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Ok, this is a HIGHLY abbreviated overview that I'm sure other LGBTQ+ folks would say doesn't get it exactly right: If we decouple the idea of gender (societal

Ok, this is a HIGHLY abbreviated overview that I'm sure other LGBTQ+ folks would say doesn't get it exactly right: If we decouple the idea of gender (societal expectations for men/women -- e.g. boys like blue, girls like pink. Boys wear shorts, girls wear skirts.) from the idea of sexual/genetic characteristics, then we can start to discuss what it means to be a man vs what it means to be male. Manliness and femininity are both spectrums -- you can imagine folks who are real tough manly men and folks who are not. We call these two spectrums the gender binary -- people typically fall into the manly spectrum somewhere, or in the feminine spectrum somewhere. Nonbinary folks feel excluded by those spectrums for one reason or another. Nonbinary is an umbrella term that can include people who are agender (e.g. I don't identify with any gender), genderfluid (e.g. sometimes I feel masculine, sometimes feminine), genderqueer (e.g. I'm going to take the elements from each spectrum I like and make my own thing), etc. For a more concrete example, people like David Bowie are often held as icons for the nonbinary community (again, not everyone agrees with me here). Eddie Izzard also famously played with gender. Ruby Rose and Tilda Swinton identify as genderfluid. There's a lot of different people under the broad umbrella of nonbinary. > Can you share some experiences? I've been told, "Your pronouns don't matter". I've had my bathroom use policed (I often feel uncomfortable in mens/womens restrooms and strongly prefer gender neutral spaces). I've had coworkers ask, "So does that mean you fuck men?" in a way that is clearly a set up to a joke. Every day I make a conscious choice on my presentation (clothes, hair style, etc.). I typically choose to present in a masculine way because it makes my life easier, even though it's a presentation I am less happy with. There's a surprising amount of cognitive load for me for something that's relatively mindless for most people. Do I dress in a way that makes me happier, but results in a lot more sideways glances (and possibly violence?) or do I dress in a way that keeps me safer but less happy? I understand that they/them pronoun use is not common, and I'm never upset when I correct people, but some people have told me, point blank, "Your pronouns are wrong and gross" or "I will use they/them, but you should know I'm lying to your face when I do so." These sorts of experiences are distractions from what I really want to do, which is build awesome engineering teams and solve hard technical problems. But they're unfortunately a reality of (at least) the software world in the US and most likely in the broader workplace.

stothrow 8y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience, it sounds like it's much harder than I'd think (as a cis hetero man) to be non-binary. This might be wildly off-topic, but if you wouldn't mind answering, I have a question about workplace bathroom policing. Last week I was leaving the men's bathroom at work and saw someone walking in, who very much looked to me to be a woman. I had a split second to think about if I should say something or not, and didn't say anything. About two seconds later I was walking away and saw this person leaving the bathroom quickly, so I think they were a cis woman and accidentally went into the wrong bathroom. Was not saying anything the right move here? I imagine non-binary folks get a lot of "are you sure this is the right bathroom for you?", and I'd hate to contribute to that accidentally.
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  I'd say most cis folks will pretty instantly recognize when they've accidentally entered the wrong restroom and make a hasty (if somewhat embarrassed) retreat. I generally assume most people are headed to the right spot or will very, very quickly figure out when they've made a mistake. That feeling of, "Oh shit, I don't belong here", btw, is basically what I feel using either gendered restroom. Thankfully, most tech companies try to provide some gender neutral restrooms.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Couple of questions if I may. Do you think you have a right to dictate others use of pronouns, or maybe that they're wrong to use a pronoun that matches your sex (as it appears to them, whether that's factual it counter-factual)? I have a beard, and people always comment on it but I'd rather they not define me by it (honestly, I'm not making this up) - it's hair that grows on me, that's it - should I get to tell them they can't say I'm hairy/bearded (despite that being obviously true)?
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  I'll engage on this, assuming these questions were asked in good faith. > should I get to tell them they can't say I'm hairy/bearded (despite that being obviously true)? You can say, "I'd rather you not refer to me/define me by my beard." Do they have to respect that? Of course not. Does not respecting that mean that they are now knowingly violating a boundary you've specifically asked them to respect? Yep. Sure does. Does knowingly/deliberately violating someone's boundaries make you an asshole? Maybe? Probably? At the very least it's likely to make that person like you less. > Do you think you have a right to dictate others use of pronouns? I have the right to indicate that my pronouns are they/them, just as you can (presumably) indicate yours are he/him. When people deliberately violate that (e.g., if people started calling you 'the bearded lady' or used she to refer to you) I believe I am well within my right to feel disrespected, just as if they had used any other verbal insult. I see it in a similar light to nicknames. If my name was William, and I tell people to please call me William, and someone continually refers to me as Billy despite being asked not to, then I'm going to feel disrespected. I get sir/he/him/his/etc all the time. When it's people I'm close to (colleagues, friends, etc.) I'll gently offer a correction and move on. e.g. "Sorry, my pronouns are they/them, please, continue." I don't bother correcting the gas station attendant or the coffee shop barista. I generally assume most times the wrong pronouns aren't coming from a place of malice -- either someone just forgot or they don't know. I give people a lot of latitude.

