11 ms·

I've been helping a friend update their rental listings online this week (airbnb, homeaway, etc), and after seeing this issue come up, I told him I would specif

I've been helping a friend update their rental listings online this week (airbnb, homeaway, etc), and after seeing this issue come up, I told him I would specify that there were no cameras in the house. His response "that make's it sound like I have camera's in the house", but I convinced him honesty was a better policy in this regard. But when we weren't updating the listing, we were installing all kinds of smart home crap. There might not be any camera's, but every room has a google hub / speaker, a thermostat sensor (which looks suspiciously like a camera, particularly after reading this article) & wifi switches. I don't see a need for any of this stuff. The barely find the 'problems' it solves inconvenient. And when balanced against the privacy implications, I have no interest in a smart home. But I'm realising now that's going to make many Airbnb's unsuitable. Adding the hidden camera element... it just becomes impossible. If you really care about this issue, are you going to book an airbnb, then unplug every smart device, check for camera's, disable them somehow, and then re-connect everything when you leave?

mateo1 8y ago
Most "smart" home automation utilities are pretty useless anyway. Their end goal can usually be achieved with "dumb" electromechanical devices. Anything "smarter" than a motion sensor and a relay is probably too smart.
- wyldfire 8y ago
  I like that I can find out that I left my garage door open even when I'm not home -- and even shut it remotely, if necessary. It's a very practical use case for a 'smart' device.
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    Yes, but are you sure you're the only person who is able to control the door remotely? That's a big issue with a fair number of "smart" devices: their security is not up to par.
  - mateo1 8y ago
    Not nearly as practical as taking a look at your garage door while leaving though. If you're paranoid you can install a timer with an override switch. Surely telemetry and high-level automation has advantages, but is it worth the hassle, the abandonware light switch which is useless now, the privacy and security concerns that come with network-connected equipment? That is a personal choice and I have to say I'm not a supporter.
    - secabeen 8y ago
      Right, but to be human is to be fallible. For example, I left my garage door open all night last night (I was preoccupied when I went in, and just forgot to push the button). I've had a smart garage door for a while, but I just now added a schedule to automatically close the door at 1am, if it's not closed. That has value. Likewise, my smart sprinkler system monitors the weather and waters the lawn based on the amount of rain we've had. Over the rainy season here, it automatically disabled sprinkling for over 3 months. Sure, I could setup something with a water sensor, or push the rain-skip button each week, but it was nice to not have to think about it.
- asark 8y ago
  Part of the problem is that "smart" crap becomes hard to avoid if you want non-shitty devices. We've run into this with refrigerator shopping—we want a counter-depth fridge with what amounts to maybe $50-100 worth of "luxury" improvements in terms of cost to the manufacturer (a little more metal where some have plastic, castors for the drawers so they move a little better, "soft close" would be nice but its absence isn't a deal-breaker, some slightly more thoughtful than usual layout & organization) but all the ones with that kind of thing also bundle auto-opening doors and fancy smart junk and cost double what a mid-range fridge does. We just want to pay slightly (say $200-400) more for a fridge that doesn't feel like a (cheap!) kid's toy, but without a bunch of fancy junk. Such a product does not exist. Then there's smoke detectors. Do some reading and it seems like they all suck, badly, except Nest Protect, which achieves best-of-a-bad-lot status. I just want smoke detectors that, you know, work, and don't annoy me so much in the kitchen that I end up unplugging that one permanently. Ideally they'd wirelessly trigger one another so I don't have to worry about wires for that. I don't really want or need them to connect to the Internet or to spy on me. Unfortunately sucks-the-least comes bundled with spies-on-you. See also: the entire TV market.
fluxem 8y ago
Do you also introduce yourself like: Hi! I'm Bob, not a murderer. Otherwise, how people will know that you haven't killed anyone?
- bryanrasmussen 8y ago
  If there was a widespread problem with murderers in your social circle, and people kept finding out people whom they had assumed were not murderers, then I might introduce myself as Bob, not a murderer. Just wait til they find out I'm not Bob.
- MisterTea 8y ago
  > Hi! I'm Bob, not a murderer. That's just proper craigslist dating etiquette.
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  That also makes it sound like your name's not really Bob.
- mikorym 8y ago
  Hi prison mates, I'm Bob and I am in prison for stealing a loaf of bread. Do you want to rent out my copy of the Twilight series? Maybe that's slightly more accurate?
- mherdeg 8y ago
  No, I don't introduce myself that way - that would be crazy. There is a popular theory that the handshake originated as a way to show your hand wasn't holding a weapon. I think the evidence for this history is shaky at best, but it's been repeated because it's somehow a compelling idea -- what were people thinking many hundreds of years ago when crime was so common that you genuinely wondered about whether you could trust a casual acquaintance not to hurt you? What did they do to protect themselves? It doesn't seem unreasonable to wonder about how to present yourself as "safe" in the deeply untrustworthy home-sharing privacy landscape where casual home surveillance is ultra-common (and where neither landlord nor tenant knows how much they can trust the other). I'm not sure there is a good answer and it's not crazy to try to look for one.
chewz 8y ago
Just turn off the router and use your own. That's crude but should deal with 98% of problems.
- kranner 8y ago
  That's the decoy router, not the hidden one with the hidden SSID.
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  Yes. But, the 2% remaining are hidden cameras saving everything to SD card.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    Or a router with an SD card when the network drops.
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      Or maybe there is an x-ray source in the cellar and a detector in the roof
- taxidump 8y ago
  Or further, disconnect the internet from the Demarcation point outside. Although I have personally found a cheap android phone located in an outside, locked, electrical receptacle box with a charger plugged in. It all fit nicely. This was running a hotspot with hidden SSID.
jhncls 8y ago
An indirect approach could be better to communicate the lack of cameras without making people too suspicious. Something like: "We highly value our guests' privacy".
- acqq 8y ago
  “We highly value our guests' privacy” is exactly what every data collecting actor on every website writes. It’s effectively meaningless.
  - yborg 8y ago
