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I've lived in New York. Why would anyone want San Francisco to become like that? Is NYC cheap, clean, free of homeless people? No, it is crowded, smelly, expens

I've lived in New York. Why would anyone want San Francisco to become like that? Is NYC cheap, clean, free of homeless people? No, it is crowded, smelly, expensive, and only livable for the extremely wealthy.

api 8y ago
The mistake here is assuming that if SF grows it must become NYC. What if it could be better? There are many other even higher density cities than NYC in the world with much better policies and quality of life. Look to those.
- mikeyouse 8y ago
  Right? This keeps coming up on the neighborhood FB groups whenever anyone discusses SB50 or any changes. "We don't want to become like NYC, where are all these people going to go??" San Francisco could double its population and still be ~30% less dense than Paris is. Let's aim for that. Paris is generally considered to be an okay place.
  - rb808 8y ago
    > Paris is generally considered to be an okay place. Lol do you know anyone who lives there? It has one of the highest property prices and rents in the world.
    - mikeyouse 8y ago
      > Lol do you know anyone who lives there. Yes I do.. > It has one of the highest property prices and rents in the world. It's still cheaper than San Francisco.
    - Finnucane 8y ago
      But you can get a great croissant for 1 euro.
- Finnucane 8y ago
  Union City, New Jersey?
gwern 8y ago
Here's a quick test for you. Next time you go to SF, count how many dogs you see vs children. Then compare the ratio to NYC. Then tell me again about which city is not 'livable'.
- Finnucane 8y ago
  Yes, people who keep dogs in NYC apartments are plain nuts.
- rlanday 8y ago
  To a very close approximation, the only place I’ve ever seen a nuclear family with kids in New York is Trump Tower.
  - Finnucane 8y ago
    In Park Slope in Brooklyn you are in constant danger of being run over by a baby buggy.
danharaj 8y ago
> and only livable for the extremely wealthy. Do you mean just Manhattan? There are five boroughs.
- Finnucane 8y ago
  I lived in Brooklyn, during an enormous construction boom, and ended up getting driven out by gentrification as the neighborhood got overrun with high-end condo buildings.
  - danharaj 8y ago
    Yea, that sucks. The edges of Queens and Brooklyn are hardly less expensive than most of Manhattan. They're really big boroughs though, and living in Flushing or Forest Hills for example is still quite affordable as is deeper Brooklyn. But now that I think about it, it really is a matter of "when", not "if" the neighborhoods further from Manhattan get too expensive. I'll agree with you in like 5-10 years :[
    - Finnucane 8y ago
      No, not that much in the future. I have a friend who has lived in Flushing for many years. Not long ago they were thinking about getting a bigger apartment, but even with the equity they have, they couldn't do it. It was cheaper for them to buy a weekend place outside of the city. And Flushing is already way the fuck out there.
      - danharaj 8y ago
        I think we are thinking of different standards of "livable".
    - qnsi 8y ago
      So what do you think is the best city for startup employee/founder? I fantasize about winning Green card someday and moving to USA
orangecat 8y ago
I've lived in New York. So have I. Why would anyone want San Francisco to become like that? It would be a significant improvement. NYC is far from perfect, but it has semi-affordable rents (outside of Manhattan), semi-functional transit, and much less excrement.
- rlanday 8y ago
  Nearly all of the subway lines were built many decades ago when construction costs were much cheaper. It’s basically impossible for San Francisco to ever build such a comprehensive system at this point. Consider that they just spent $2 billion on a train station that doesn’t have any train tracks serving it and was only open for six weeks before it was closed because it was found to be structurally unsound. If they do ever build the train tracks (estimated to take ten years and cost $6 billion), they didn’t build enough platforms for the number of trains they want to run.
  - api 8y ago
    > Consider that they just spent $2 billion on a train station This can't be anything other than corruption or incompetence. There is absolutely no way it can possibly cost that much. The new One World Trade Center (Freedom Tower) cost about $3.8 billion, so almost twice that, but that should give you a scale... and this was done in a city not known for cheap construction costs. SF's development and planning culture is just epically bad.
Redoubts 8y ago
> I've lived in New York. Why would anyone want San Francisco to become like that? Yeah, I'd hate for SF to be a world class city.
- Finnucane 8y ago
  It's not now?
  - NTDF9 8y ago
    >> It's not now? You are kidding right? The only city in US that even compares to world class cities (London, Tokyo, Singapore, Hong Kong, Sydney even Shanghai, Paris) is NYC. SF is beautiful and amazing in its own right but world class is different. Start with public transportation to be world class.
  - Redoubts 8y ago
    No.
manishsharan 8y ago
NYC however has excellent connectivity to Long Island, New Jersey and Connecticut. I used to live in LI and my commute was pretty decent and my rent in LI was very affordable.

