8 ms·

This smells a lot like using correlation to hypothesize causation. You could tell a different story about richer cities being able to afford better public trans

This smells a lot like using correlation to hypothesize causation. You could tell a different story about richer cities being able to afford better public transport. Subjectively, most UK cities feel less dense than many continental cities, with less apartment living and more urban streets with two story terraced houses. Could tell a similar story about that. UK laissez-faire local government combined with tribal politics making the ruling party incentivized to starve those local governments of funding - especially transfer funding when Tories are in power and Tory local government is usually restricted to rich areas not needing transfer funding - more material for storytelling. IMO the UK political culture is toxic, education is particularly poor. Everything is centered on London and yet all the elite live outside in the green belt, while crime driven by inequality is rising and police numbers are continually cut, and legal aid is also being cut, leading to mistrials and slow cases due to self representation, and free movement is attacked by all sides. I'm looking for the exit. This place is sick. The next domino will be something even more extreme, and it's chance whether it's left or right extremism.

0815test 8y ago
Crime driven by inequality? It's very plausibly driven by poverty, poor educational system and extreme social marginalisation (i.e. lack of good social capital), but these are not the same thing as "inequality".
- sprafa 8y ago
  I don’t see a huge difference. Social marginalisation is indeed huge here in Britain.
- tux1968 8y ago
  I couldn't find a paper with a quick google, but i did hear in a recent podcast that it is exactly income inequality (as measured by the Gini coefficient) rather than absolute poverty that is the biggest predictor in criminality. Here is a clip that mentions it; if I can find a paper to reference i'll edit this comment when I get home: https://podverse.fm/clips/BJE2hv7gZ https://podverse.fm/clips/BJE2hv7gZ Edit: The connection was made specifically with violent crimes. Here is an article about it that has links to some research papers: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/does-inequality-cause-crime/381748/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/does-in...
  - ldng 8y ago
    Yes, please, I'd be interested by a reference
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    Yet violent crime has been dramatically decreasing while inequality has been increasing over the last 25 years in the US?
    - tux1968 8y ago
      I don't have a good answer for that observation, I was just repeating what I had recently heard. It's not clear how localized the measured effect is, ie. how proximate the inequality must be. It's possible that since the top 1% is getting so much more disproportionately wealthy, it might in fact be making the rest of America more equal to each other. Maybe (wild guess on my part) there is less average difference between the poor in a neighborhood, and the middle class in the same area. The wealth inequality is hidden in statistics and is not so much in our faces.
- barrkel 8y ago
  I work in Farringdon and live in Enfield. I commute through Tottenham. I've been attacked in Tottenham twice in the past couple of years. This is a pattern through a lot of London. Central London has a lot of well-paid workers, but even then almost nobody can afford to live there, unless they're happy with tiny flats or sharing. So they commute to nicer homes outside the city center. And the slums - and Tottenham is essentially a slum - see these well-off people travel through their area, and try to take what they can, because they can't see a route out.
  - amica17 8y ago
    No, I think they saw a weedy bloke on a moped and took their chance. And Tottenham a slum? You live on a soil cap!...With a girlfriend who was having sex with someone else for the best part of a year (another woman for those interested).
- esotericn 8y ago
  The issue is that in a place like London inequality rapidly leads to poverty because the income/wealth differentials are so high. On the ground, at the moment, housing is monopolised by those with decent careers or established wealth. From scratch? Someone a few years into a career in a well paid field may be able to afford a flat or house quite far out. A bog standard middle class worker may be able to afford to rent a small flat. Someone working in the supermarket full time will be sharing a flat or house; someone worse than that (e.g. children of the above, part-time or unemployed) will likely be more than one to a room unless they managed to acquire social housing when it was still available. Overcrowded housing leads to high stress levels, arguments, kids spending their time on the street, all sorts of nonsense.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
lewis1028282 8y ago
I think you’re making the UK to sound a lot worse than it is. The crime rate is still relatively low and on par with most Western European countries. And I don’t see how education is poor the UK has some of the best universities in the world, and decent schools. In fact the number of people with degrees has been slowly rising. The UK is a great place to live and work, don’t let this comment tell you otherwise. Everyone on the internet seems to catrophise things
- GordonS 8y ago
  And yet the country voted for Brexit, mostly without even knowing what they were voting for. I agree with the OP that politics in the UK are toxic. There are only 2 parties that matter, and they are essentially the same, even though they would have you believe differently. The parties never work together, and spend all their time shamelessly sniping at one another and blocking bills based on political points scoring. It doesn't feel like either party wants what is best for the populace. Then you have the tabloid media, which constantly fans the flames of hatred and outrage, poisoning the minds of a large part of the populace, essentially able to make them believe almost anything that suits the narrative of the owner's political affiliation.
  - lewis1028282 8y ago
    > And yet the country voted for Brexit, mostly without even knowing what they were voting for. Well obviously enough thought it was the right option. >I agree with the OP that politics in the UK are toxic. There are only 2 parties that matter, and they are essentially the same, even though they would have you believe differently. The parties never work together, and spend all their time shamelessly sniping at one another and blocking bills based on political points scoring. It doesn't feel like either party wants what is best for the populace. That how government works. You have the main party in power and the official opposition that tries to block bills it doesn't agree with. It has been like this for centuries. > Then you have the tabloid media, which constantly fans the flames of hatred and outrage, poisoning the minds of a large part of the populace, essentially able to make them believe almost anything that suits the narrative of the owner's political affiliation. I agree with you on this I don't think it is a problem unique to the UK. And I think it'll get better because the sales of newspapers is decreasing.
lifeisstillgood 8y ago
I agree with most everything you say, but it's worth noting that the problems you mention leading to "poor productivity" are pretty much "all of politics". I think this is what you are getting at - its not one thing, but it's how we arrange everything- from funding justice systems to effective road transport and ensuring all citizens feel heard and engaged. Brexit has at least pushed "everything" on to the agenda - but sadly it's again too simple solutions that are the problem. I understand your desire to go - I just don't think the grass will be any greener elsewhere. Perhaps we just need a reboot
uxcolumbo 8y ago
Where would you move to?
esotericn 8y ago
I agree. A better title for the article might be something like "wealthy individuals in the UK matter; others merely exist as distractions". For my entire adult life this has been the case, Labour or Conservative. I'm not sure how far back you'd have to go for it to be different (if ever). The country is fundamentally set up around the idea of an elite having a good life whilst a large number of underlings scramble for the scraps. The provinces are an inconvenient frustration.
stevekemp 8y ago
> Subjectively, most UK cities feel less dense than many continental cities, with less apartment living and more urban streets with two story terraced houses I suspect this depends upon the part(s) of the UK that you visit. If you were in Glasgow, or Edinburgh, up in Scotland you'd find that the majority of people live in tenements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenement There are huge swathes of the country where people live in terraced homes, and still more where people have detached/semi-detached. I suspect if you wandered around in London you'd find both of those, as well as the ubiquitous tower-blocks.

