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Data point: I'm a current Tesla owner who during Q1 was in the market for replacing my remaining gas-powered car with an EV. Looking at the options available, t

Data point: I'm a current Tesla owner who during Q1 was in the market for replacing my remaining gas-powered car with an EV. Looking at the options available, the direction I'm seeing with respect to charging infrastructure, and the character of the company (yes, there's a touchy-feely part to me), I went with a Jaguar I-PACE instead of another Tesla. I feel that directly contributed to at least one lost potential sale for Tesla. If they wanted to sell me another EV, they'd need to do several things differently. First, give me buttons for the common stuff I do. Stuff I do commonly is A/C, audio on/off, audio volume, suspension height, and driving mode (sport or comfort -- I share the car with a spouse who hates vroom vroom). Second, adopt CCS. I don't want to take a hard dependency on a proprietary charging infrastructure that entirely depends on a single company to keep it on life support. Third, stop lying to me about fully self-driving capabilities. While we're on the subject, sell me the car as it is now, rather than as you speculate you can make the car be in the future through a software update. Fourth, nail the fit-and-finish and the quality of the interior. For me, Jaguar got almost everything right in what they were shipping in Q1.

solean 8y ago
Audio controls are on the steering wheel (in the Model 3 at least)
- dustindiamond 8y ago
  It is a bit overkill, though, no? It seems every option is enumerated as its own physical switch, knob, or lever.
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    I haven't driven a car since I was a teenager, but isn't this desirable for an interface that needs to be operated by sense of touch alone? (So you can keep your eyes on the road.)
    - dustindiamond 8y ago
      If there were only one or two, but I think the Audi has at least 5 or 6 different and seperate ‘interfaces’ on and besides the steering wheel. To me, it seems like an overly complex UX.
azhenley 8y ago
I tried the Jaguar I-PACE (a friend just purchased one), but the reason it is a no-go for me is the lack of fast charging. I would be effectively stuck in a one-hour radius from my home. My Model 3 can conveniently do cross-country trips. I really wish Jaguar and Porsche adopted the Tesla charging system (I think Tesla tried to get them to).
- ntsplnkv2 8y ago
  > My Model 3 can conveniently do cross-country trips. Not compared to gasoline, though.
  - alunchbox 8y ago
    Right, which we need to stop using? like yesterday.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - azhenley 8y ago
    Maybe. It forces me to take 30 minute breaks every 3-3.5 hours, which I have found far more enjoyable than what I did in my gasoline car (drive for 10 hours with only one five minute break). I quite like stopping at Tesla charging stations. They're generally in shopping areas with food and WiFi, and you can talk to other Tesla owners. It is like a new philosophy of traveling for me :)
    - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
      You can do that with a gasoline vehicle if you'd like. Or not, if you'd rather spend your time at your actual destination. Hey I'm all for Tesla improving the experience, it needs to be done, because the reality is the infrastructure is as important as the vehicle.
    - what_ever 8y ago
      Also, 30 minutes break is not needed if you are not driving alone.
twblalock 8y ago
Jaguar, Audi, and BMW are all working on electric cars to compete directly with Tesla. These are large car companies who know how to build millions of cars per year. They have large dealer networks already in place to sell and service their cars. Competition is going to get a lot tougher for Tesla over the next few years.
- ajross 8y ago
  Tesla builds more cars per quarter than Jaguar already. But yes, competition is (finally!) coming and that's a great thing.
  - twblalock 8y ago
    Jaguar is part of Tata. If Tata gets good at manufacturing electric cars in large quantities it would be a big deal.
    - ajross 8y ago
      The point was more that Tesla has already scaled beyond the level where "these companies know how to build cars" is reasonable spin. Tesla's building plenty of cars, making money doing so, scaling rapidly, and can only be expected to be doing better still by the time those competitors arrive in the market. That's not to say that they won't be highly competetive cars, they might (I for one certainly hope they are). But you don't get to handwave away Tesla's existing success on the basis of production numbers. Honestly... your argument is a year stale. The window on "Tesla can't scale" closed. They did.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - dreaminvm 8y ago
