15 ms·

Bank of America is raising its minimum wage for employees to $20

179 points by iron0013 8y ago

dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
It's hard to divorce this seemingly good news from the reality that this is probably enabled by the fact the companies like BoA don't hire low-wage workers anymore [0]. [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-rising-inequality-consider-the-janitors-at-two-top-companies-then-and-now.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-risi...
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  This is a good point and a good article. If Bank of America like many other companies outsources a lot of its lower-paid positions, and these new standards won't apply to the outsourced jobs, then a higher minimum wage that mostly applies to people that were already being paid that much anyway won't do too much. I wonder if they're going to do something like my employer, and mandate minimum wage and benefits for all of their contractors as well? https://www.forbes.com/sites/rakeenmabud/2019/04/09/googles-new-benefits-policy-and-the-role-of-worker-advocacy/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rakeenmabud/2019/04/09/googles-...
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Ctrl+F "contractor" "0 Results" This move is basically meaningless if it doesn't extend to the temp agencies and businesses BoA buys labor from and contracts with to provide basic services (custodial, POS systems support, etc.). Sure the gesture is nice but it's hollow. Modern BigCos don't hire for low skill, low wage positions unless it's part of their core business. They contract all that out, either they get bodies from temp agencies or they get the entire service provided by a 3rd party.
- 0xDEFC0DE 8y ago
  To pile on, they have been steadily employing less people due to technology: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/17/bank-of-america-ceo-brian-moynihan-on-cutting-100000-jobs.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/17/bank-of-america-ceo-brian-mo...
  - veryworried 8y ago
    As they should. That is the point of technology.
    - 0xDEFC0DE 8y ago
      Unless they are reducing employee counts in favor of hiring contractors, then trying to score political points about a hot-button issue like minimum wage.
      - crumpets 8y ago
        Well then it's not because of technology is it?
        0xDEFC0DE 8y ago
        Might be a bit of both TBH. It’s rarely that cut and dry. The point here is calling out empty PR, but I’m not going to misrepresent an article without proof. I just have suspicions.
    - trophycase 8y ago
      Is that the point of technology?
  - mruts 8y ago
    Is that a problem? Isn't that how technology should work?
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    These jobs aren't really high-quality work. We need less of them, and we need to provide those doing it a safety net or retraining for when they are displaced. Nobody should do factory jobs or other menial work just because we can't think far enough ahead to give them something new to do.
    - BurningFrog 8y ago
mabbo 8y ago
I'm sure there's going to be some legitimate criticisms (they don't have many low paid workers; they're only doing this to win favor with the democrats; he still makes too much money; etc) but I don't really care. It's a good thing to do. They didn't have to do it. They did it. I'll judge people on their actions first, intentions second.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  The concerns you list don't stop this from being a good thing, I agree. My bigger concern is what BoAs rate of low-wage direct employees versus contractors looks like, and will look like in the future. The overall trend seems to be that contracted service work is paid somewhat worse than direct, but also faces no benefits, high firing rates, and far nastier working conditions. I don't have numbers on BoA, and I doubt they'll publicize them. But my concern is that moves like this (without a corresponding guarantee for contractors) create an incentive to offload ever more work into conditions that might be even worse than the current state of affairs. I don't want to undersell this, though. I doubt bank tellers will become contract labor anytime soon, and this will actually represent a significant raise for them.
  - mabbo 8y ago
    If they quickly move now to replace all their tellers to contractors, I will then judge BoA on that action. Until then, good on 'em.
  - Ari_Ugwu 8y ago
    I wonder of 'trickle down economics' works when the money is injected more closely to where it's supposed to trickle from? While I don't think Bank of America has a large percentage of skill workers compared to knowledge workers I think this sends a very forward thinking message. The debt waters are rising for both consumer and corporate and I assume we'll see a correction soon that once again hits middle class and lower class folks _almost_ ready to make a mobility play. $20/hr during the coming lean times could be just enough to keep some folks from losing too much ground. I'm just guessing at the rationale but it does kind of make me want to switch banks in support. Next few years could get rough for +60% of the US population.