0815test 8y ago

Crime driven by inequality? It's very plausibly driven by poverty, poor educational system and extreme social marginalisation (i.e. lack of good social capital), but these are not the same thing as "inequality".

sprafa 8y ago
I don’t see a huge difference. Social marginalisation is indeed huge here in Britain.
tux1968 8y ago
I couldn't find a paper with a quick google, but i did hear in a recent podcast that it is exactly income inequality (as measured by the Gini coefficient) rather than absolute poverty that is the biggest predictor in criminality. Here is a clip that mentions it; if I can find a paper to reference i'll edit this comment when I get home: https://podverse.fm/clips/BJE2hv7gZ https://podverse.fm/clips/BJE2hv7gZ Edit: The connection was made specifically with violent crimes. Here is an article about it that has links to some research papers: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/does-inequality-cause-crime/381748/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/does-in...
- ldng 8y ago
  Yes, please, I'd be interested by a reference
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  Yet violent crime has been dramatically decreasing while inequality has been increasing over the last 25 years in the US?
  - tux1968 8y ago
    I don't have a good answer for that observation, I was just repeating what I had recently heard. It's not clear how localized the measured effect is, ie. how proximate the inequality must be. It's possible that since the top 1% is getting so much more disproportionately wealthy, it might in fact be making the rest of America more equal to each other. Maybe (wild guess on my part) there is less average difference between the poor in a neighborhood, and the middle class in the same area. The wealth inequality is hidden in statistics and is not so much in our faces.
barrkel 8y ago
I work in Farringdon and live in Enfield. I commute through Tottenham. I've been attacked in Tottenham twice in the past couple of years. This is a pattern through a lot of London. Central London has a lot of well-paid workers, but even then almost nobody can afford to live there, unless they're happy with tiny flats or sharing. So they commute to nicer homes outside the city center. And the slums - and Tottenham is essentially a slum - see these well-off people travel through their area, and try to take what they can, because they can't see a route out.
- amica17 8y ago
  No, I think they saw a weedy bloke on a moped and took their chance. And Tottenham a slum? You live on a soil cap!...With a girlfriend who was having sex with someone else for the best part of a year (another woman for those interested).
esotericn 8y ago
The issue is that in a place like London inequality rapidly leads to poverty because the income/wealth differentials are so high. On the ground, at the moment, housing is monopolised by those with decent careers or established wealth. From scratch? Someone a few years into a career in a well paid field may be able to afford a flat or house quite far out. A bog standard middle class worker may be able to afford to rent a small flat. Someone working in the supermarket full time will be sharing a flat or house; someone worse than that (e.g. children of the above, part-time or unemployed) will likely be more than one to a room unless they managed to acquire social housing when it was still available. Overcrowded housing leads to high stress levels, arguments, kids spending their time on the street, all sorts of nonsense.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