    It means precisely what it says ... that your privacy is worth good money to them.
    - munk-a 8y ago
      Maybe... or maybe it's saying "Your privacy is so valuable, imagine what we could get for that on the open market."
- nothrabannosir 8y ago
  That phrase has such a strong connection to data leaks and privacy invasion that I instinctively stay away from anyone who uses it.
rb808 8y ago
Agreed on IoT stuff. If you're just staying in a place a few days the last thing you want to do is figure out how to get all the smart home crap to work. Stick with regular light switches please!
OrgNet 8y ago
> There might not be any camera's, but every room has a google hub that is a bigger privacy invasion if you ask me... and it is probably even illegal in some states (https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-R...) ...
- Godel_unicode 8y ago
  A clearly visible device that doesn't record unless you tell it to is a bigger violation than a hidden device that records all the time? Come on. Edit: the Google device also has a visible physical mute button.
  - OrgNet 8y ago
    It listens at all times and can decide to send your data to Google at any time without a warning... doesn't it do voice recognition in the cloud anyways? edit: do you really trust that button? they have hidden microphones before: https://www.cnet.com/news/google-calls-nests-hidden-microphone-an-error/ https://www.cnet.com/news/google-calls-nests-hidden-micropho...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
achenatx 8y ago
as the owner of a vacation rental 1) being able to change door codes remotely and unlock the door remotely can save a lot of trips to the rental 2) being able to control the thermostat after people leave and have set the temp to 65 degrees is also really useful. 3) The only cameras I would use are outside the home so I can monitor it when it is vacant. I have the same policy in my own home
reverend_gonzo 8y ago
I'm going to second what achenatx said. - Having smart locks means I don't have to give out keys, and I can change lock codes remotely. - Having a smart thermostat means not only can I change it remotely (once they've checked or to prepare it before checking in), but I also get notified of when the HVAC isn't working. (For example, the ecobee will email you if it's been heating for a couple of hours and the temperature has dropped). This is absolutely necessary in climates with periods of extreme cold as that can cause burst pipes, which then damage everything. - Smart smoke detectors, CO2 detectors can notify you of problems that you won't otherwise find out about in a timely manner, given you're not at the location. - Sensors that detect flooding. We have a condo that has been flooded by upstairs tenants. Putting a moisture detector between the walls means we get notified of a small problem before it becomes a huge problem. I think having a smart home is even more important for a property that you don't live at then one where you do. Actively telling guests "We don't have hidden cameras" has got to be extremely off-putting. There is not a huge problem with hidden cameras. Just fine/arrest/ban the hosts who actually do it, given evidence that it is them doing it.
- shawn-butler 8y ago
  >> Just fine/arrest/ban the hosts who actually do it, given evidence that it is them doing it. The Federal voyeurism act of 2004 made it illegal in the US to record video of someone without their consent when that person had a reasonable expectation of privacy [0]. Fines and up to one year in prison. But I don't know of any actual convictions. I bet if this happens in some jurisdiction with a politically ambitious prosecutor and the host were recording children then it will blow up. [0]: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text
- ken 8y ago
  Something I discovered when working in technology is that anyone who said "just do ___" in a planning meeting was either brilliant, or drastically underestimated the scope of a task. Either way, the solution was the same. If you're the only person in the room who thinks a task is easy, you're assigned to that task. How exactly do you plan to find identify all the hosts who do this?
stronglikedan 8y ago
> are you going to... Everything but the re-connect bit. If you re-connect everything, the owner won't get the message.
- Godel_unicode 8y ago
  The message that you're kind of a jerk, and you think your opinion about their property is more valid than theirs even after you leave?
  - stronglikedan 8y ago
    The irony of you calling me a jerk is delightful. As they say, when debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Since the debate is over, so is this conversation, as it certainly cannot be productive (but then again, you never did intend for it to be).
EGreg 8y ago
Why is everything in the cloud? Why don’t we have some good software that will runt his stuff on our own servers locally? I’m talking even mesh networking for the neighborhood, no Internet. Is there any good software like that? For social networking, or parsing commands etc.
ekovarski 8y ago
The guest expectation is that hotels and rentals don't have any hidden cameras. Stating that there are no cameras, while it is truthful, it has the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. This is why you don't see low-fat/low-sugar ice cream proclaiming that it won't make you fat on the box.
Riseed 8y ago
Explicitly mentioning “no cameras” is currently very off-putting because the expectation is that there are no cameras in private accommodations. It comes off as well as saying “We won’t file a frivolous damage claim against you.” That wasn’t something I was really worrying about, but, well, now I am. There is one exception, and that is to clarify both where the cameras are and aren’t. Saying “We have a security camera over the garage door, but no cameras in the house” comes off much more sincerely.
- elliekelly 8y ago
  Agreed. This leads me to believe airbnb should add a question about this and force homeowners to answer it one way or another.
  - craftinator 8y ago
    That's a really neat solution to this issue! Added benefit is that if a camera is found, Airbnb has a simple criteria to weed out the bad eggs.
tenebrisalietum 8y ago
Outright specifying there are no cameras in the house may make you a target for bad actors looking for vulnerable properties. This is something I would mention to people after they accept the rental agreement, preferably face to face. If asked, I would say no cameras currently but planning to install by rent date, even if you end up not really doing it.
toss1 8y ago
Agree completely that having to scan for hidden bugs and cameras is a massive inconvenience. A relative just cancelled a month-long stay in an AirB&B after finding unnoticed cameras (and the rapidly increasing number of stories about this is pretty much putting me off the concept). >>"...and then re-connect everything when you leave" It seems to me that if I did use one, and found & disconnected some bugs, the last thing I'd do is reconnect them. I'd have no way to ensure that I reconnected everything properly, and they can fix their own damn setup. (TBH, I'd be more likely to take them and toss in the nearest trash bin -- what are they going to do, try and charge me for stealing their illegal bugging devices? I'm just taking out the trash.)