nkrisc 8y ago
I'm curious what percentage of their workforce was below this rate to begin with? I'm assuming the jobs that would be most affected by this are contracted out and won't be affect after all.
- bluedino 8y ago
  Bank tellers start out at about the same as some retail/fast food workers. In the past, to make $20/hr you had to be a 'personal banker' where you had to push products like checking accounts, loans, and retirement accounts on your customers.
legitster 8y ago
Of all the service sector jobs, bank tellers being underpaid is the most ridiculous. If you are a bartender, I expect you to understand drinks. If you are a musician, I expect you to listen to music. If you work in a bank, I hope you have some financial stability!
- TheHypnotist 8y ago
  The responsibility put on tellers is pretty high as well. $10/hr is not enough.
- lamarpye 8y ago
  Aren't bank teller wages determined by the market? I don't see how they are underpaid if their salaries are market driven. Edit: Strange. Getting some down votes. Is it because bank teller wages are not market driven or is it pointing out that fact is discouraged on this site.
halfjew222 8y ago
The cynic in me says this: Great press for BoA perfectly timed where automation will completely remove the need for these low level jobs within 5-10 years.
- Dirlewanger 8y ago
  Most likely. The only people keeping bank branches alive are boomers/older Gen X.
crench 8y ago
>by 2021
forkLding 8y ago
This will also attract more people to want to work for BoA, right now their average teller salary is $13/hr so this is probably an amazing improvement. https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/new-york-city-teller-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM615_KO14,20.htm https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/new-york-city-teller-salar...
couterSpell 8y ago
This is great news. Now let's just make sure they don't replace employees with lower-paid contractors. I'm always suspicious when these minimum wage hikes don't talk about contractors.
rchaud 8y ago
> The move is also a sign of increasing wage inflation for thriving companies. This phrasing doesn't sit well with me. If the company is thriving, as it is, then why would you term a wage increase as "inflation"? The wages aren't tied to "shareholder value" or other metrics the BoD discusses before setting executive compensation. Also, the article should be retitled to "BoA raising minimum wage to $17", or "plans to raise wages to $20 by 2021". Makes it sound like fait accompli otherwise, which it certainly is not.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > why would you term a wage increase as "inflation"? Prices rising for the same product (the same labour) is 'inflation'. That's just the definition of the word.
  - maerF0x0 8y ago
    How does increased productivity factor into that term? Seems it's not a like for like comparison if productivity is increasing YoY.
    - mcherm 8y ago
      For employees who are paid by the piece (paid in proportion to how much they produce) inflation with consist of paying more per piece. But these employees are paid by the hour. Regardless of how productive they are, they are getting paid to fix salary per hour of work. I think productivity does not factor in at all.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Inflation is an average across all products, weighted by how much the average person spends on them. A single price increase is not inflation, any more than a single stock going up means that the market went up. It might be a sign of inflation, or it might be offset by decreases in other prices.
- snarf21 8y ago
  I think it has nothing to do with the company thriving. They have to do this now that more and more states are moving fast food order takers to $15/hour. There has to be some upside to work for BoA instead. Raising minimum wage will definitely force low end wages up but my worry is will it also raise prices by the same percentage (within some small timeframe) such that the employees buying power remains the same. The question is always "What can you buy with the money you have left?". I also worry that this devalues people who went to trade schools for low wage jobs, things like an EMT. They may only be making $22/hour and they invested a lot of time and money to do better than fast food. I don't know if there is enough money to give these people a percentage raise even to maintain their buying power. These economic systems are super complex and interesting (even though I barely understand them).
bmmayer1 8y ago
This is nice, but it's important to realize this headline is not really about minimum wage. The debate about minimum wage, of course, is about how wages should be set by law, not about how much companies choose to pay their employees.
- ralusek 8y ago
