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From an energy-consumption standpoint, I'm not too surprised at this. They have better uses for their mostly-non-renewable power generation. This will probabl

From an energy-consumption standpoint, I'm not too surprised at this. They have better uses for their mostly-non-renewable power generation. This will probably continue the push towards bitcoin mining in places with stable renewables (like hydro and geothermal). That being said, I just found https://www.coindesk.com/norway-ends-power-tax-subsidy-for-bitcoin-miners https://www.coindesk.com/norway-ends-power-tax-subsidy-for-b..., which makes me wonder if current prices would be able to support mining there. Also, at least part of Washington State is interested: https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/6853387-151/central-washington-doubles-down-on-blockchain https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/6853387-151/central-wa...

benmarten 8y ago
from planet's perspective. everyone can be thankful
- billions 8y ago
  Banks run green. They only require lights in the building, the building, the branches, and the atms, the employee's cars, the oil deals financed, and the wars financed.
  - foepys 8y ago
    Same can be said about the Bitcoin exchanges. Minus the wars maybe but including the drug cartels.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      What drug cartel runs on Bitcoin? I thought it was US Dollar.
  - kacamak 8y ago
    >and the wars created
- sygma 8y ago
  The planet doesn’t care, it will go on. With climate change, humans are at risk, not the planet.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    Humans are at risk of resource shortages. Many species are facing extinction. Nothing bad will happen to the dirt, but if 'planet' means 'biosphere' then it's at the most risk.
    - crimsonalucard 8y ago
      Unlikely Life as we know it is at risk. The planet has been through many extinctions.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        The risk level is nowhere near "everything is wiped out", but the risk level for species in general is higher than the risk level for humans.
    - joesb 8y ago
      New species will arise. That's how evolution works.
mrb 8y ago
"their mostly-non-renewable power generation" Actually, most crypto mines in China are located in Sichuan or Yunnan, precisely because of an oversupply of hydroelectricity. More than a quarter of the world's hydropower is generated in China (350 GW) and most of that is from Sichuan & Yunnan. 350 GW is more hydropower generated than the next three biggest hydro producers combined (US + Brazil + Canada.) Because of the demand-supply imbalance in Sichuan an Yunnan, kWh prices are cheap, hence mining is profitable. ~90% of the electricity in these regions is generated from hydropower. The oversupply is a result of inadequate grid infrastructure preventing the transport of electricity to resell it to neighboring regions, and a slowdown of China's economic growth. Sources: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.renene.2018.01.090 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.renene.2018.01.090 — Hydropower curtailment in Yunnan Province, southwestern China: Constraint analysis and suggestions — "The increasing curtailment of hydropower generation not only caused large-scale waste of sustainable energy [...]" In 2016 alone, Yunnan was forced to waste 15% or 31.4 terawatt-hours of hydroelectricity. https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/chinese-crypto-miners-rush-to-sichuan-for-cheap-hydroelectricity/ https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/chinese-... ("In 2016, for instance, overcapacity from hydropower stations in Sichuan and Yunnan amounted to a whopping 45.6 terawatt hours") It's so bad that China is now restricting the constructions of dams in Sichuan an Yunnan to not exacerbate the overcapacity problem.
- lucb1e 8y ago
