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I think you’re making the UK to sound a lot worse than it is. The crime rate is still relatively low and on par with most Western European countries. And I don’

I think you’re making the UK to sound a lot worse than it is. The crime rate is still relatively low and on par with most Western European countries. And I don’t see how education is poor the UK has some of the best universities in the world, and decent schools. In fact the number of people with degrees has been slowly rising. The UK is a great place to live and work, don’t let this comment tell you otherwise. Everyone on the internet seems to catrophise things

GordonS 8y ago
And yet the country voted for Brexit, mostly without even knowing what they were voting for. I agree with the OP that politics in the UK are toxic. There are only 2 parties that matter, and they are essentially the same, even though they would have you believe differently. The parties never work together, and spend all their time shamelessly sniping at one another and blocking bills based on political points scoring. It doesn't feel like either party wants what is best for the populace. Then you have the tabloid media, which constantly fans the flames of hatred and outrage, poisoning the minds of a large part of the populace, essentially able to make them believe almost anything that suits the narrative of the owner's political affiliation.
- lewis1028282 8y ago
  > And yet the country voted for Brexit, mostly without even knowing what they were voting for. Well obviously enough thought it was the right option. >I agree with the OP that politics in the UK are toxic. There are only 2 parties that matter, and they are essentially the same, even though they would have you believe differently. The parties never work together, and spend all their time shamelessly sniping at one another and blocking bills based on political points scoring. It doesn't feel like either party wants what is best for the populace. That how government works. You have the main party in power and the official opposition that tries to block bills it doesn't agree with. It has been like this for centuries. > Then you have the tabloid media, which constantly fans the flames of hatred and outrage, poisoning the minds of a large part of the populace, essentially able to make them believe almost anything that suits the narrative of the owner's political affiliation. I agree with you on this I don't think it is a problem unique to the UK. And I think it'll get better because the sales of newspapers is decreasing.
  - pas 8y ago
    > right option Well, indeed. If you ask the usual humans if they want to eat, sleep, work, have fun, and also go grab a drink, yes, they want all of that at the same time. People are rarely consistent in their wants, and it's no surprise that the voters eat up the imperial nostalgia. The UK will negotiate the best deals. Ah yea, sure you will. Naturally in the free time left after negotiating brexit itself. > unique to the UK no, alas this irrationality is endemic.
  - GordonS 8y ago
    > Well obviously enough thought it was the right option While I voted remain, I agree that we have to respect the outcome of the vote. But politicians on both sides told lies and half-truths, and many voters really didn't know what they were voting for - and of course some were simply ignorant, whipped up into a xenophobic frenzy by the tabloid press. The whole things has been a shambles, and demonstrates just how fucked up out political landscape is. > That how government works. You have the main party in power and the official opposition that tries to block bills it doesn't agree with. That's not how it's working though - my point is that Labour will block bills based on political points scoring, not because they actually disagree with the bill. While Labour is not in power you won't get anything out of them about what they would actually do in this or that situation - they refuse to have an opinion on anything (but will invariably spout "well, we've been very clear"), and seem to exist to heckle the Conservatives
    - AntiTechTechie 8y ago
      > ...and of course some were simply ignorant, whipped up into a xenophobic frenzy by the tabloid press. Are you saying that those who voted to leave because of immigration issues were ignorant of what they were voting for?