        I am not sure that's a fair statement. The other manufacturers (most, but especially in the luxury segments) build higher quality cars with much lower rates of error. Tesla enthusiasts (much like early adopters of things) are forgiving and overlook a lot of imperfections (fit and finish on teslas vary greatly -see Youtube reviews). This has been the primary reason holding me back for purchasing one. Tesla's existing accomplishments and ability to meet tough goals is admirable, but their first to market advantage is starting to fade away as more companies bring to market competitive cars without the quality issues (however few they might be pumping out for now).
nwah1 8y ago
In complete agreement about the need for EVs in general to converge around one open royalty-free charging standard. More on the side of Tesla when it comes to interior minimalism and less buttons. Ideally, voice recognition should control almost everything, and that would be superior for both comfort and safety.
- AlexandrB 8y ago
  > Ideally, voice recognition should control almost everything, and that would be superior for both comfort and safety. Maybe for safety, definitely not for comfort. At least not for me. I hate voice interfaces - the first time I have to repeat myself to turn the volume up a little bit I will be wishing for a knob to turn instead.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Ideally, voice recognition should control almost everything, and that would be superior for both comfort and safety. Why would it? Voice interaction is both slow and distracting compared to operating physical controls with fairly rapidly acquired muscle memory; I would expect voice interaction as the sole mode of control for any feature to reduce safety and utility (which, for many car features outside of basic driving controls, is comfort), and only be an improvement if otherwise there was no practical way to provide the feature. EDIT: It may be debatable whether this falls in “no practical way”, but I definitely think a need for complex input (such as occurs in navigation) is, if not strictly included in that exception, its own exception.
- twblalock 8y ago
  The time for standards is when technology is mature. If you standardize too soon you restrict innovation.
legitster 8y ago
Mazda developed their physical controls by blindfolding testers and making sure they could use everything on touch alone. In comparison, Tesla's approach of putting everything in a single touchscreen is a cost cutting measure being sold as trendy BS. And dangerous to boot.
- djanogo 8y ago
  "putting everything in a single touchscreen is a cost cutting measure being sold as trendy BS" this, I am amazed at number of people (mainly investors) who think this is a _feature_ and something other OEM's envy. Even the damn McKinsey report shows that OEM's have to do this cut about $1800 in costs which will help bring EV's to mainstream in the next decade.
- adamvalve 8y ago
  Who moved my cheese? It really isn't a huge deal. There is a divide that I notice, older people cling to buttons and younger people are fine getting rid of them. Is it dangerous? Hardly, I just wait till I stop if I need to adjust something that isn't on my steering wheel which is actually pretty rare.
  - tj-teej 8y ago
    "I just wait till I stop if I need to adjust something that isn't on my steering wheel which is actually pretty rare." Tesla knows some people won't, and they still built the car this way. That is objectively dangerous.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    " I just wait till I stop if I need to adjust something" A lot of people don't stop for sending texts so I doubt they will stop to adjust the temperature.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Is it dangerous? Hardly, I just wait till I stop if I need to adjust something that isn't on my steering wheel You say “Hardly”, and then discuss a behavior designed to mitigate the fact that exactly the thing you are denying is true.
iknowstuff 8y ago
Audio can be controlled via the wheels on the steering wheel. Suspension height is remembered and adjusted automatically in accordance with your car's location. There's no vroom vroom to worry about in an EV yet the torque is always instant. A/C is automatic -you probably want it around 72F/21C, just let the car automatically figure out the best way to get to that level. Model 3 supports CCS - in Europe natively, in the US via an adapter. While I agree about the self-driving goal shifting they're doing, it's still the best driver assist out there and you can simply opt out of buying it. So, I don't get it.
ody4242 8y ago
In my opinion, the Supercharger port (and the junction box) is way more advanced, compact, and cheaper than a CCS port. The Tesla onboard charger is clever enough to sense that it's connected to a DC charger, so they can use the same pins for AC and DC charging. Otoh, the CCS is a bulky connector + the germans were clever enough to add the PLC protocol as well, to make it even more complex and expensive. Don't get me wrong, I love standards, and I love, that the EU Model 3 can be charged essentially anywhere, but in my opinion, the Supercharger Type2 connector is better in every aspect, expect for it being proprietary.