mateo1 8y ago

Most "smart" home automation utilities are pretty useless anyway. Their end goal can usually be achieved with "dumb" electromechanical devices. Anything "smarter" than a motion sensor and a relay is probably too smart.

wyldfire 8y ago
I like that I can find out that I left my garage door open even when I'm not home -- and even shut it remotely, if necessary. It's a very practical use case for a 'smart' device.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  Yes, but are you sure you're the only person who is able to control the door remotely? That's a big issue with a fair number of "smart" devices: their security is not up to par.
- mateo1 8y ago
  Not nearly as practical as taking a look at your garage door while leaving though. If you're paranoid you can install a timer with an override switch. Surely telemetry and high-level automation has advantages, but is it worth the hassle, the abandonware light switch which is useless now, the privacy and security concerns that come with network-connected equipment? That is a personal choice and I have to say I'm not a supporter.
  - secabeen 8y ago
    Right, but to be human is to be fallible. For example, I left my garage door open all night last night (I was preoccupied when I went in, and just forgot to push the button). I've had a smart garage door for a while, but I just now added a schedule to automatically close the door at 1am, if it's not closed. That has value. Likewise, my smart sprinkler system monitors the weather and waters the lawn based on the amount of rain we've had. Over the rainy season here, it automatically disabled sprinkling for over 3 months. Sure, I could setup something with a water sensor, or push the rain-skip button each week, but it was nice to not have to think about it.
asark 8y ago
Part of the problem is that "smart" crap becomes hard to avoid if you want non-shitty devices. We've run into this with refrigerator shopping—we want a counter-depth fridge with what amounts to maybe $50-100 worth of "luxury" improvements in terms of cost to the manufacturer (a little more metal where some have plastic, castors for the drawers so they move a little better, "soft close" would be nice but its absence isn't a deal-breaker, some slightly more thoughtful than usual layout & organization) but all the ones with that kind of thing also bundle auto-opening doors and fancy smart junk and cost double what a mid-range fridge does. We just want to pay slightly (say $200-400) more for a fridge that doesn't feel like a (cheap!) kid's toy, but without a bunch of fancy junk. Such a product does not exist. Then there's smoke detectors. Do some reading and it seems like they all suck, badly, except Nest Protect, which achieves best-of-a-bad-lot status. I just want smoke detectors that, you know, work, and don't annoy me so much in the kitchen that I end up unplugging that one permanently. Ideally they'd wirelessly trigger one another so I don't have to worry about wires for that. I don't really want or need them to connect to the Internet or to spy on me. Unfortunately sucks-the-least comes bundled with spies-on-you. See also: the entire TV market.