stothrow 8y ago

Thanks for sharing your experience, it sounds like it's much harder than I'd think (as a cis hetero man) to be non-binary. This might be wildly off-topic, but if you wouldn't mind answering, I have a question about workplace bathroom policing. Last week I was leaving the men's bathroom at work and saw someone walking in, who very much looked to me to be a woman. I had a split second to think about if I should say something or not, and didn't say anything. About two seconds later I was walking away and saw this person leaving the bathroom quickly, so I think they were a cis woman and accidentally went into the wrong bathroom. Was not saying anything the right move here? I imagine non-binary folks get a lot of "are you sure this is the right bathroom for you?", and I'd hate to contribute to that accidentally.

Pfhreak 8y ago
I'd say most cis folks will pretty instantly recognize when they've accidentally entered the wrong restroom and make a hasty (if somewhat embarrassed) retreat. I generally assume most people are headed to the right spot or will very, very quickly figure out when they've made a mistake. That feeling of, "Oh shit, I don't belong here", btw, is basically what I feel using either gendered restroom. Thankfully, most tech companies try to provide some gender neutral restrooms.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

Couple of questions if I may. Do you think you have a right to dictate others use of pronouns, or maybe that they're wrong to use a pronoun that matches your sex (as it appears to them, whether that's factual it counter-factual)? I have a beard, and people always comment on it but I'd rather they not define me by it (honestly, I'm not making this up) - it's hair that grows on me, that's it - should I get to tell them they can't say I'm hairy/bearded (despite that being obviously true)?

Pfhreak 8y ago
I'll engage on this, assuming these questions were asked in good faith. > should I get to tell them they can't say I'm hairy/bearded (despite that being obviously true)? You can say, "I'd rather you not refer to me/define me by my beard." Do they have to respect that? Of course not. Does not respecting that mean that they are now knowingly violating a boundary you've specifically asked them to respect? Yep. Sure does. Does knowingly/deliberately violating someone's boundaries make you an asshole? Maybe? Probably? At the very least it's likely to make that person like you less. > Do you think you have a right to dictate others use of pronouns? I have the right to indicate that my pronouns are they/them, just as you can (presumably) indicate yours are he/him. When people deliberately violate that (e.g., if people started calling you 'the bearded lady' or used she to refer to you) I believe I am well within my right to feel disrespected, just as if they had used any other verbal insult. I see it in a similar light to nicknames. If my name was William, and I tell people to please call me William, and someone continually refers to me as Billy despite being asked not to, then I'm going to feel disrespected. I get sir/he/him/his/etc all the time. When it's people I'm close to (colleagues, friends, etc.) I'll gently offer a correction and move on. e.g. "Sorry, my pronouns are they/them, please, continue." I don't bother correcting the gas station attendant or the coffee shop barista. I generally assume most times the wrong pronouns aren't coming from a place of malice -- either someone just forgot or they don't know. I give people a lot of latitude.