  That debate is simple, though. They shouldn't be set by law, because it removes jobs from the market and disproportionately punishes businesses that rely on low-skill employment. Why is McDonalds morally responsible for rectifying the problem of poverty, but SpaceX and Microsoft are relatively unaffected? And we already know that minimum wage laws simply accelerate us towards the threshold where employees priced out versus automated alternatives. There are also entire industries that could become economically unviable despite the fact that the employer and employee had previously agreed to the terms of the employment arrangement. UBI or infrastructure spending are much more sensible solutions to what is a much broader problem.
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago
    The corollary is why should the state (ie tax payers) subsidize Baristas and Fast food workers. Nurses Doctors etc there is an obvious moral incentive.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      You mean like the state through pension funds invest in VC funds that subsidize money losing companies who can then pay high salaries to white collar workers? If companies that can’t be profitable and pay a wage thst you think they deserve shouldn’t exist is kind of a dangerous thing to say on a site supported by a VC company....
      - C1sc0cat 8y ago
        Realy was thinking about the tax credits system in the UK ie benefits paid to low paid workers. And to be blunt if I was a LP / Shareholder in a fund/company ran by PG I absolutely would expect hi to invest in companies that will be profitable and not rely on government subvention to be profitable. I am a small shareholder in PE investment companies both UK, USA and elsewhere.
tyingq 8y ago
I imagine there's a parallel plan to drastically reduce the total number of their lowest pay tier workers. With contractors and more automation.
dwighttk 8y ago
Good for their employees... Also I quit using Bank of America years ago because they were more interested in making money off of me via fees than providing any sort of service.
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  Bank of America made it to my permanent boycott list after they bought my MBNA credit card and my mortgage, and then proceeded to pull every possible shenanigan to try to squeeze more money out of me. The next note I write will have a clause specifically saying that if it is ever sold to BoA, or serviced by them, the remainder of the debt owed on the note will be discharged immediately. And if that scuttles the financing, so be it. I never wanted to be their customer, and they forced me into it; that's the only way I can think of to keep their business practices out of my life.
- smrtinsert 8y ago
  What are you using now? I'd like to move off of them but have no exit strategy.
  - dwighttk 8y ago
    I moved to ING which was absorbed by CapitalOne. I've had very few problems with CapitalOne. There are no branches near me so I occasionally have to ask friends to write me a check if I have some cash I need to deposit. I half-heartedly looked for a credit union to join, but every one I found seemed to be for groups of employees I'm not a member of.
osullivj 8y ago
I work for Bank of America Merrill Lynch (BAML) in London; I've been here 18 months as a contractor, and I'm switching to perm. Why? Because BAML is hands down the most pleasant, civilized and supportive investment bank environment I've encountered in 22 years in trading systems development with Chase Manhattan, JP Morgan, Deutsche, CIBC and Barclays. Work life balance, and "bring your whole self to work" are not just slogans here.
NoblePublius 8y ago
Because unemployment is low and skilled labor is expensive. No other reason.
- moate 8y ago
  I mean off the top of my head: More and more states are passing $15+ minimum wage laws and they'll need to compete, because saying you pay people more without context (like how many people will be laid off or converted to contractors) can be good PR, because you realized you were already paying all of these people approximately that rate so you can just streamline your hiring negotiations and save money. There's plenty of reasonable possibilities here.
  - NoblePublius 8y ago
    Pols increase the minimum wage after business signals it has to pay that wage anyway. That way the pols can pretend they do something
nintendo95 8y ago
To me as someone who is in no way expert on automation or an economist but someone who knows how profit oriented big business is, especially banks, I have a question: this looks to me like they expect so much automation happening in the future that they can afford the move? Isn't that case with McDonald's too, where they can have self-serving locations in near future, so no problem with raising minimum hourly rates? The ATMs nowadays do so much on their own. I was taken by surprise when last time I had 5 of my checks scanned and deposited cash into my checkings by a <big bank name here> ATM recently. No human interaction what-so-ever. So I can withdraw money using ATM, I can add money using ATM, and I can cash/deposit checks using ATM. Isn't that like 99% of what their 90% customers do? Isn't that the case that in 5-10 years they will need one person on premises to handle the remaining cases? So then that person can be making 20usd/hr, why not? If they're replacing 4-5 other workers, this is savings anyway. Of course this won't touch things like mortgages or auto-loans. For now that is... right?