      - GordonS 8y ago
        Some, not all of them of course. But some believe any old shit that vile hate rags like the Daily Mail bombard them with - let's not pretend that xenophobia and ignorance don't exist among voters in the UK.
padthai 8y ago
> the UK has some of the best universities in the world Let's not confuse leading research groups with general education quality. UK undergrad and PhD courses are short and their funding model makes difficult for universities to fail students (this is similar to what happens with master degrees all over the world).
- lewis1028282 8y ago
  I'm a master's student in the UK so I'm not really sure what you mean by 'short courses'? The UK follows the Bologna process and bachelor degrees are 3 years, masters 1, PhDs are 3 years. I'm not, Oxford and Cambridge are always in the top 5 universities in the world don't see how you can argue they are not.
  - arethuza 8y ago
    Nitpick: Scottish undergraduate degrees are typically 4 years - the education system being completely different up here.
    - padthai 8y ago
      And in Germany, Spain, etc. Plenty of places.
  - padthai 8y ago
    > The UK follows the Bologna process and bachelor degrees are 3 years, masters 1, PhDs are 3 years. That is not true for every European country. In lots of them bachelors last 4 years, and some degrees just morphed their old plans in undergrad+masters as a way to keep them longer (5-6 years). As far as I know, placements years are unusual too. You also does not need a master to get a PhD in the UK. I have met plenty of 23-24 year olds with PhDs there. And again, the biggest problem is than most teachers cannot fail more than a small percentage of their students, even if they are absolutely terrible. > I'm not, Oxford and Cambridge are always in the top 5 universities in the world don't see how you can argue they are not. Even if Oxford/Cambridge/Imperial have excellent undergrad courses (as I am sure they have good PhD courses), that does not change the reality of the other 200. At some point, by the way, I was doing a PhD in a top 4 UK university. And I can tell you that the quality of undergrad courses I saw was questonable at best.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Yet in 8 years of mythical "austerity" the Tories have managed to gut every service to breaking point. Education is so broken that tertiary education has become an exercise in marketing and delivering least for the £9k a year. Schools are so starved of funding that 80% report being in crisis, as do Police, NHS, libraries, well everything really. Local government funding is more centrally funded that at any point in UK history, and the last 8 years have brought an insane skewing of an already heavy skew in favour of London and the South East. The North-South divide is 2:1 for pounds spend by government now. 8 years to destroy every achievement of inclusion and protection since the war. 8 years to put a third of UK children into poverty and a welfare system actively designed to get people to choose to give up. The bastards even knew that whilst rolling it out. I'm also looking to leave. I really, really don't want my retirement here any more as we abolish everything that was once worthwhile about the country and rush to public services that work as well as the US (ie not at all). The UK has become, surprisingly quickly, a terrible place to live and work, with widespread poverty and low wages, and a job market devoted to zero hours contracts for all.
- lewis1028282 8y ago
  > he UK has become, surprisingly quickly, a terrible place to live and work, with widespread poverty and low wages, and a job market devoted to zero hours contracts for all. I wouldn't say 2.8 % [1] of UK works on zero hour contracts mean the job market is 'devoted' to zero hour contracts. Just because it is in the news a lot doesn't mean it happens all the time. Honestly your post makes it seems like the UK is this corrupt, broke country when it couldn't be further from the truth. All I see is posts against the tories online but every election they've been the majority. [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/contractsthatdonotguaranteeaminimumnumberofhours/april2018 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...
