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Labor has become more expensive than parts, for many aspects of home repair. We haven't adapted our habits to this. The last time I let my university landlord

Labor has become more expensive than parts, for many aspects of home repair. We haven't adapted our habits to this. The last time I let my university landlord paint my apartment, it took days to clear the furniture, and I was instructed to do no paint prep. There were peels coming down from the ceiling. The painters exploited this "paint is glue" theory by painting under the peels and pushing them flat. I channeled my desire to kill them on the spot by politely escorted them out in mid-job and never letting anyone paint for me again. The next time I painted this apartment, I stripped the ceiling bare of its many poorly applied layers, and applied $500 of artist-grade acrylic primer and titanium white paint to the ceiling and walls. 15 years later, the apartment looks just-painted. Artist-grade acrylic paint is one of the best glues available, much more reliably so than oil paint. In the years since, the best wall paints have come closer to artist-grade acrylic paints, and their glues are likely better tuned to typical conditions. Artist paint is more expensive and better. Carefully tuning a cheap glue is like botching an airplane hardware design and trying to fix it in software. Later in a home, filling holes in contractor botched cabinet work, I started with artist-grade acrylic modeling putty, added just enough dye from the commercial paint manufacturer to match the existing cabinet paint, tweaked the gloss to also match, and created a one-step wood fill that disappeared into the existing paint job when dry. Much less shrinkage than commercial wood fills, and no primer or repainting needed. Again, acrylic art supplies making the best glue.

drawkcab 8y ago
Did you apply any mud to smooth the surface before you painted the apartment?
- Syzygies 8y ago
  As needed, but once I got to bare concrete/whatever it was remarkably smooth. I chipped off the ceiling slowly over weeks, avoiding gouging.
  - HillaryBriss 8y ago
    what about lead? how did you handle the old lead paint layers?
C1sc0cat 8y ago
A few years ago I looked at buying a listed building in the UK (mentioned in pevsner as well). And you MUST use special old paint that fades very quickly to be authentic.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Never, ever buy a listed building unless you are rich and retired.
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago
    Lol - well there are a pair of really nice Arts and Crafts houses I have my eye on for when I win the lottery :-) I did not go through because the developers stuffed up and got sued by English heritage for months.
crazygringo 8y ago
> 15 years later, the apartment looks just-painted Curious what you mean? In my experience, new paint coats are needed because of marks left on walls -- accumulated smudges, scuffs, furniture bangs, nicks, filled anchor holes, etc. None of which higher-quality paint has anything to do with... I assume? Am I wrong? Assuming paint is applied correctly in the first place, what are the longevity benefits of using a higher-quality paint?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rhinoceraptor 8y ago
  A lot of scuffs and smudges can be cleaned off with a magic eraser and some elbow grease. It's certainly easier than re-painting.
  - samastur 8y ago
    Soft rubber eraser works too.
  - dilyevsky 8y ago
    Depends on paint sheen (try doing that with flat finish paint - just gonna smear it all over)
- GordonS 8y ago
  Some white paint goes an off yellow colour over time, particularly gloss paint.
  - pnathan 8y ago
    that is typical of oil paint, due to the way linseed polymerizes.
    - GordonS 8y ago
      I couldn't remember whether it was water-based gloss or oil-based gloss that was most affected, so just went for "gloss" - thanks for clarifying :)
qubex 8y ago
Ballpark estimate by somebody who operates in the paint industry and has done so for almost fifteen years (albeit what is for you likely a foreign country: Italy). Industry associations estimate that the cost of materiel amounts to between 20% and 30% of the total cost experienced by the homeowner, depending on various factors (interior/exterior, type of finish desired, & cetera). So roughly three quarters of your “painting bill” comes from labour, not material. Knowing this, the DIY chains actually hike the prices of what are admittedly lower-grade paints because they know that by cutting out labour costs theirs is still a winning proposition for cash-strapped homeowners desperate enough to “Damage It Yourself”. It’s pretty dismal. And broadly speaking, it's unsustainable.
- HeWhoLurksLate 8y ago
  My family worked together to install the cabinets in our kitchen, which we then paid to have a granite counter-top on. Yes, there are some unfortunate scratches, but we did a good job. I would argue that DIY is more equal to assume all risk.
- retzkek 8y ago
  > cash-strapped homeowners desperate enough to “Damage It Yourself” I find it a sad statement that one suggests the primary reason for DIY is out of desperation - surely I am not alone in doing many home and auto maintenance tasks myself out of primarily the enjoyment and satisfaction of learning and executing a new skill? Sure, /r/DIWhy is full of examples of ill-advised and unsafe DIY attempts, typically in electrical, plumbing, and deck-laying, but that doesn't mean that we should discourage people from learning the basics of low-risk home maintenance such as painting, tiling, flooring, etc. On the contrary I believe the reward one feels from accomplishing such tasks oneself and with the help of friends or family can have a powerful positive emotional effect on society.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    In addition to the educational and satisfaction benefits (which I also agree with), I look at it this way: my standard of living is better because I do everything myself. What others spend on hiring painters, movers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics, I save, and it allows me to live like someone who makes quite a bit more than I do. I’ve got a modest tech salary, and wouldn’t call myself desperate or cash strapped—just frugal and keen to optimize every penny.
leguminous 8y ago
You sometimes need to be careful, depending on climate and construction specifics, what sort of paints you apply to the walls in modern buildings. Using vapor-closed paints (or worse, vinyl wallpaper) will not allow the drywall to dry to the interior and can result in mold and mildew growth. I don't know the characteristics of acrylic artists' paint, but there might be reason to be careful. One thing I've also been wondering about is if repainting every other year, even with vapor-open paints, would have a similar effect. So many rental properties just end up with layers and layers of paint.
korethr 8y ago
Having done both art painting with acrylic and building painting with acrylic-based paints, I don't know that I completely agree that art acrylics are better for wall coating than wall paints. No small part of the higher price for art acrylics vs wall paint acrylics is the pigment density. A blue that looks back into you when you look at it can be entirely appropriate for artistic work. Or, if it's not supposed to be the blue that's looking into your soul, you can mix that cobalt blue with a mars yellow to get the exactly correct shade green needed, because you're never going to get the green you want using a phthalo green as your base. Most people neither want nor need the intensity of color, nor the color flexibility that comes with art paints when it comes to their wall colors. Additionally, art acrylics are typically very thick, to allow the artist a high degree of flexibility in application density, a flexibility that's just not needed for wall application. You correctly note that labor is the major cost for house repair. In light of that, it strikes me as silly to buy a bunch of extra-thick art paint and take the time to thinning it down the the appropriate consistency for wall application, instead of just buying a volume of paint that was already at the appropriate viscosity. An acrylic-latex intended for outdoor use is going to be formulated to account for the fact that exterior surfaces see wider temperature swings in the summer and winter, and will be more flexible in its final cured form, reducing the flaking and cracking caused by the temperature-driven expansion and contraction that comes with the seasons. The formulation is also likely to account for the greater UV exposure its going to have outside. If you try to coat the exterior of your house with art paints, you're going to be spending a lot more money, it it might not last as long than if you used a paint intended for the purpose. Now, if your goal in either scenario is art or aesthetics, than that's a completely separate discussion. If you want the wall of your house that faces the local park to be a mural highlighting fundamental truths of the human condition, more power to you. Though, in that case, you might do better to eschew pre-forumlated paints entirely, and instead buy the raw outdoor-use formulated resins and pigments yourself, and mix as appropriate. > The last time I let my university landlord paint my apartment, it took days to clear the furniture, and I was instructed to do no paint prep. There were peels coming down from the ceiling. The painters exploited this "paint is glue" theory by painting under the peels and pushing them flat. I channeled my desire to kill them on the spot by politely escorted them out in mid-job and never letting anyone paint for me again. Okay, that's just sloppy work. I'd have wanted to kill them too. When I was painting commercially, if I or my supervisors had caught anyone doing that, said slacker would be off the crew permanently.
eledumb 8y ago
When you are painting cinderblock it's a lot easier.

