive a manual in stop and go traffic. That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic. It's weird, I've never actually thought of changing gear as a hassle or something that makes driving un-fun. Stop and go traffic is a game, where the goal is to not brake. Gears give me an additional way to achieve that goal. For me it's way more engaging and helps me pay more attention to the road...

swozey 8y ago
Have you driven a motorcycle or a high horsepower car with a stiff clutch in stop and go traffic? I developed leg problems from my Cobra a decade ago. Sitting in traffic was absolutely miserable. Same with bikes, except there you're also covered in sweat the entire time so it's even less pleasant. My DCT BMW was also annoying in stop and go traffic and I didn't even have to manipulate the gears. I still find shifting to be fun, I mostly drove my BMW in manual DCT mode (dual clutch). But in traffic? I don't want to go near a manual.
- i_am_proteus 8y ago
  If you're on a motorcycle in stop-and-go traffic, just keep it in second gear and lane split. Even if it's not legal. If you're in clogged traffic, They can't get you, and you'll see the fuzz before they see you since you'll be overtaking.
  - swozey 8y ago
    That isn't about the fuzz. People who live in States/Cities (everywhere but CA, right?) where lane splitting is illegal aren't used to lane splitting. They aren't sitting in their cars watching out for bikers and they'll make abrupt lane changes without even looking for you. That's incredibly dangerous. I moved from FL (lane splitting is illegal but people seem used to it) to TX (no splitting) and doing that is a death wish here. Obviously you know your areas driving culture better than me but there's definitely places I wouldn't do that. Hell you'll probably just piss off people in TX and they'll run you over out of spite. Territorial drivers.
    - i_am_proteus 8y ago
      I've approached the practice with caution every time I've moved. I'm currently in California, and drivers here are more accepting of the practice due to legality, but for every three drivers who move over to give me more room, there's one who's texting and swerving.
    - jnicholasp 8y ago
      Anyone riding a motorcycle who is simply blindly counting on other drivers to see them, follow all the rules of the road carefully, and never do anything unexpected, is not going to last long. Everything motorcyclists do has to be done in such a way that it will still be safe even if the other cars around them are all but actively malicious. Fortunately, motorcycles are extremely agile, quick, and small, so it's easy for the attentive, cautious rider to anticipate and avoid most hazards. The trick is just managing to always be sufficiently attentive and cautious.
  - Klathmon 8y ago
    I'd just caution against doing this in some areas. A member of a group I used to ride with decided to stop riding when someone opened their door to stop him from splitting in PA. He smacked into the door, was physically okay, but ended up getting charged with something like "illegal lane change", had his insurance prices skyrocket, and decided to stop riding as he had to drive for his job, and he was worried that another 3-point ticket would get him a 30 day suspension and he'd basically lose his job.
wutangson1 8y ago
"That doesn't make it not obviously worse for the task than an automatic" what in the lawerly language are you trying to say?
- dmoy 8y ago
  Driving stick in traffic really sucks by comparison to an automatic.
  - wutangson1 8y ago
    Thank you. I suppose for me the 'cognitive load' of parsing whole parenthetical phrases and double negatives is more taxing than shifting from 2nd gear back into neutral.

Reason077 8y ago

Charging is really not much of a “cognitive load” in my experience. The navigation system can plan it for you, suggesting exactly where you should charge and how long it’ll take. As for extra time spent charging? I guess there are those out there who really do drive more than 4-5 hours at once without stopping for a meal, stretch, toilet break, etc. But surely they’re a tiny minority.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Do you really always stop for your meal break somewhere there's a supercharger? A meal and a charger are not located in the same place for most people most of the time.
- Reason077 8y ago
  Right now you might be planning stops according to where there’s a supercharger. But charging networks are expanding all the time. This is especially in Europe, where in a Model 3, you also have the choice of using competing CCS charging networks like Ionity.

prolepunk 8y ago

I object to that! Whenever I get stuck in traffic going uphill, my left leg gets a good workout.

natch 8y ago

If cognitive load is what you care about, you should try autopilot’s cruise control with distance keeping. Stress erased from driving and cognitive load lifted almost completely. The win from this overcomes any cognitive load from thinking about charging by a factor of 100 or more in my experience. Most people are blown away by this when they get it. Of course it’s not unique to Tesla but it’s a big benefit.

patejam 8y ago
You mean the cruise control that's already killed people? The cognitive load of not trusting cars around you is now increased by having to worry about not trusting your own car. That's crazy to me. I'm pretty convinced most stress caused by driving is just people driving way too aggressively.
- bdamm 8y ago
  The conversation was about using AP in very heavy traffic, which has killed nobody. > I'm pretty convinced most stress caused by driving is just people driving way too aggressively. In my experience it is much more stressful to be on the lookout for drivers that just aren't paying attention. They exhibit no bad behavior until the poorly timed lane change, missed light, etc.
- keldaris 8y ago
  > I'm pretty convinced most stress caused by driving is just people driving way too aggressively. In my experience, the exact opposite seems to be the case. Aggressive drivers tend to move with a purpose, pay attention and react logically (even if recklessly) to events on the road. By contrast, the bored people zoning out while driving, the people stuck on their phones or just clogging up the fast lane while driving under the speed limit are unpredictable (and when they do wake up, they tend to panic) and cause problems all around themselves as everyone else is forced to adjust. People who can't be bothered to care about driving while doing it are much worse than people who care too much.
  - patejam 8y ago

cogman10 8y ago

Having just done a 1000 mile (1600km) road trip through Oregon, it wasn't really that big of a hassle. I told my car where I wanted to go, the tesla routing software put down pins on where to charge and told me how long to charge. That was it. If anything, planning for gas stops is much more of a burden, because usually as you are driving, once you get to ~1/4 full you are thinking to yourself "Ok, where can I stop to get gas? Is there a place close enough? Which stations have the best price?" With this, all of that cognitive load was gone and handled for me by a smart routing computer.

dexterdog 8y ago
If you are on a highway with 1/4 tank you are likely to have a number of options before you get close to running out an you can be taking just about any route you want. With a supercharger dependency you are highly limited.
- vsl 8y ago
  See your sibling comment.
  - dexterdog 8y ago
    What does that have to do with chargers? There are less chargers than gas stations.
Zanni 8y ago
I had this exact problem in my gas-powered rental car recently, driving between Vegas and LA. The gas stations along the 15 were hectic, and I was planning to turn off onto a more scenic route which, I imagined, would have low-key, low-traffic gas stations. Surprise--there wasn't a gas station for over 100 miles! Double surprise--there was no cell reception either!