- credit_guy 8y ago
  I remember Tesla saying they are letting anyone use their patents. Was that just some PR stunt?
  - spiralx 8y ago
    Pretty much, as it would require the other party to make their own patents available to Tesla, or at least not use them against them - and Tesla just doesn't have anything like the patent portfolio that other manufacturers have, so they would be getting pretty much all the advantage.
    - natch 8y ago
      Who is getting then advantage is arguable depending on the specifics. Tesla is trying to give sustainability an advantage. It will not benefit from the gasoline tech patents of a traditional ICE manufacturer. This kind of patent sharing is pretty common and is done to advance the state of the art, not to grab PR.
- carlivar 8y ago
  So, Betamax versus VHS?
- natch 8y ago
  It’s not proprietary in the sense that the offer has been made for any car company to use the same connector technology (and even the supercharger network) royalty free. No car companies have taken Tesla up on this offer. The ones that expressed interest wanted Tesla to make needless changes... but part of the deal with Tesla offering the tech is that it has to be done in a way that does not burn extra engineering time for the Tesla team... so the requested changes would not fly.
matthewdgreen 8y ago
Another Tesla owner here. For me everything you say sounds convincing until I look at the Supercharging network. From my perspective every single issue you mention is a valid point; it's just that Tesla's nationwide (in North America) supercharging network is worth 5,000 points. When other manufacturers solve this problem (and Tesla hasn't met their quality standards) those manufacturers will be an option.
- xkjkls 8y ago
  It doesn't seem hard for other manufacturers to come to an industry standard for car charging, and then have that built out. There's only 119 supercharging stations in the US. For the rest of the automotive industry to match that, especially if they all decide to collaborate, would take less than a year to catch up.
  - matthewdgreen 8y ago
    Even if everyone started planning tomorrow, you'd be optimistically looking at a couple of years before this hypothetical new charging network began to be useful. That makes your car useless for a large fraction of its lifespan. Whereas Tesla's charging network exists today. (And I would add that I've heard nothing serious about a plan like this being in the works, so it may in fact be several years away if it ever happens.)
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Even if everyone started planning tomorrow, you'd be optimistically looking at a couple of years before this hypothetical new charging network began to be useful. What if they started planning years ago, and also started deployment years ago? Because both CCS and CHAdeMO chargers are deployed (often as multi-standard chargers), with far greater numbers of stations than Tesla has, already.
      - matthewdgreen 8y ago
        I don't see this as being true. When I check Electrify America in my area (DC/Baltimore) it's a desert. Plugshare shows many stations, but when I view details they're primarily 1-2 chargers. These stations are useless for long-distance trips, because in any location that attracts traffic I expect to wait a significant amount of time for other vehicles who reached it before me. The Tesla network typically has stations of 6-10 stalls (or up to 40 or more in a couple of locations), typically placed and sized to match actual long distance travel routes and demand. The stalls are all networked, so I can see availability on the road. While I'm not a Tesla fanboy and would be happy to see this situation change, trying to pretend that other companies have an advantage on Tesla in this area is simply ignoring reality -- at least here in the US.
paddy_m 8y ago
I completely agree about buttons. Touch screens have no place in a car.
- fattire 8y ago
  Have you tried it or are you speculating?
  - dondawest 8y ago
    I have tried it and found that... touch screens have no place in a car. They inherently encourage distracted driving
tzhenghao 8y ago
This. As much as I'd like my car to have the shiny, futuristic stuff, I think buttons are essential when doing more common stuff without taking my eyes off the road. I don't mind hybrid approaches like the newer touchscreen capabilities on new BMW iDrive systems, but having physical buttons that I can feel and interact with without crashing is good UX design. Fwiw, you don't see high performance cars with an all touchscreen interface, because that'll be mental for the drivers under high vibrations.
- natch 8y ago
  You’re being fed false information if you think Tesla cars don’t have buttons. There are plenty of buttons and other physical controls even in the Model 3.
  - dondawest 8y ago
    You’re being fed false information if you think that those buttons cover all the typical functions people rely on buttons to perform. The fact is that Tesla cars encourage distracted driving by forcing drivers to avert their eyes from the road and look at an LED screen every time they want to do something as simple as turn on the air conditioning.