drawkcab 8y ago

Did you apply any mud to smooth the surface before you painted the apartment?

Syzygies 8y ago
As needed, but once I got to bare concrete/whatever it was remarkably smooth. I chipped off the ceiling slowly over weeks, avoiding gouging.
- HillaryBriss 8y ago
  what about lead? how did you handle the old lead paint layers?

C1sc0cat 8y ago

A few years ago I looked at buying a listed building in the UK (mentioned in pevsner as well). And you MUST use special old paint that fades very quickly to be authentic.

pjc50 8y ago
Never, ever buy a listed building unless you are rich and retired.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  Lol - well there are a pair of really nice Arts and Crafts houses I have my eye on for when I win the lottery :-) I did not go through because the developers stuffed up and got sued by English heritage for months.

crazygringo 8y ago

> 15 years later, the apartment looks just-painted Curious what you mean? In my experience, new paint coats are needed because of marks left on walls -- accumulated smudges, scuffs, furniture bangs, nicks, filled anchor holes, etc. None of which higher-quality paint has anything to do with... I assume? Am I wrong? Assuming paint is applied correctly in the first place, what are the longevity benefits of using a higher-quality paint?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rhinoceraptor 8y ago
A lot of scuffs and smudges can be cleaned off with a magic eraser and some elbow grease. It's certainly easier than re-painting.
- samastur 8y ago
  Soft rubber eraser works too.
- dilyevsky 8y ago
  Depends on paint sheen (try doing that with flat finish paint - just gonna smear it all over)
GordonS 8y ago
Some white paint goes an off yellow colour over time, particularly gloss paint.
- pnathan 8y ago
  that is typical of oil paint, due to the way linseed polymerizes.
  - GordonS 8y ago
    I couldn't remember whether it was water-based gloss or oil-based gloss that was most affected, so just went for "gloss" - thanks for clarifying :)