  - keithpeter 8y ago
    Age and education selection when comparing HN with general population.
  - 8y ago
nextos 8y ago
IMHO the UK is not as bad as described by the OP, but it has certainly some issues that should be addressed ASAP. I am an expat that has been living in Oxford & Cambridge for many years, after living in many other countries. Upon arrival, I was shocked at how bad the public transport was in Cambridge. Different bus companies, incompatible tickets, unreliable schedules and extortionate prices. Trains are a bit better, but nothing to be proud of. Second shock comes from car commutes. South & East England is pretty flat. But the road network really needs an upgrade. For example, highway interchanges are often roundabouts (!) leading to absolutely massive jams. Thus, what would be a regular commute to work in mainland Europe by either public transport or car (say Buckingham to Oxford) is a bit of a nightmare and thus something nobody does. Third thing is housing. Bad quality, and land controlled by a few leads to really high prices. Plus, low density and the aforementioned transport issues make it really hard to buy in cheap places that are a bit far away. Lastly, education is expensive and there is a lot of elitism. In the US, I think it's not so difficult to get into e.g. Stanford if you come from a poor background as long as you work hard and get really nice SAT scores. However, in Oxbridge admissions are heavily biased towards high end schools. The only students from poor backgrounds I have personally met had exceptional achievements in their CV (e.g. IMO medals).
- lewis1028282 8y ago
  > Second shock comes from car commutes. South & East England is pretty flat. But the road network really needs an upgrade. For example, highway interchanges are often roundabouts (!) leading to absolutely massive jams. Roundabouts are actually way more efficient than junctions (and a lot safer) because of the low speed. I can imagine it must have been a big shock coming from the US tho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4PW66_g6XA&t=507s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4PW66_g6XA&t=507s > Third thing is housing. Bad quality, and land controlled by a few leads to really high prices. Plus, low density and the aforementioned transport issues make it really hard to buy in cheap places that are a bit far away. I mean the UK is a small place and supply/demand tells us the land is going to be expensive.
  - barrkel 8y ago
    Roundabouts are fine for cars on slow to medium speed roads - 20 to 40mph at a push. But they are a lot less efficient for longer trips. You don't get roundabouts on motorways or big dual carriageways. Slip roads and grade-separated junctions - often grade-separated roundabouts - are more efficient for time. Grade separated junctions also take up a lot of space and divide communities, so I'm not 100% in favour.
barrkel 8y ago
There are a lot better places to live. I don't like UK outside of London - I find it either sad and worn out with the same cloned high streets repeating every 50 miles, or smugly self-satisfied villages with wealthy people living in houses with names instead of numbers. London itself is pretty good. It is, however, quite squalid, and crime is getting worse. Best thing going for it is the wages are pretty decent, for Europe. Population density could be a lot higher though, and property cheaper. I'd like to take London, and plop it into the Alps - somewhere near Grenoble - or the Mediterranean - somewhere near Barcelona, though Barcelona already has a much higher quality of life, IMO. Take London out of England, and it would be fantastic. By education, I mean primary and secondary. UK exports education at third level and it's pretty good.
- keithpeter 8y ago
  Pop up to Liverpool one day and see what you think. Best when it isn't raining and the wind isn't too strong. Bold Street and Jamaica Street might be good starting points, then there is Renshaw Street and the Baltic area.
  - westiseast 8y ago
    > Best when it isn't raining and the wind isn't too strong. So.... never then?
    - keithpeter 8y ago
      I have years of sunburn to prove that the Mersey can be warmer than Spain...you just have to pick your times.