- bluetidepro 8y ago
  > The ATMs nowadays do so much on their own. Agreed. And ever more so, the mobile apps do a ton themselves. I absolutely love that that I can just deposit checks right from my banking mobile app, instead of having to go to the bank or an ATM.
- ghaff 8y ago
  The only thing that's really new in the last 10 years (or more) though is depositing through mobile apps. I've been doing that with ATMs for a very long time. I maybe go into a bank branch once every couple of years for some reason or another. I'm always a bit floored by just how much prime retail real estate bank branches consume in a typical city. I guess it's a form of advertising. (Of course, the same thing is true of mobile phone stores.)
all2 8y ago
This thread is plagued by a rather insidious idea that has bubbled up in recent history: the idea of "human capital" in terms of the "greater good". Sentiments like "people shouldn't be doing jobs that can be automated" or "machines should do the work instead, we need more useful jobs for those people" stink of the ideas that 1) people must serve some societal purpose, 2) that they are not fit to decide their own purpose, and 3) they are not fit to determine what has value to them. These values are actually now embedded in U.S.A. policies and major non-profits, like "No Child Left Behind", and the Gates Foundation, or "School to Work". (A tangent: we aren't enabling people to learn and to think, we are teaching them to follow directions. Curiosity seems to be a waning capability of many kids and we seem to be slipping towards a Soviet style of teaching in public schools - which discourages self-generated thought and questions.) I'm not bringing this up because I'm a Luddite. I rather like the idea of automating things, actually. I don't think our current, popular, justifications are healthy. Rather, on an interpersonal level, I think some of the justifications in this thread are codependent, controlling, and uncaring.
- iscrewyou 8y ago
  As I’ve grown older and started focusing more on politics and the state of the nation, I started realizing that reconciliation is not abundant in the US politics and minds of people. Your comment is one of example. There are comments about increasing automation and policies of that effect but no policy or recognition how job losses will be coped with. Apparently it’s ok to permanently remove jobs but universal basic income is non-negotiable. Another example is cutting of taxes, but then increasing expenditures. Or not increasing taxes as expenditures go up. Somehow things just don’t reconcile. Maybe that’s just how politics is. But if there was reconciliation of things, we would be in a better place (or an even better place?) Edit: spelling loses to losses.
  - all2 8y ago
    > Apparently it’s ok to permanently remove jobs but universal basic income is non-negotiable. Are you generalizing across all "young people"? Or are you assuming what I mean? I was not trying to argue that we as a society, and especially as individuals, shouldn't help the displaced. What I have a problem with is the essentially Communist rhetoric we are using to justify removal from and placement in jobs. > Or not increasing taxes as expenditures go up. Somehow things just don’t reconcile. Maybe that’s just how politics is. A frequent conversation between a close friend of mine and myself is one that highlights these inconsistencies. I think the core issue is a fundamental lack of understanding on the part of the politician/person. We call it "bumper sticker" politics. Everyone wants a drop-the-mic moment, the feel vindicated, to feel justified, to feel right. It is a scary thing to be wrong, even about trivial things. If a person possesses functional introspective capabilities, being wrong about something can shake a person's sense of identity. Generally, I think that fear is the cause of 1) lack of introspection, which leads to 2) "yelling" meaningless phrases in an attempt to articulate a political opinion they don't understand.
tracker1 8y ago
They've probably outsourced most of their cleaning and cafeteria services, so not sure if that is inclusive. Otherwise it's not really surprising to see salaries in that range.
ArtDev 8y ago
Whenever I think about Bank of America, I remember this: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-florida-foreclosed-angry-homeowner-bofa/story?id=13775638 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-florida-foreclo... "On June 3, Nyerges, two sheriff's deputies and a moving truck showed up at the local BofA branch. The deputies informed the manager that he could either pay the Nyerges' legal fees— $2,500—or the movers would start taking away the bank's furniture and cash" Priceless justice!
ArtDev 8y ago
Years ago, somehow they managed to deduct someones else's check from my account. I would never ever do business with Bank of America because of the criminal home seizures during the great recession.
RickJWagner 8y ago
Wow, $20 is good pay for a teller. Nice to be working for BofA with that going on. Second thought: Wages are rising, jobs are plentiful. But what happens when the roaring economy changes? Will BofA stay the course?