qubex 8y ago

Ballpark estimate by somebody who operates in the paint industry and has done so for almost fifteen years (albeit what is for you likely a foreign country: Italy). Industry associations estimate that the cost of materiel amounts to between 20% and 30% of the total cost experienced by the homeowner, depending on various factors (interior/exterior, type of finish desired, & cetera). So roughly three quarters of your “painting bill” comes from labour, not material. Knowing this, the DIY chains actually hike the prices of what are admittedly lower-grade paints because they know that by cutting out labour costs theirs is still a winning proposition for cash-strapped homeowners desperate enough to “Damage It Yourself”. It’s pretty dismal. And broadly speaking, it's unsustainable.

HeWhoLurksLate 8y ago
My family worked together to install the cabinets in our kitchen, which we then paid to have a granite counter-top on. Yes, there are some unfortunate scratches, but we did a good job. I would argue that DIY is more equal to assume all risk.
retzkek 8y ago
> cash-strapped homeowners desperate enough to “Damage It Yourself” I find it a sad statement that one suggests the primary reason for DIY is out of desperation - surely I am not alone in doing many home and auto maintenance tasks myself out of primarily the enjoyment and satisfaction of learning and executing a new skill? Sure, /r/DIWhy is full of examples of ill-advised and unsafe DIY attempts, typically in electrical, plumbing, and deck-laying, but that doesn't mean that we should discourage people from learning the basics of low-risk home maintenance such as painting, tiling, flooring, etc. On the contrary I believe the reward one feels from accomplishing such tasks oneself and with the help of friends or family can have a powerful positive emotional effect on society.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  In addition to the educational and satisfaction benefits (which I also agree with), I look at it this way: my standard of living is better because I do everything myself. What others spend on hiring painters, movers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics, I save, and it allows me to live like someone who makes quite a bit more than I do. I’ve got a modest tech salary, and wouldn’t call myself desperate or cash strapped—just frugal and keen to optimize every penny.

leguminous 8y ago

You sometimes need to be careful, depending on climate and construction specifics, what sort of paints you apply to the walls in modern buildings. Using vapor-closed paints (or worse, vinyl wallpaper) will not allow the drywall to dry to the interior and can result in mold and mildew growth. I don't know the characteristics of acrylic artists' paint, but there might be reason to be careful. One thing I've also been wondering about is if repainting every other year, even with vapor-open paints, would have a similar effect. So many rental properties just end up with layers and layers of paint.

korethr 8y ago

Having done both art painting with acrylic and building painting with acrylic-based paints, I don't know that I completely agree that art acrylics are better for wall coating than wall paints. No small part of the higher price for art acrylics vs wall paint acrylics is the pigment density. A blue that looks back into you when you look at it can be entirely appropriate for artistic work. Or, if it's not supposed to be the blue that's looking into your soul, you can mix that cobalt blue with a mars yellow to get the exactly correct shade green needed, because you're never going to get the green you want using a phthalo green as your base. Most people neither want nor need the intensity of color, nor the color flexibility that comes with art paints when it comes to their wall colors. Additionally, art acrylics are typically very thick, to allow the artist a high degree of flexibility in application density, a flexibility that's just not needed for wall application. You correctly note that labor is the major cost for house repair. In light of that, it strikes me as silly to buy a bunch of extra-thick art paint and take the time to thinning it down the the appropriate consistency for wall application, instead of just buying a volume of paint that was already at the appropriate viscosity. An acrylic-latex intended for outdoor use is going to be formulated to account for the fact that exterior surfaces see wider temperature swings in the summer and winter, and will be more flexible in its final cured form, reducing the flaking and cracking caused by the temperature-driven expansion and contraction that comes with the seasons. The formulation is also likely to account for the greater UV exposure its going to have outside. If you try to coat the exterior of your house with art paints, you're going to be spending a lot more money, it it might not last as long than if you used a paint intended for the purpose. Now, if your goal in either scenario is art or aesthetics, than that's a completely separate discussion. If you want the wall of your house that faces the local park to be a mural highlighting fundamental truths of the human condition, more power to you. Though, in that case, you might do better to eschew pre-forumlated paints entirely, and instead buy the raw outdoor-use formulated resins and pigments yourself, and mix as appropriate. > The last time I let my university landlord paint my apartment, it took days to clear the furniture, and I was instructed to do no paint prep. There were peels coming down from the ceiling. The painters exploited this "paint is glue" theory by painting under the peels and pushing them flat. I channeled my desire to kill them on the spot by politely escorted them out in mid-job and never letting anyone paint for me again. Okay, that's just sloppy work. I'd have wanted to kill them too. When I was painting commercially, if I or my supervisors had caught anyone doing that, said slacker would be off the crew permanently.

eledumb 8y ago

When you are painting cinderblock it's a lot easier.