api 8y ago

The mistake here is assuming that if SF grows it must become NYC. What if it could be better? There are many other even higher density cities than NYC in the world with much better policies and quality of life. Look to those.

mikeyouse 8y ago
Right? This keeps coming up on the neighborhood FB groups whenever anyone discusses SB50 or any changes. "We don't want to become like NYC, where are all these people going to go??" San Francisco could double its population and still be ~30% less dense than Paris is. Let's aim for that. Paris is generally considered to be an okay place.
- rb808 8y ago
  > Paris is generally considered to be an okay place. Lol do you know anyone who lives there? It has one of the highest property prices and rents in the world.
  - mikeyouse 8y ago
    > Lol do you know anyone who lives there. Yes I do.. > It has one of the highest property prices and rents in the world. It's still cheaper than San Francisco.
  - Finnucane 8y ago
    But you can get a great croissant for 1 euro.
Finnucane 8y ago
Union City, New Jersey?

gwern 8y ago

Here's a quick test for you. Next time you go to SF, count how many dogs you see vs children. Then compare the ratio to NYC. Then tell me again about which city is not 'livable'.

Finnucane 8y ago
Yes, people who keep dogs in NYC apartments are plain nuts.
rlanday 8y ago
To a very close approximation, the only place I’ve ever seen a nuclear family with kids in New York is Trump Tower.
- Finnucane 8y ago
  In Park Slope in Brooklyn you are in constant danger of being run over by a baby buggy.

danharaj 8y ago

> and only livable for the extremely wealthy. Do you mean just Manhattan? There are five boroughs.

Finnucane 8y ago
I lived in Brooklyn, during an enormous construction boom, and ended up getting driven out by gentrification as the neighborhood got overrun with high-end condo buildings.
- danharaj 8y ago
  Yea, that sucks. The edges of Queens and Brooklyn are hardly less expensive than most of Manhattan. They're really big boroughs though, and living in Flushing or Forest Hills for example is still quite affordable as is deeper Brooklyn. But now that I think about it, it really is a matter of "when", not "if" the neighborhoods further from Manhattan get too expensive. I'll agree with you in like 5-10 years :[
  - Finnucane 8y ago
    No, not that much in the future. I have a friend who has lived in Flushing for many years. Not long ago they were thinking about getting a bigger apartment, but even with the equity they have, they couldn't do it. It was cheaper for them to buy a weekend place outside of the city. And Flushing is already way the fuck out there.
    - danharaj 8y ago
      I think we are thinking of different standards of "livable".
  - qnsi 8y ago
    So what do you think is the best city for startup employee/founder? I fantasize about winning Green card someday and moving to USA

orangecat 8y ago

I've lived in New York. So have I. Why would anyone want San Francisco to become like that? It would be a significant improvement. NYC is far from perfect, but it has semi-affordable rents (outside of Manhattan), semi-functional transit, and much less excrement.

rlanday 8y ago
Nearly all of the subway lines were built many decades ago when construction costs were much cheaper. It’s basically impossible for San Francisco to ever build such a comprehensive system at this point. Consider that they just spent $2 billion on a train station that doesn’t have any train tracks serving it and was only open for six weeks before it was closed because it was found to be structurally unsound. If they do ever build the train tracks (estimated to take ten years and cost $6 billion), they didn’t build enough platforms for the number of trains they want to run.
- api 8y ago
  > Consider that they just spent $2 billion on a train station This can't be anything other than corruption or incompetence. There is absolutely no way it can possibly cost that much. The new One World Trade Center (Freedom Tower) cost about $3.8 billion, so almost twice that, but that should give you a scale... and this was done in a city not known for cheap construction costs. SF's development and planning culture is just epically bad.

Redoubts 8y ago

> I've lived in New York. Why would anyone want San Francisco to become like that? Yeah, I'd hate for SF to be a world class city.

Finnucane 8y ago
It's not now?
- NTDF9 8y ago
  >> It's not now? You are kidding right? The only city in US that even compares to world class cities (London, Tokyo, Singapore, Hong Kong, Sydney even Shanghai, Paris) is NYC. SF is beautiful and amazing in its own right but world class is different. Start with public transportation to be world class.
- Redoubts 8y ago
  No.

manishsharan 8y ago

NYC however has excellent connectivity to Long Island, New Jersey and Connecticut. I used to live in LI and my commute was pretty decent and my rent in LI was very affordable.