3 ms·

> Yes, that is the idea. But you can "white label" legislation too. What's stopping "you" (in the broader sense) from simply competing with ALEC? I lack the re

by magpi3 8y ago

> Yes, that is the idea. But you can "white label" legislation too. What's stopping "you" (in the broader sense) from simply competing with ALEC? I lack the resources to compete with large corporations. Are you arguing that we must all join large well funded organizations in order to have a voice in our laws?

tptacek 8y ago
Lobbying in general is problematic (though I think it's less clear-cut than I think people assume it is). But I'm clearly meant to be especially aghast at model legislation, which, to my eyes, seems strictly superior to the mode of lobbying where the lobbyists pay to have legislators write their bills for them.
- 9000 8y ago
  To me, it feels like the complete lack of a deliberative process implies that the legislators are not actually providing meaningful oversight in the slightest. Sure, oftentimes special interest groups will understand an issue in much more detail than a legislator (who almost by definition must be a jack-of-all-trades). But, it should also be clear that lobbying groups will very often use this knowledge for their personal gain, at the expense of other stakeholders. In my opinion, a good legislator would critically evaluate legislation, make changes, consult with other stakeholders, etc. Changes to the legislation imply an interest in the effects of the legislation (good or bad). But to instead allow legislation to be signed with your name with no, or few, changes to the text, shows that the legislator is willing to give the lobbyist everything they want, with no deliberation or push back. That feels particularly suspect to me.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  Wait. That’s an argument not in evidence either. Why is lobbying bad? The same arguments apply for model legislation. Legislators can’t be experts in everything they legislate so it behooves the people with vested interests & expertise to lobby their positions.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Yeah, like I said, I think the lobbying debate is more complicated than it seems at first blush, but I'll stipulate here that there are patterns of toxic lobbying that are worth worrying about. I just don't think model legislation is an indicator of those patterns.

by magpi3 8y ago

tptacek 8y ago

Lobbying in general is problematic (though I think it's less clear-cut than I think people assume it is). But I'm clearly meant to be especially aghast at model legislation, which, to my eyes, seems strictly superior to the mode of lobbying where the lobbyists pay to have legislators write their bills for them.

9000 8y ago
To me, it feels like the complete lack of a deliberative process implies that the legislators are not actually providing meaningful oversight in the slightest. Sure, oftentimes special interest groups will understand an issue in much more detail than a legislator (who almost by definition must be a jack-of-all-trades). But, it should also be clear that lobbying groups will very often use this knowledge for their personal gain, at the expense of other stakeholders. In my opinion, a good legislator would critically evaluate legislation, make changes, consult with other stakeholders, etc. Changes to the legislation imply an interest in the effects of the legislation (good or bad). But to instead allow legislation to be signed with your name with no, or few, changes to the text, shows that the legislator is willing to give the lobbyist everything they want, with no deliberation or push back. That feels particularly suspect to me.
kasey_junk 8y ago
Wait. That’s an argument not in evidence either. Why is lobbying bad? The same arguments apply for model legislation. Legislators can’t be experts in everything they legislate so it behooves the people with vested interests & expertise to lobby their positions.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Yeah, like I said, I think the lobbying debate is more complicated than it seems at first blush, but I'll stipulate here that there are patterns of toxic lobbying that are worth worrying about. I just don't think model legislation is an indicator of those patterns.