  Then why did they even build it there? You know what the demand is going to be in the near future and you know what capacity you're designing for. Was this built purely for mining? Because if so, the money used to build this could have been used elsewhere. People often bring this up when talking about bitcoin mining but it makes no sense to me. How can this be true (and the whole truth)? It sounds like the kind of argument that bitcoin supporters would spread happily. Which I used to be, by the way. I GPU mined back when it was all fun and games. I used to also doubt the claims that bitcoin uses the power of a small country. I assumed some journalist looked at the difficulty, derived the number of hashes that need be done, looked at an average computer in their office, and voila. But then I did the math, taking the hash rate and figuring in the most optimal case, using only the most efficient miners, and to my surprise it's true. A small country of power just being wasted. I'm all for proof of stake networks, but bitcoin just has to die, the sooner the better.
KorematsuFred 8y ago
It is actually other way around. No one mines cryptos where energy in less supply because energy prices tend to be high. The current mining rigs in China are almost exclusively located in regions where energy is cheap and in oversupply. China has many power-plants that must run at certain capacity floor and despite of that the demand is much lower. It makes so much sense to let that energy be used to mine cryptos which is like store of that value. This way energy is not wasted. Chinese move has less to do with energy or environment but more about undermining a threat to their monopoly on currency. Bitcoin mining has a potential to push innovation to invest more in alternative and greener energy sources.
- phreeza 8y ago
  It appears to me that inhibiting mining does not really have a lot to do with usage of Bitcoin as a currency. Even if they managed to completely wipe out mining in China, that would have zero impact on the utility of Bitcoin as a currency in China.
  - KorematsuFred 8y ago
    Do not expect the chinese government agents to understand all that.
crimsonalucard 8y ago
mining bitcoin with renewables is still a waste. You are now wasting renewable energy instead of nonrenewable energy. Both which despite the wording are limited.
- trickstra 8y ago
  "Waste" means you have no use for it. Yet some people are willing to pay for the Bitcoin, they obviously see some use for it... the fact that you don't or can't even imagine what use that might be doesn't make it a "waste". Let's say you go to such place with cheap electricity, start your own business, use that cheap electricity and produce something. If you cannot generate the same profit with your product as the bitcoin miners, then that's a waste. You just wasted electricity on your business that could otherwise be used to mine bitcoins and turn them into more dollars - more value for somebody.
  - crimsonalucard 8y ago
    Humans are not rational beings. They do not always purchase things they need. Fentanyl and Heroin are obvious examples. Obesity is a problem in the united states and represents the over purchasing of food. - Let's say you go to such place with cheap electricity, start your own business, use that cheap electricity and produce something. If you cannot generate the same profit with your product as the bitcoin miners, then that's a waste. You just wasted electricity on your business that could otherwise be used to mine bitcoins and turn them into more dollars - more value for somebody. Value cannot be produced out of thin air. Mining a bitcoin without doing "work" is the equivalent of having a printing press and printing money. No work is done. When you print money it is a form of theft not a form of work. Most countries recognize it and classify it as counterfeit. When you exchange a counterfeit dollar for a real product that required work, you are doing an act of thievery. When you mine a bitcoin then exchange it for real money, it is similar to theft. The only difference is the person you exchange the money with has knowledge about what bitcoin is, and the "work" (nothing) you did to get it. Sort of like how when a drug addict buys some heroin he's either in too deep or for users just starting out, he's ignorant. A currency that constantly uses up energy is more wasteful than a currency that does not. Simple logic.