fluxem 8y ago

Do you also introduce yourself like: Hi! I'm Bob, not a murderer. Otherwise, how people will know that you haven't killed anyone?

bryanrasmussen 8y ago
If there was a widespread problem with murderers in your social circle, and people kept finding out people whom they had assumed were not murderers, then I might introduce myself as Bob, not a murderer. Just wait til they find out I'm not Bob.
MisterTea 8y ago
> Hi! I'm Bob, not a murderer. That's just proper craigslist dating etiquette.
DonHopkins 8y ago
That also makes it sound like your name's not really Bob.
mikorym 8y ago
Hi prison mates, I'm Bob and I am in prison for stealing a loaf of bread. Do you want to rent out my copy of the Twilight series? Maybe that's slightly more accurate?
mherdeg 8y ago
No, I don't introduce myself that way - that would be crazy. There is a popular theory that the handshake originated as a way to show your hand wasn't holding a weapon. I think the evidence for this history is shaky at best, but it's been repeated because it's somehow a compelling idea -- what were people thinking many hundreds of years ago when crime was so common that you genuinely wondered about whether you could trust a casual acquaintance not to hurt you? What did they do to protect themselves? It doesn't seem unreasonable to wonder about how to present yourself as "safe" in the deeply untrustworthy home-sharing privacy landscape where casual home surveillance is ultra-common (and where neither landlord nor tenant knows how much they can trust the other). I'm not sure there is a good answer and it's not crazy to try to look for one.

chewz 8y ago

Just turn off the router and use your own. That's crude but should deal with 98% of problems.

kranner 8y ago
That's the decoy router, not the hidden one with the hidden SSID.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
Yes. But, the 2% remaining are hidden cameras saving everything to SD card.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  Or a router with an SD card when the network drops.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    Or maybe there is an x-ray source in the cellar and a detector in the roof
taxidump 8y ago
Or further, disconnect the internet from the Demarcation point outside. Although I have personally found a cheap android phone located in an outside, locked, electrical receptacle box with a charger plugged in. It all fit nicely. This was running a hotspot with hidden SSID.

jhncls 8y ago

An indirect approach could be better to communicate the lack of cameras without making people too suspicious. Something like: "We highly value our guests' privacy".

acqq 8y ago
“We highly value our guests' privacy” is exactly what every data collecting actor on every website writes. It’s effectively meaningless.
- yborg 8y ago
  It means precisely what it says ... that your privacy is worth good money to them.
  - munk-a 8y ago
    Maybe... or maybe it's saying "Your privacy is so valuable, imagine what we could get for that on the open market."
nothrabannosir 8y ago
That phrase has such a strong connection to data leaks and privacy invasion that I instinctively stay away from anyone who uses it.

rb808 8y ago

Agreed on IoT stuff. If you're just staying in a place a few days the last thing you want to do is figure out how to get all the smart home crap to work. Stick with regular light switches please!

OrgNet 8y ago

> There might not be any camera's, but every room has a google hub that is a bigger privacy invasion if you ask me... and it is probably even illegal in some states (https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-R...) ...