179 points by iron0013 8y ago

It's hard to divorce this seemingly good news from the reality that this is probably enabled by the fact the companies like BoA don't hire low-wage workers anymore [0]. [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-rising-inequality-consider-the-janitors-at-two-top-companies-then-and-now.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-risi...

CydeWeys 8y ago
This is a good point and a good article. If Bank of America like many other companies outsources a lot of its lower-paid positions, and these new standards won't apply to the outsourced jobs, then a higher minimum wage that mostly applies to people that were already being paid that much anyway won't do too much. I wonder if they're going to do something like my employer, and mandate minimum wage and benefits for all of their contractors as well? https://www.forbes.com/sites/rakeenmabud/2019/04/09/googles-new-benefits-policy-and-the-role-of-worker-advocacy/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rakeenmabud/2019/04/09/googles-...

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Ctrl+F "contractor" "0 Results" This move is basically meaningless if it doesn't extend to the temp agencies and businesses BoA buys labor from and contracts with to provide basic services (custodial, POS systems support, etc.). Sure the gesture is nice but it's hollow. Modern BigCos don't hire for low skill, low wage positions unless it's part of their core business. They contract all that out, either they get bodies from temp agencies or they get the entire service provided by a 3rd party.

0xDEFC0DE 8y ago
To pile on, they have been steadily employing less people due to technology: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/17/bank-of-america-ceo-brian-moynihan-on-cutting-100000-jobs.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/17/bank-of-america-ceo-brian-mo...
- veryworried 8y ago
  As they should. That is the point of technology.
  - 0xDEFC0DE 8y ago
    Unless they are reducing employee counts in favor of hiring contractors, then trying to score political points about a hot-button issue like minimum wage.
    - crumpets 8y ago
      Well then it's not because of technology is it?
      - 0xDEFC0DE 8y ago
        Might be a bit of both TBH. It’s rarely that cut and dry. The point here is calling out empty PR, but I’m not going to misrepresent an article without proof. I just have suspicions.
  - trophycase 8y ago
    Is that the point of technology?
- mruts 8y ago
  Is that a problem? Isn't that how technology should work?
- arcticbull 8y ago
  These jobs aren't really high-quality work. We need less of them, and we need to provide those doing it a safety net or retraining for when they are displaced. Nobody should do factory jobs or other menial work just because we can't think far enough ahead to give them something new to do.
  - BurningFrog 8y ago

mabbo 8y ago

I'm sure there's going to be some legitimate criticisms (they don't have many low paid workers; they're only doing this to win favor with the democrats; he still makes too much money; etc) but I don't really care. It's a good thing to do. They didn't have to do it. They did it. I'll judge people on their actions first, intentions second.

Bartweiss 8y ago
The concerns you list don't stop this from being a good thing, I agree. My bigger concern is what BoAs rate of low-wage direct employees versus contractors looks like, and will look like in the future. The overall trend seems to be that contracted service work is paid somewhat worse than direct, but also faces no benefits, high firing rates, and far nastier working conditions. I don't have numbers on BoA, and I doubt they'll publicize them. But my concern is that moves like this (without a corresponding guarantee for contractors) create an incentive to offload ever more work into conditions that might be even worse than the current state of affairs. I don't want to undersell this, though. I doubt bank tellers will become contract labor anytime soon, and this will actually represent a significant raise for them.
- mabbo 8y ago
  If they quickly move now to replace all their tellers to contractors, I will then judge BoA on that action. Until then, good on 'em.
- Ari_Ugwu 8y ago
  I wonder of 'trickle down economics' works when the money is injected more closely to where it's supposed to trickle from? While I don't think Bank of America has a large percentage of skill workers compared to knowledge workers I think this sends a very forward thinking message. The debt waters are rising for both consumer and corporate and I assume we'll see a correction soon that once again hits middle class and lower class folks _almost_ ready to make a mobility play. $20/hr during the coming lean times could be just enough to keep some folks from losing too much ground. I'm just guessing at the rationale but it does kind of make me want to switch banks in support. Next few years could get rough for +60% of the US population.

nkrisc 8y ago

I'm curious what percentage of their workforce was below this rate to begin with? I'm assuming the jobs that would be most affected by this are contracted out and won't be affect after all.

bluedino 8y ago
Bank tellers start out at about the same as some retail/fast food workers. In the past, to make $20/hr you had to be a 'personal banker' where you had to push products like checking accounts, loans, and retirement accounts on your customers.

legitster 8y ago

Of all the service sector jobs, bank tellers being underpaid is the most ridiculous. If you are a bartender, I expect you to understand drinks. If you are a musician, I expect you to listen to music. If you work in a bank, I hope you have some financial stability!