benmarten 8y ago

from planet's perspective. everyone can be thankful

billions 8y ago
Banks run green. They only require lights in the building, the building, the branches, and the atms, the employee's cars, the oil deals financed, and the wars financed.
- foepys 8y ago
  Same can be said about the Bitcoin exchanges. Minus the wars maybe but including the drug cartels.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    What drug cartel runs on Bitcoin? I thought it was US Dollar.
- kacamak 8y ago
  >and the wars created
sygma 8y ago
The planet doesn’t care, it will go on. With climate change, humans are at risk, not the planet.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  Humans are at risk of resource shortages. Many species are facing extinction. Nothing bad will happen to the dirt, but if 'planet' means 'biosphere' then it's at the most risk.
  - crimsonalucard 8y ago
    Unlikely Life as we know it is at risk. The planet has been through many extinctions.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      The risk level is nowhere near "everything is wiped out", but the risk level for species in general is higher than the risk level for humans.
  - joesb 8y ago
    New species will arise. That's how evolution works.

mrb 8y ago

"their mostly-non-renewable power generation" Actually, most crypto mines in China are located in Sichuan or Yunnan, precisely because of an oversupply of hydroelectricity. More than a quarter of the world's hydropower is generated in China (350 GW) and most of that is from Sichuan & Yunnan. 350 GW is more hydropower generated than the next three biggest hydro producers combined (US + Brazil + Canada.) Because of the demand-supply imbalance in Sichuan an Yunnan, kWh prices are cheap, hence mining is profitable. ~90% of the electricity in these regions is generated from hydropower. The oversupply is a result of inadequate grid infrastructure preventing the transport of electricity to resell it to neighboring regions, and a slowdown of China's economic growth. Sources: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.renene.2018.01.090 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.renene.2018.01.090 — Hydropower curtailment in Yunnan Province, southwestern China: Constraint analysis and suggestions — "The increasing curtailment of hydropower generation not only caused large-scale waste of sustainable energy [...]" In 2016 alone, Yunnan was forced to waste 15% or 31.4 terawatt-hours of hydroelectricity. https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/chinese-crypto-miners-rush-to-sichuan-for-cheap-hydroelectricity/ https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/chinese-... ("In 2016, for instance, overcapacity from hydropower stations in Sichuan and Yunnan amounted to a whopping 45.6 terawatt hours") It's so bad that China is now restricting the constructions of dams in Sichuan an Yunnan to not exacerbate the overcapacity problem.

lucb1e 8y ago
Then why did they even build it there? You know what the demand is going to be in the near future and you know what capacity you're designing for. Was this built purely for mining? Because if so, the money used to build this could have been used elsewhere. People often bring this up when talking about bitcoin mining but it makes no sense to me. How can this be true (and the whole truth)? It sounds like the kind of argument that bitcoin supporters would spread happily. Which I used to be, by the way. I GPU mined back when it was all fun and games. I used to also doubt the claims that bitcoin uses the power of a small country. I assumed some journalist looked at the difficulty, derived the number of hashes that need be done, looked at an average computer in their office, and voila. But then I did the math, taking the hash rate and figuring in the most optimal case, using only the most efficient miners, and to my surprise it's true. A small country of power just being wasted. I'm all for proof of stake networks, but bitcoin just has to die, the sooner the better.

KorematsuFred 8y ago

It is actually other way around. No one mines cryptos where energy in less supply because energy prices tend to be high. The current mining rigs in China are almost exclusively located in regions where energy is cheap and in oversupply. China has many power-plants that must run at certain capacity floor and despite of that the demand is much lower. It makes so much sense to let that energy be used to mine cryptos which is like store of that value. This way energy is not wasted. Chinese move has less to do with energy or environment but more about undermining a threat to their monopoly on currency. Bitcoin mining has a potential to push innovation to invest more in alternative and greener energy sources.

phreeza 8y ago
It appears to me that inhibiting mining does not really have a lot to do with usage of Bitcoin as a currency. Even if they managed to completely wipe out mining in China, that would have zero impact on the utility of Bitcoin as a currency in China.
- KorematsuFred 8y ago
  Do not expect the chinese government agents to understand all that.

crimsonalucard 8y ago

mining bitcoin with renewables is still a waste. You are now wasting renewable energy instead of nonrenewable energy. Both which despite the wording are limited.

trickstra 8y ago
"Waste" means you have no use for it. Yet some people are willing to pay for the Bitcoin, they obviously see some use for it... the fact that you don't or can't even imagine what use that might be doesn't make it a "waste". Let's say you go to such place with cheap electricity, start your own business, use that cheap electricity and produce something. If you cannot generate the same profit with your product as the bitcoin miners, then that's a waste. You just wasted electricity on your business that could otherwise be used to mine bitcoins and turn them into more dollars - more value for somebody.
- crimsonalucard 8y ago
  Humans are not rational beings. They do not always purchase things they need. Fentanyl and Heroin are obvious examples. Obesity is a problem in the united states and represents the over purchasing of food. - Let's say you go to such place with cheap electricity, start your own business, use that cheap electricity and produce something. If you cannot generate the same profit with your product as the bitcoin miners, then that's a waste. You just wasted electricity on your business that could otherwise be used to mine bitcoins and turn them into more dollars - more value for somebody. Value cannot be produced out of thin air. Mining a bitcoin without doing "work" is the equivalent of having a printing press and printing money. No work is done. When you print money it is a form of theft not a form of work. Most countries recognize it and classify it as counterfeit. When you exchange a counterfeit dollar for a real product that required work, you are doing an act of thievery. When you mine a bitcoin then exchange it for real money, it is similar to theft. The only difference is the person you exchange the money with has knowledge about what bitcoin is, and the "work" (nothing) you did to get it. Sort of like how when a drug addict buys some heroin he's either in too deep or for users just starting out, he's ignorant. A currency that constantly uses up energy is more wasteful than a currency that does not. Simple logic.