Godel_unicode 8y ago
A clearly visible device that doesn't record unless you tell it to is a bigger violation than a hidden device that records all the time? Come on. Edit: the Google device also has a visible physical mute button.
- OrgNet 8y ago
  It listens at all times and can decide to send your data to Google at any time without a warning... doesn't it do voice recognition in the cloud anyways? edit: do you really trust that button? they have hidden microphones before: https://www.cnet.com/news/google-calls-nests-hidden-microphone-an-error/ https://www.cnet.com/news/google-calls-nests-hidden-micropho...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

achenatx 8y ago

as the owner of a vacation rental 1) being able to change door codes remotely and unlock the door remotely can save a lot of trips to the rental 2) being able to control the thermostat after people leave and have set the temp to 65 degrees is also really useful. 3) The only cameras I would use are outside the home so I can monitor it when it is vacant. I have the same policy in my own home

reverend_gonzo 8y ago

I'm going to second what achenatx said. - Having smart locks means I don't have to give out keys, and I can change lock codes remotely. - Having a smart thermostat means not only can I change it remotely (once they've checked or to prepare it before checking in), but I also get notified of when the HVAC isn't working. (For example, the ecobee will email you if it's been heating for a couple of hours and the temperature has dropped). This is absolutely necessary in climates with periods of extreme cold as that can cause burst pipes, which then damage everything. - Smart smoke detectors, CO2 detectors can notify you of problems that you won't otherwise find out about in a timely manner, given you're not at the location. - Sensors that detect flooding. We have a condo that has been flooded by upstairs tenants. Putting a moisture detector between the walls means we get notified of a small problem before it becomes a huge problem. I think having a smart home is even more important for a property that you don't live at then one where you do. Actively telling guests "We don't have hidden cameras" has got to be extremely off-putting. There is not a huge problem with hidden cameras. Just fine/arrest/ban the hosts who actually do it, given evidence that it is them doing it.

shawn-butler 8y ago
>> Just fine/arrest/ban the hosts who actually do it, given evidence that it is them doing it. The Federal voyeurism act of 2004 made it illegal in the US to record video of someone without their consent when that person had a reasonable expectation of privacy [0]. Fines and up to one year in prison. But I don't know of any actual convictions. I bet if this happens in some jurisdiction with a politically ambitious prosecutor and the host were recording children then it will blow up. [0]: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text
ken 8y ago
Something I discovered when working in technology is that anyone who said "just do ___" in a planning meeting was either brilliant, or drastically underestimated the scope of a task. Either way, the solution was the same. If you're the only person in the room who thinks a task is easy, you're assigned to that task. How exactly do you plan to find identify all the hosts who do this?

stronglikedan 8y ago

> are you going to... Everything but the re-connect bit. If you re-connect everything, the owner won't get the message.

Godel_unicode 8y ago
The message that you're kind of a jerk, and you think your opinion about their property is more valid than theirs even after you leave?
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  The irony of you calling me a jerk is delightful. As they say, when debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Since the debate is over, so is this conversation, as it certainly cannot be productive (but then again, you never did intend for it to be).

EGreg 8y ago

Why is everything in the cloud? Why don’t we have some good software that will runt his stuff on our own servers locally? I’m talking even mesh networking for the neighborhood, no Internet. Is there any good software like that? For social networking, or parsing commands etc.

ekovarski 8y ago

The guest expectation is that hotels and rentals don't have any hidden cameras. Stating that there are no cameras, while it is truthful, it has the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. This is why you don't see low-fat/low-sugar ice cream proclaiming that it won't make you fat on the box.

Riseed 8y ago

Explicitly mentioning “no cameras” is currently very off-putting because the expectation is that there are no cameras in private accommodations. It comes off as well as saying “We won’t file a frivolous damage claim against you.” That wasn’t something I was really worrying about, but, well, now I am. There is one exception, and that is to clarify both where the cameras are and aren’t. Saying “We have a security camera over the garage door, but no cameras in the house” comes off much more sincerely.

elliekelly 8y ago
Agreed. This leads me to believe airbnb should add a question about this and force homeowners to answer it one way or another.
- craftinator 8y ago
  That's a really neat solution to this issue! Added benefit is that if a camera is found, Airbnb has a simple criteria to weed out the bad eggs.

tenebrisalietum 8y ago

Outright specifying there are no cameras in the house may make you a target for bad actors looking for vulnerable properties. This is something I would mention to people after they accept the rental agreement, preferably face to face. If asked, I would say no cameras currently but planning to install by rent date, even if you end up not really doing it.

toss1 8y ago

Agree completely that having to scan for hidden bugs and cameras is a massive inconvenience. A relative just cancelled a month-long stay in an AirB&B after finding unnoticed cameras (and the rapidly increasing number of stories about this is pretty much putting me off the concept). >>"...and then re-connect everything when you leave" It seems to me that if I did use one, and found & disconnected some bugs, the last thing I'd do is reconnect them. I'd have no way to ensure that I reconnected everything properly, and they can fix their own damn setup. (TBH, I'd be more likely to take them and toss in the nearest trash bin -- what are they going to do, try and charge me for stealing their illegal bugging devices? I'm just taking out the trash.)