TheHypnotist 8y ago
The responsibility put on tellers is pretty high as well. $10/hr is not enough.
lamarpye 8y ago
Aren't bank teller wages determined by the market? I don't see how they are underpaid if their salaries are market driven. Edit: Strange. Getting some down votes. Is it because bank teller wages are not market driven or is it pointing out that fact is discouraged on this site.

halfjew222 8y ago

The cynic in me says this: Great press for BoA perfectly timed where automation will completely remove the need for these low level jobs within 5-10 years.

Dirlewanger 8y ago
Most likely. The only people keeping bank branches alive are boomers/older Gen X.

crench 8y ago

>by 2021

forkLding 8y ago

This will also attract more people to want to work for BoA, right now their average teller salary is $13/hr so this is probably an amazing improvement. https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/new-york-city-teller-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM615_KO14,20.htm https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/new-york-city-teller-salar...

couterSpell 8y ago

This is great news. Now let's just make sure they don't replace employees with lower-paid contractors. I'm always suspicious when these minimum wage hikes don't talk about contractors.

rchaud 8y ago

> The move is also a sign of increasing wage inflation for thriving companies. This phrasing doesn't sit well with me. If the company is thriving, as it is, then why would you term a wage increase as "inflation"? The wages aren't tied to "shareholder value" or other metrics the BoD discusses before setting executive compensation. Also, the article should be retitled to "BoA raising minimum wage to $17", or "plans to raise wages to $20 by 2021". Makes it sound like fait accompli otherwise, which it certainly is not.

chrisseaton 8y ago
> why would you term a wage increase as "inflation"? Prices rising for the same product (the same labour) is 'inflation'. That's just the definition of the word.
- maerF0x0 8y ago
  How does increased productivity factor into that term? Seems it's not a like for like comparison if productivity is increasing YoY.
  - mcherm 8y ago
    For employees who are paid by the piece (paid in proportion to how much they produce) inflation with consist of paying more per piece. But these employees are paid by the hour. Regardless of how productive they are, they are getting paid to fix salary per hour of work. I think productivity does not factor in at all.
- skybrian 8y ago
  Inflation is an average across all products, weighted by how much the average person spends on them. A single price increase is not inflation, any more than a single stock going up means that the market went up. It might be a sign of inflation, or it might be offset by decreases in other prices.
snarf21 8y ago
I think it has nothing to do with the company thriving. They have to do this now that more and more states are moving fast food order takers to $15/hour. There has to be some upside to work for BoA instead. Raising minimum wage will definitely force low end wages up but my worry is will it also raise prices by the same percentage (within some small timeframe) such that the employees buying power remains the same. The question is always "What can you buy with the money you have left?". I also worry that this devalues people who went to trade schools for low wage jobs, things like an EMT. They may only be making $22/hour and they invested a lot of time and money to do better than fast food. I don't know if there is enough money to give these people a percentage raise even to maintain their buying power. These economic systems are super complex and interesting (even though I barely understand them).

bmmayer1 8y ago

This is nice, but it's important to realize this headline is not really about minimum wage. The debate about minimum wage, of course, is about how wages should be set by law, not about how much companies choose to pay their employees.