GordonS 8y ago

And yet the country voted for Brexit, mostly without even knowing what they were voting for. I agree with the OP that politics in the UK are toxic. There are only 2 parties that matter, and they are essentially the same, even though they would have you believe differently. The parties never work together, and spend all their time shamelessly sniping at one another and blocking bills based on political points scoring. It doesn't feel like either party wants what is best for the populace. Then you have the tabloid media, which constantly fans the flames of hatred and outrage, poisoning the minds of a large part of the populace, essentially able to make them believe almost anything that suits the narrative of the owner's political affiliation.

lewis1028282 8y ago
> And yet the country voted for Brexit, mostly without even knowing what they were voting for. Well obviously enough thought it was the right option. >I agree with the OP that politics in the UK are toxic. There are only 2 parties that matter, and they are essentially the same, even though they would have you believe differently. The parties never work together, and spend all their time shamelessly sniping at one another and blocking bills based on political points scoring. It doesn't feel like either party wants what is best for the populace. That how government works. You have the main party in power and the official opposition that tries to block bills it doesn't agree with. It has been like this for centuries. > Then you have the tabloid media, which constantly fans the flames of hatred and outrage, poisoning the minds of a large part of the populace, essentially able to make them believe almost anything that suits the narrative of the owner's political affiliation. I agree with you on this I don't think it is a problem unique to the UK. And I think it'll get better because the sales of newspapers is decreasing.
- pas 8y ago
  > right option Well, indeed. If you ask the usual humans if they want to eat, sleep, work, have fun, and also go grab a drink, yes, they want all of that at the same time. People are rarely consistent in their wants, and it's no surprise that the voters eat up the imperial nostalgia. The UK will negotiate the best deals. Ah yea, sure you will. Naturally in the free time left after negotiating brexit itself. > unique to the UK no, alas this irrationality is endemic.
- GordonS 8y ago
  > Well obviously enough thought it was the right option While I voted remain, I agree that we have to respect the outcome of the vote. But politicians on both sides told lies and half-truths, and many voters really didn't know what they were voting for - and of course some were simply ignorant, whipped up into a xenophobic frenzy by the tabloid press. The whole things has been a shambles, and demonstrates just how fucked up out political landscape is. > That how government works. You have the main party in power and the official opposition that tries to block bills it doesn't agree with. That's not how it's working though - my point is that Labour will block bills based on political points scoring, not because they actually disagree with the bill. While Labour is not in power you won't get anything out of them about what they would actually do in this or that situation - they refuse to have an opinion on anything (but will invariably spout "well, we've been very clear"), and seem to exist to heckle the Conservatives
  - AntiTechTechie 8y ago
    > ...and of course some were simply ignorant, whipped up into a xenophobic frenzy by the tabloid press. Are you saying that those who voted to leave because of immigration issues were ignorant of what they were voting for?
    - GordonS 8y ago
      Some, not all of them of course. But some believe any old shit that vile hate rags like the Daily Mail bombard them with - let's not pretend that xenophobia and ignorance don't exist among voters in the UK.

padthai 8y ago

> the UK has some of the best universities in the world Let's not confuse leading research groups with general education quality. UK undergrad and PhD courses are short and their funding model makes difficult for universities to fail students (this is similar to what happens with master degrees all over the world).

lewis1028282 8y ago
I'm a master's student in the UK so I'm not really sure what you mean by 'short courses'? The UK follows the Bologna process and bachelor degrees are 3 years, masters 1, PhDs are 3 years. I'm not, Oxford and Cambridge are always in the top 5 universities in the world don't see how you can argue they are not.
- arethuza 8y ago
  Nitpick: Scottish undergraduate degrees are typically 4 years - the education system being completely different up here.
  - padthai 8y ago
    And in Germany, Spain, etc. Plenty of places.
- padthai 8y ago
  > The UK follows the Bologna process and bachelor degrees are 3 years, masters 1, PhDs are 3 years. That is not true for every European country. In lots of them bachelors last 4 years, and some degrees just morphed their old plans in undergrad+masters as a way to keep them longer (5-6 years). As far as I know, placements years are unusual too. You also does not need a master to get a PhD in the UK. I have met plenty of 23-24 year olds with PhDs there. And again, the biggest problem is than most teachers cannot fail more than a small percentage of their students, even if they are absolutely terrible. > I'm not, Oxford and Cambridge are always in the top 5 universities in the world don't see how you can argue they are not. Even if Oxford/Cambridge/Imperial have excellent undergrad courses (as I am sure they have good PhD courses), that does not change the reality of the other 200. At some point, by the way, I was doing a PhD in a top 4 UK university. And I can tell you that the quality of undergrad courses I saw was questonable at best.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Yet in 8 years of mythical "austerity" the Tories have managed to gut every service to breaking point. Education is so broken that tertiary education has become an exercise in marketing and delivering least for the £9k a year. Schools are so starved of funding that 80% report being in crisis, as do Police, NHS, libraries, well everything really. Local government funding is more centrally funded that at any point in UK history, and the last 8 years have brought an insane skewing of an already heavy skew in favour of London and the South East. The North-South divide is 2:1 for pounds spend by government now. 8 years to destroy every achievement of inclusion and protection since the war. 8 years to put a third of UK children into poverty and a welfare system actively designed to get people to choose to give up. The bastards even knew that whilst rolling it out. I'm also looking to leave. I really, really don't want my retirement here any more as we abolish everything that was once worthwhile about the country and rush to public services that work as well as the US (ie not at all). The UK has become, surprisingly quickly, a terrible place to live and work, with widespread poverty and low wages, and a job market devoted to zero hours contracts for all.