    - natch 8y ago
      Nice try attempting to turn the wording around, but you fell flat, and it's not constructive. The OP thinks there are no buttons at all. If you're changing the AC that often, AC can be reached and adjusted with muscle memory. No need to look. The controls are at a fixed point on the screen, near the edge, easy to brace a hand there (or not) if desired while using a thumb or finger to make a selection. Next time have some actual experience with the car before drawing conclusions.
      - dondawest 8y ago
        Ironically you drew your own false conclusion about me while telling me not to draw false conclusions: I have tons of experience with the car. I put many thousands of miles on the model S I used to own. I have literally thousands of hours of experience driving a Tesla. And at no point did my “muscle memory” kick in, because muscle memory only works with tactile feedback. AC absolutely can not be reached and adjusted on a Tesla from muscle memory, even when you have thousands of hours of experience driving the Tesla. Muscle memory simply doesn’t work without tactile feedback and placing a button close to the edge of a screen is not enough feedback for anyone. I challenge even the most experienced Tesla owner to turn their AC on and off from the screen while driving without looking at the screen, ten times in a row. $100 says their failure rate will be greater than 1/10. And then they’ll have to look at the screen while driving and become — by default — A DISTRACTED DRIVER. Teslas are death and vomit machines. And this is coming from someone who used to be a True Believer in the Church of Musk like you appear to be.
dmode 8y ago
This data point has no correlation with the headline. As Tesla has no problem selling Model 3s - the car with absolutely no buttons. The market has spoken and there is overwhelming support for no button car. Deliver reduction is primarily due to Fed tax credit expiry, shipping bottlenecks, and slowing S/X sales since they are very old cars. Also, Tesla making ~70k vehicles in a quarter is a remarkable achievement as they were selling 20k cars a quarter till last year
- et2o 8y ago
  I think the Jaguar competes price-wise more with the Model S and X then Model 3. Since he/she bought it instead of a Tesla, parent does correspond to headline.
  - et2o 8y ago
    *than
- natch 8y ago
  >the car with absolutely no buttons. The Model 3 has plenty of physical buttons, even not counting the door buttons.
xedeon 8y ago
> I feel that directly contributed to at least one lost potential sale for Tesla. Looking at the numbers, this is a hard no: https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ Q4 2018: Tesla Crushes Porsche & Jaguar Globally — 4th Quarter Sales Report https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/19/tesla-crushes-porsche-jaguar-globally-4th-quarter-sales-report/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/19/tesla-crushes-porsche-j...
xedeon 8y ago
I’m sorry but the I-Pace is a terrible value, just like the e-tron: https://twitter.com/matty_mogul/status/1113871540158914561 https://twitter.com/matty_mogul/status/1113871540158914561 But to each his own, I guess.
- steelframe 8y ago
  "Value" has more than one dimension.
loceng 8y ago
It would be easy to, and in a sleek way, integrate those limited requested number of controls all in a small row; I can't see it adding more than a few hundred dollars to the cost of each vehicle either - perhaps making it optional.
natch 8y ago
Nice try on using that hyperbolic wording, but the Supercharger network is growing like crazy, not on life support as you put it. And the charging infrastructure is not as closed as you are suggesting, as has been explained here repeatedly. What does the I-Pace charging network look like right now? Do they have a map of current high speed chargers? > stop lying to me about fully self-driving capabilities. This is again hyperbolic and, ironically, dishonest if you understand what Tesla has actually been saying about FSD.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- steelframe 8y ago
  Oh, sorry. I wasn't aware that Tesla has actually been saying, "We're quickly learning that FSD is orders of magnitude more difficult than we originally thought. If you buy AP2 with the FSD option, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that you'll actually get FSD on your AP2, and you'll never be able to upgrade your car with the hardware we sort of think you'll maybe actually need." I guess I just haven't been paying attention!
  - natch 8y ago
    Sarcasm noted. Elon and Tesla have in the past admitted mistakes, and you should credit them for that. If their current projections turn out to be off, based on their track record I am confident they will do the right thing. In the meantime whining about imaginary problems in a sarcastic manner doesn’t make you sound very convincing.