ralusek 8y ago
That debate is simple, though. They shouldn't be set by law, because it removes jobs from the market and disproportionately punishes businesses that rely on low-skill employment. Why is McDonalds morally responsible for rectifying the problem of poverty, but SpaceX and Microsoft are relatively unaffected? And we already know that minimum wage laws simply accelerate us towards the threshold where employees priced out versus automated alternatives. There are also entire industries that could become economically unviable despite the fact that the employer and employee had previously agreed to the terms of the employment arrangement. UBI or infrastructure spending are much more sensible solutions to what is a much broader problem.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  The corollary is why should the state (ie tax payers) subsidize Baristas and Fast food workers. Nurses Doctors etc there is an obvious moral incentive.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    You mean like the state through pension funds invest in VC funds that subsidize money losing companies who can then pay high salaries to white collar workers? If companies that can’t be profitable and pay a wage thst you think they deserve shouldn’t exist is kind of a dangerous thing to say on a site supported by a VC company....
    - C1sc0cat 8y ago
      Realy was thinking about the tax credits system in the UK ie benefits paid to low paid workers. And to be blunt if I was a LP / Shareholder in a fund/company ran by PG I absolutely would expect hi to invest in companies that will be profitable and not rely on government subvention to be profitable. I am a small shareholder in PE investment companies both UK, USA and elsewhere.

tyingq 8y ago

I imagine there's a parallel plan to drastically reduce the total number of their lowest pay tier workers. With contractors and more automation.

dwighttk 8y ago

Good for their employees... Also I quit using Bank of America years ago because they were more interested in making money off of me via fees than providing any sort of service.

logfromblammo 8y ago
Bank of America made it to my permanent boycott list after they bought my MBNA credit card and my mortgage, and then proceeded to pull every possible shenanigan to try to squeeze more money out of me. The next note I write will have a clause specifically saying that if it is ever sold to BoA, or serviced by them, the remainder of the debt owed on the note will be discharged immediately. And if that scuttles the financing, so be it. I never wanted to be their customer, and they forced me into it; that's the only way I can think of to keep their business practices out of my life.
smrtinsert 8y ago
What are you using now? I'd like to move off of them but have no exit strategy.
- dwighttk 8y ago
  I moved to ING which was absorbed by CapitalOne. I've had very few problems with CapitalOne. There are no branches near me so I occasionally have to ask friends to write me a check if I have some cash I need to deposit. I half-heartedly looked for a credit union to join, but every one I found seemed to be for groups of employees I'm not a member of.

osullivj 8y ago

I work for Bank of America Merrill Lynch (BAML) in London; I've been here 18 months as a contractor, and I'm switching to perm. Why? Because BAML is hands down the most pleasant, civilized and supportive investment bank environment I've encountered in 22 years in trading systems development with Chase Manhattan, JP Morgan, Deutsche, CIBC and Barclays. Work life balance, and "bring your whole self to work" are not just slogans here.

NoblePublius 8y ago

Because unemployment is low and skilled labor is expensive. No other reason.

moate 8y ago
I mean off the top of my head: More and more states are passing $15+ minimum wage laws and they'll need to compete, because saying you pay people more without context (like how many people will be laid off or converted to contractors) can be good PR, because you realized you were already paying all of these people approximately that rate so you can just streamline your hiring negotiations and save money. There's plenty of reasonable possibilities here.
- NoblePublius 8y ago
  Pols increase the minimum wage after business signals it has to pay that wage anyway. That way the pols can pretend they do something

nintendo95 8y ago

To me as someone who is in no way expert on automation or an economist but someone who knows how profit oriented big business is, especially banks, I have a question: this looks to me like they expect so much automation happening in the future that they can afford the move? Isn't that case with McDonald's too, where they can have self-serving locations in near future, so no problem with raising minimum hourly rates? The ATMs nowadays do so much on their own. I was taken by surprise when last time I had 5 of my checks scanned and deposited cash into my checkings by a <big bank name here> ATM recently. No human interaction what-so-ever. So I can withdraw money using ATM, I can add money using ATM, and I can cash/deposit checks using ATM. Isn't that like 99% of what their 90% customers do? Isn't that the case that in 5-10 years they will need one person on premises to handle the remaining cases? So then that person can be making 20usd/hr, why not? If they're replacing 4-5 other workers, this is savings anyway. Of course this won't touch things like mortgages or auto-loans. For now that is... right?