lewis1028282 8y ago
> he UK has become, surprisingly quickly, a terrible place to live and work, with widespread poverty and low wages, and a job market devoted to zero hours contracts for all. I wouldn't say 2.8 % [1] of UK works on zero hour contracts mean the job market is 'devoted' to zero hour contracts. Just because it is in the news a lot doesn't mean it happens all the time. Honestly your post makes it seems like the UK is this corrupt, broke country when it couldn't be further from the truth. All I see is posts against the tories online but every election they've been the majority. [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/contractsthatdonotguaranteeaminimumnumberofhours/april2018 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...
- keithpeter 8y ago
  Age and education selection when comparing HN with general population.
- 8y ago

nextos 8y ago

IMHO the UK is not as bad as described by the OP, but it has certainly some issues that should be addressed ASAP. I am an expat that has been living in Oxford & Cambridge for many years, after living in many other countries. Upon arrival, I was shocked at how bad the public transport was in Cambridge. Different bus companies, incompatible tickets, unreliable schedules and extortionate prices. Trains are a bit better, but nothing to be proud of. Second shock comes from car commutes. South & East England is pretty flat. But the road network really needs an upgrade. For example, highway interchanges are often roundabouts (!) leading to absolutely massive jams. Thus, what would be a regular commute to work in mainland Europe by either public transport or car (say Buckingham to Oxford) is a bit of a nightmare and thus something nobody does. Third thing is housing. Bad quality, and land controlled by a few leads to really high prices. Plus, low density and the aforementioned transport issues make it really hard to buy in cheap places that are a bit far away. Lastly, education is expensive and there is a lot of elitism. In the US, I think it's not so difficult to get into e.g. Stanford if you come from a poor background as long as you work hard and get really nice SAT scores. However, in Oxbridge admissions are heavily biased towards high end schools. The only students from poor backgrounds I have personally met had exceptional achievements in their CV (e.g. IMO medals).

lewis1028282 8y ago
> Second shock comes from car commutes. South & East England is pretty flat. But the road network really needs an upgrade. For example, highway interchanges are often roundabouts (!) leading to absolutely massive jams. Roundabouts are actually way more efficient than junctions (and a lot safer) because of the low speed. I can imagine it must have been a big shock coming from the US tho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4PW66_g6XA&t=507s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4PW66_g6XA&t=507s > Third thing is housing. Bad quality, and land controlled by a few leads to really high prices. Plus, low density and the aforementioned transport issues make it really hard to buy in cheap places that are a bit far away. I mean the UK is a small place and supply/demand tells us the land is going to be expensive.
- barrkel 8y ago
  Roundabouts are fine for cars on slow to medium speed roads - 20 to 40mph at a push. But they are a lot less efficient for longer trips. You don't get roundabouts on motorways or big dual carriageways. Slip roads and grade-separated junctions - often grade-separated roundabouts - are more efficient for time. Grade separated junctions also take up a lot of space and divide communities, so I'm not 100% in favour.

barrkel 8y ago

There are a lot better places to live. I don't like UK outside of London - I find it either sad and worn out with the same cloned high streets repeating every 50 miles, or smugly self-satisfied villages with wealthy people living in houses with names instead of numbers. London itself is pretty good. It is, however, quite squalid, and crime is getting worse. Best thing going for it is the wages are pretty decent, for Europe. Population density could be a lot higher though, and property cheaper. I'd like to take London, and plop it into the Alps - somewhere near Grenoble - or the Mediterranean - somewhere near Barcelona, though Barcelona already has a much higher quality of life, IMO. Take London out of England, and it would be fantastic. By education, I mean primary and secondary. UK exports education at third level and it's pretty good.

keithpeter 8y ago
Pop up to Liverpool one day and see what you think. Best when it isn't raining and the wind isn't too strong. Bold Street and Jamaica Street might be good starting points, then there is Renshaw Street and the Baltic area.
- westiseast 8y ago
  > Best when it isn't raining and the wind isn't too strong. So.... never then?
  - keithpeter 8y ago
    I have years of sunburn to prove that the Mersey can be warmer than Spain...you just have to pick your times.