solean 8y ago

Audio controls are on the steering wheel (in the Model 3 at least)

dustindiamond 8y ago
It is a bit overkill, though, no? It seems every option is enumerated as its own physical switch, knob, or lever.
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  I haven't driven a car since I was a teenager, but isn't this desirable for an interface that needs to be operated by sense of touch alone? (So you can keep your eyes on the road.)
  - dustindiamond 8y ago
    If there were only one or two, but I think the Audi has at least 5 or 6 different and seperate ‘interfaces’ on and besides the steering wheel. To me, it seems like an overly complex UX.

azhenley 8y ago

I tried the Jaguar I-PACE (a friend just purchased one), but the reason it is a no-go for me is the lack of fast charging. I would be effectively stuck in a one-hour radius from my home. My Model 3 can conveniently do cross-country trips. I really wish Jaguar and Porsche adopted the Tesla charging system (I think Tesla tried to get them to).

ntsplnkv2 8y ago
> My Model 3 can conveniently do cross-country trips. Not compared to gasoline, though.
- alunchbox 8y ago
  Right, which we need to stop using? like yesterday.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- azhenley 8y ago
  Maybe. It forces me to take 30 minute breaks every 3-3.5 hours, which I have found far more enjoyable than what I did in my gasoline car (drive for 10 hours with only one five minute break). I quite like stopping at Tesla charging stations. They're generally in shopping areas with food and WiFi, and you can talk to other Tesla owners. It is like a new philosophy of traveling for me :)
  - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
    You can do that with a gasoline vehicle if you'd like. Or not, if you'd rather spend your time at your actual destination. Hey I'm all for Tesla improving the experience, it needs to be done, because the reality is the infrastructure is as important as the vehicle.
  - what_ever 8y ago
    Also, 30 minutes break is not needed if you are not driving alone.

twblalock 8y ago

Jaguar, Audi, and BMW are all working on electric cars to compete directly with Tesla. These are large car companies who know how to build millions of cars per year. They have large dealer networks already in place to sell and service their cars. Competition is going to get a lot tougher for Tesla over the next few years.

ajross 8y ago
Tesla builds more cars per quarter than Jaguar already. But yes, competition is (finally!) coming and that's a great thing.
- twblalock 8y ago
  Jaguar is part of Tata. If Tata gets good at manufacturing electric cars in large quantities it would be a big deal.
  - ajross 8y ago
    The point was more that Tesla has already scaled beyond the level where "these companies know how to build cars" is reasonable spin. Tesla's building plenty of cars, making money doing so, scaling rapidly, and can only be expected to be doing better still by the time those competitors arrive in the market. That's not to say that they won't be highly competetive cars, they might (I for one certainly hope they are). But you don't get to handwave away Tesla's existing success on the basis of production numbers. Honestly... your argument is a year stale. The window on "Tesla can't scale" closed. They did.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - dreaminvm 8y ago
      I am not sure that's a fair statement. The other manufacturers (most, but especially in the luxury segments) build higher quality cars with much lower rates of error. Tesla enthusiasts (much like early adopters of things) are forgiving and overlook a lot of imperfections (fit and finish on teslas vary greatly -see Youtube reviews). This has been the primary reason holding me back for purchasing one. Tesla's existing accomplishments and ability to meet tough goals is admirable, but their first to market advantage is starting to fade away as more companies bring to market competitive cars without the quality issues (however few they might be pumping out for now).

nwah1 8y ago

In complete agreement about the need for EVs in general to converge around one open royalty-free charging standard. More on the side of Tesla when it comes to interior minimalism and less buttons. Ideally, voice recognition should control almost everything, and that would be superior for both comfort and safety.

