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The geopolitical motive is obviously there. US Navy ships in the area are there for that. What would people say if Russia and Cuba conducted joint navy exercis

The geopolitical motive is obviously there. US Navy ships in the area are there for that. What would people say if Russia and Cuba conducted joint navy exercises 25 miles off Key West?

WillPostForFood 7y ago
A few points for perspective. The article states that US Ships didn't sail within 25 miles of the shoal. The ownership of the shoal is disputed, unlike Key West. The shoal is also over 400 miles from mainland China (140 miles from the Philippines).
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  "Ownership" goes to whoever can hold to a piece of land. That's how the US and everyone else did it. Case in point is Commander Perry planting the US flag on Key West and no-one else being able to challenge it. Guam (and of course the Philippines) taken from the Spanish following the war of 1898, etc. China has learned that and won't let borders in its vicinity being decided by Western powers anymore. The reality is that no-one is going to take those islands away from China anymore as China understood the importance of physical occupation. Those islands are thousands of miles from the US's mainland. Those exercises are geopolitical muscle flexing. Of course they are.
  - openasocket 7y ago
    It's more complicated than that. First, this isn't an island, it's a shoal. The only dry land to speak of is 2 skerrys (32 square feet of land in total). They are uninhabited. Second, the shoal is 400 miles from mainland China. It's only about a 100 miles from the Philippines, who have a claim on the shoal. Third, UN arbitration has sided with the Philippines. China rejected such arbitration, but of course they would, since they have no real claim here. This isn't just "muscle flexing" it's the US helping out an ally, one that happens to be in the right.
    - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
      People can repeat that the shoal is nearer the Philippines and I can repeat that, using the same examples I already have and others, it is quite irrelevant. The borders in the area where decided by Westerners, China was shortchanged and is now using the Western approach: Land, claim, defend. The reality on the ground is that China (and that really does include both the PRC and Taiwan) claims this area and that it physically occupies it. Unless the Philippines and others propose to start a war the area is therefore de facto Chinese.
      - openasocket 7y ago
        They do not physically occupy the land, you're thinking of the Spratly islands, where they have built several airports and other buildings. The Scarborough Shoal has no buildings of any kind, nor personnel.
        NotPaidToPost 7y ago
        My understanding is that they haven't built any structure yet but that they effectively occupy the shoal by guarding it with coast guard and navy ships: I.e. if you tried to reach the place you'd have to go past the Chinese Navy first.
        NotPaidToPost 7y ago
        Talking Key West made me browse the area on Google maps. I found that one interesting. Reminded me of something. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@24.6285609,-82.8711957,2321m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@24.6285609,-82.8711957,2321m/... Plus ça change...
      - jki275 7y ago
        China's occupation is illegal, both by UNCLOS and directly from the UN -- the Philippines won the case. There have been international conventions for many years on how sea control works. China does whatever it wants -- but that doesn't make the area Chinese, it means they're violating international agreements and conventions and treaties.
nradov 7y ago
The Russian navy does occasionally conduct exercises near Cuba, and in fact did so just last year. People don't say much of anything about it because the Russians are legally allowed to be there. https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article205552879.html https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article205552879.htm...
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  Well, I'm sure that American media aren't going to title "Russia sends US signal with MiG-laden warship off Florida"... But the Russian media might. Always check where those articles come from. Here it's Bloomberg. It's interesting to see the narrative specifically aimed at mainland China when the claim over the South China Sea really is pan-Chinese (that means the PRC and Taiwan make the same claims).
  - nradov 7y ago
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Russia has only a single "MiG-laden warship" and it's a worthless pile of rusty junk which probably couldn't even travel to Cuba and back under it's own power. The US considers it to be a laughing stock, not a serious threat.

The geopolitical motive is obviously there. US Navy ships in the area are there for that. What would people say if Russia and Cuba conducted joint navy exercises 25 miles off Key West?

WillPostForFood 7y ago

A few points for perspective. The article states that US Ships didn't sail within 25 miles of the shoal. The ownership of the shoal is disputed, unlike Key West. The shoal is also over 400 miles from mainland China (140 miles from the Philippines).

NotPaidToPost 7y ago
"Ownership" goes to whoever can hold to a piece of land. That's how the US and everyone else did it. Case in point is Commander Perry planting the US flag on Key West and no-one else being able to challenge it. Guam (and of course the Philippines) taken from the Spanish following the war of 1898, etc. China has learned that and won't let borders in its vicinity being decided by Western powers anymore. The reality is that no-one is going to take those islands away from China anymore as China understood the importance of physical occupation. Those islands are thousands of miles from the US's mainland. Those exercises are geopolitical muscle flexing. Of course they are.
- openasocket 7y ago
  It's more complicated than that. First, this isn't an island, it's a shoal. The only dry land to speak of is 2 skerrys (32 square feet of land in total). They are uninhabited. Second, the shoal is 400 miles from mainland China. It's only about a 100 miles from the Philippines, who have a claim on the shoal. Third, UN arbitration has sided with the Philippines. China rejected such arbitration, but of course they would, since they have no real claim here. This isn't just "muscle flexing" it's the US helping out an ally, one that happens to be in the right.
  - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
    People can repeat that the shoal is nearer the Philippines and I can repeat that, using the same examples I already have and others, it is quite irrelevant. The borders in the area where decided by Westerners, China was shortchanged and is now using the Western approach: Land, claim, defend. The reality on the ground is that China (and that really does include both the PRC and Taiwan) claims this area and that it physically occupies it. Unless the Philippines and others propose to start a war the area is therefore de facto Chinese.
    - openasocket 7y ago
      They do not physically occupy the land, you're thinking of the Spratly islands, where they have built several airports and other buildings. The Scarborough Shoal has no buildings of any kind, nor personnel.
      - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
        My understanding is that they haven't built any structure yet but that they effectively occupy the shoal by guarding it with coast guard and navy ships: I.e. if you tried to reach the place you'd have to go past the Chinese Navy first.
        NotPaidToPost 7y ago
        Talking Key West made me browse the area on Google maps. I found that one interesting. Reminded me of something. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@24.6285609,-82.8711957,2321m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@24.6285609,-82.8711957,2321m/... Plus ça change...
    - jki275 7y ago
      China's occupation is illegal, both by UNCLOS and directly from the UN -- the Philippines won the case. There have been international conventions for many years on how sea control works. China does whatever it wants -- but that doesn't make the area Chinese, it means they're violating international agreements and conventions and treaties.

nradov 7y ago

The Russian navy does occasionally conduct exercises near Cuba, and in fact did so just last year. People don't say much of anything about it because the Russians are legally allowed to be there. https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article205552879.html https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article205552879.htm...

NotPaidToPost 7y ago
Well, I'm sure that American media aren't going to title "Russia sends US signal with MiG-laden warship off Florida"... But the Russian media might. Always check where those articles come from. Here it's Bloomberg. It's interesting to see the narrative specifically aimed at mainland China when the claim over the South China Sea really is pan-Chinese (that means the PRC and Taiwan make the same claims).
- nradov 7y ago
  I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Russia has only a single "MiG-laden warship" and it's a worthless pile of rusty junk which probably couldn't even travel to Cuba and back under it's own power. The US considers it to be a laughing stock, not a serious threat.