bluetidepro 8y ago
> The ATMs nowadays do so much on their own. Agreed. And ever more so, the mobile apps do a ton themselves. I absolutely love that that I can just deposit checks right from my banking mobile app, instead of having to go to the bank or an ATM.
ghaff 8y ago
The only thing that's really new in the last 10 years (or more) though is depositing through mobile apps. I've been doing that with ATMs for a very long time. I maybe go into a bank branch once every couple of years for some reason or another. I'm always a bit floored by just how much prime retail real estate bank branches consume in a typical city. I guess it's a form of advertising. (Of course, the same thing is true of mobile phone stores.)

all2 8y ago

This thread is plagued by a rather insidious idea that has bubbled up in recent history: the idea of "human capital" in terms of the "greater good". Sentiments like "people shouldn't be doing jobs that can be automated" or "machines should do the work instead, we need more useful jobs for those people" stink of the ideas that 1) people must serve some societal purpose, 2) that they are not fit to decide their own purpose, and 3) they are not fit to determine what has value to them. These values are actually now embedded in U.S.A. policies and major non-profits, like "No Child Left Behind", and the Gates Foundation, or "School to Work". (A tangent: we aren't enabling people to learn and to think, we are teaching them to follow directions. Curiosity seems to be a waning capability of many kids and we seem to be slipping towards a Soviet style of teaching in public schools - which discourages self-generated thought and questions.) I'm not bringing this up because I'm a Luddite. I rather like the idea of automating things, actually. I don't think our current, popular, justifications are healthy. Rather, on an interpersonal level, I think some of the justifications in this thread are codependent, controlling, and uncaring.

iscrewyou 8y ago
As I’ve grown older and started focusing more on politics and the state of the nation, I started realizing that reconciliation is not abundant in the US politics and minds of people. Your comment is one of example. There are comments about increasing automation and policies of that effect but no policy or recognition how job losses will be coped with. Apparently it’s ok to permanently remove jobs but universal basic income is non-negotiable. Another example is cutting of taxes, but then increasing expenditures. Or not increasing taxes as expenditures go up. Somehow things just don’t reconcile. Maybe that’s just how politics is. But if there was reconciliation of things, we would be in a better place (or an even better place?) Edit: spelling loses to losses.
- all2 8y ago
  > Apparently it’s ok to permanently remove jobs but universal basic income is non-negotiable. Are you generalizing across all "young people"? Or are you assuming what I mean? I was not trying to argue that we as a society, and especially as individuals, shouldn't help the displaced. What I have a problem with is the essentially Communist rhetoric we are using to justify removal from and placement in jobs. > Or not increasing taxes as expenditures go up. Somehow things just don’t reconcile. Maybe that’s just how politics is. A frequent conversation between a close friend of mine and myself is one that highlights these inconsistencies. I think the core issue is a fundamental lack of understanding on the part of the politician/person. We call it "bumper sticker" politics. Everyone wants a drop-the-mic moment, the feel vindicated, to feel justified, to feel right. It is a scary thing to be wrong, even about trivial things. If a person possesses functional introspective capabilities, being wrong about something can shake a person's sense of identity. Generally, I think that fear is the cause of 1) lack of introspection, which leads to 2) "yelling" meaningless phrases in an attempt to articulate a political opinion they don't understand.

tracker1 8y ago

They've probably outsourced most of their cleaning and cafeteria services, so not sure if that is inclusive. Otherwise it's not really surprising to see salaries in that range.

ArtDev 8y ago

Whenever I think about Bank of America, I remember this: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-florida-foreclosed-angry-homeowner-bofa/story?id=13775638 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-florida-foreclo... "On June 3, Nyerges, two sheriff's deputies and a moving truck showed up at the local BofA branch. The deputies informed the manager that he could either pay the Nyerges' legal fees— $2,500—or the movers would start taking away the bank's furniture and cash" Priceless justice!

ArtDev 8y ago

Years ago, somehow they managed to deduct someones else's check from my account. I would never ever do business with Bank of America because of the criminal home seizures during the great recession.

RickJWagner 8y ago

Wow, $20 is good pay for a teller. Nice to be working for BofA with that going on. Second thought: Wages are rising, jobs are plentiful. But what happens when the roaring economy changes? Will BofA stay the course?