lewis1028282 8y ago

I think you’re making the UK to sound a lot worse than it is. The crime rate is still relatively low and on par with most Western European countries. And I don’t see how education is poor the UK has some of the best universities in the world, and decent schools. In fact the number of people with degrees has been slowly rising. The UK is a great place to live and work, don’t let this comment tell you otherwise. Everyone on the internet seems to catrophise things

GordonS 8y ago
And yet the country voted for Brexit, mostly without even knowing what they were voting for. I agree with the OP that politics in the UK are toxic. There are only 2 parties that matter, and they are essentially the same, even though they would have you believe differently. The parties never work together, and spend all their time shamelessly sniping at one another and blocking bills based on political points scoring. It doesn't feel like either party wants what is best for the populace. Then you have the tabloid media, which constantly fans the flames of hatred and outrage, poisoning the minds of a large part of the populace, essentially able to make them believe almost anything that suits the narrative of the owner's political affiliation.
- lewis1028282 8y ago
  > And yet the country voted for Brexit, mostly without even knowing what they were voting for. Well obviously enough thought it was the right option. >I agree with the OP that politics in the UK are toxic. There are only 2 parties that matter, and they are essentially the same, even though they would have you believe differently. The parties never work together, and spend all their time shamelessly sniping at one another and blocking bills based on political points scoring. It doesn't feel like either party wants what is best for the populace. That how government works. You have the main party in power and the official opposition that tries to block bills it doesn't agree with. It has been like this for centuries. > Then you have the tabloid media, which constantly fans the flames of hatred and outrage, poisoning the minds of a large part of the populace, essentially able to make them believe almost anything that suits the narrative of the owner's political affiliation. I agree with you on this I don't think it is a problem unique to the UK. And I think it'll get better because the sales of newspapers is decreasing.

lifeisstillgood 8y ago

I agree with most everything you say, but it's worth noting that the problems you mention leading to "poor productivity" are pretty much "all of politics". I think this is what you are getting at - its not one thing, but it's how we arrange everything- from funding justice systems to effective road transport and ensuring all citizens feel heard and engaged. Brexit has at least pushed "everything" on to the agenda - but sadly it's again too simple solutions that are the problem. I understand your desire to go - I just don't think the grass will be any greener elsewhere. Perhaps we just need a reboot

uxcolumbo 8y ago

Where would you move to?

esotericn 8y ago

I agree. A better title for the article might be something like "wealthy individuals in the UK matter; others merely exist as distractions". For my entire adult life this has been the case, Labour or Conservative. I'm not sure how far back you'd have to go for it to be different (if ever). The country is fundamentally set up around the idea of an elite having a good life whilst a large number of underlings scramble for the scraps. The provinces are an inconvenient frustration.

stevekemp 8y ago

> Subjectively, most UK cities feel less dense than many continental cities, with less apartment living and more urban streets with two story terraced houses I suspect this depends upon the part(s) of the UK that you visit. If you were in Glasgow, or Edinburgh, up in Scotland you'd find that the majority of people live in tenements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenement There are huge swathes of the country where people live in terraced homes, and still more where people have detached/semi-detached. I suspect if you wandered around in London you'd find both of those, as well as the ubiquitous tower-blocks.