AlexandrB 8y ago
> Ideally, voice recognition should control almost everything, and that would be superior for both comfort and safety. Maybe for safety, definitely not for comfort. At least not for me. I hate voice interfaces - the first time I have to repeat myself to turn the volume up a little bit I will be wishing for a knob to turn instead.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Ideally, voice recognition should control almost everything, and that would be superior for both comfort and safety. Why would it? Voice interaction is both slow and distracting compared to operating physical controls with fairly rapidly acquired muscle memory; I would expect voice interaction as the sole mode of control for any feature to reduce safety and utility (which, for many car features outside of basic driving controls, is comfort), and only be an improvement if otherwise there was no practical way to provide the feature. EDIT: It may be debatable whether this falls in “no practical way”, but I definitely think a need for complex input (such as occurs in navigation) is, if not strictly included in that exception, its own exception.
twblalock 8y ago
The time for standards is when technology is mature. If you standardize too soon you restrict innovation.

legitster 8y ago

Mazda developed their physical controls by blindfolding testers and making sure they could use everything on touch alone. In comparison, Tesla's approach of putting everything in a single touchscreen is a cost cutting measure being sold as trendy BS. And dangerous to boot.

djanogo 8y ago
"putting everything in a single touchscreen is a cost cutting measure being sold as trendy BS" this, I am amazed at number of people (mainly investors) who think this is a _feature_ and something other OEM's envy. Even the damn McKinsey report shows that OEM's have to do this cut about $1800 in costs which will help bring EV's to mainstream in the next decade.
adamvalve 8y ago
Who moved my cheese? It really isn't a huge deal. There is a divide that I notice, older people cling to buttons and younger people are fine getting rid of them. Is it dangerous? Hardly, I just wait till I stop if I need to adjust something that isn't on my steering wheel which is actually pretty rare.
- tj-teej 8y ago
  "I just wait till I stop if I need to adjust something that isn't on my steering wheel which is actually pretty rare." Tesla knows some people won't, and they still built the car this way. That is objectively dangerous.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  " I just wait till I stop if I need to adjust something" A lot of people don't stop for sending texts so I doubt they will stop to adjust the temperature.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Is it dangerous? Hardly, I just wait till I stop if I need to adjust something that isn't on my steering wheel You say “Hardly”, and then discuss a behavior designed to mitigate the fact that exactly the thing you are denying is true.

iknowstuff 8y ago

Audio can be controlled via the wheels on the steering wheel. Suspension height is remembered and adjusted automatically in accordance with your car's location. There's no vroom vroom to worry about in an EV yet the torque is always instant. A/C is automatic -you probably want it around 72F/21C, just let the car automatically figure out the best way to get to that level. Model 3 supports CCS - in Europe natively, in the US via an adapter. While I agree about the self-driving goal shifting they're doing, it's still the best driver assist out there and you can simply opt out of buying it. So, I don't get it.

ody4242 8y ago

In my opinion, the Supercharger port (and the junction box) is way more advanced, compact, and cheaper than a CCS port. The Tesla onboard charger is clever enough to sense that it's connected to a DC charger, so they can use the same pins for AC and DC charging. Otoh, the CCS is a bulky connector + the germans were clever enough to add the PLC protocol as well, to make it even more complex and expensive. Don't get me wrong, I love standards, and I love, that the EU Model 3 can be charged essentially anywhere, but in my opinion, the Supercharger Type2 connector is better in every aspect, expect for it being proprietary.

credit_guy 8y ago
I remember Tesla saying they are letting anyone use their patents. Was that just some PR stunt?
- spiralx 8y ago
  Pretty much, as it would require the other party to make their own patents available to Tesla, or at least not use them against them - and Tesla just doesn't have anything like the patent portfolio that other manufacturers have, so they would be getting pretty much all the advantage.
  - natch 8y ago
    Who is getting then advantage is arguable depending on the specifics. Tesla is trying to give sustainability an advantage. It will not benefit from the gasoline tech patents of a traditional ICE manufacturer. This kind of patent sharing is pretty common and is done to advance the state of the art, not to grab PR.
carlivar 8y ago
So, Betamax versus VHS?
natch 8y ago
It’s not proprietary in the sense that the offer has been made for any car company to use the same connector technology (and even the supercharger network) royalty free. No car companies have taken Tesla up on this offer. The ones that expressed interest wanted Tesla to make needless changes... but part of the deal with Tesla offering the tech is that it has to be done in a way that does not burn extra engineering time for the Tesla team... so the requested changes would not fly.

matthewdgreen 8y ago

Another Tesla owner here. For me everything you say sounds convincing until I look at the Supercharging network. From my perspective every single issue you mention is a valid point; it's just that Tesla's nationwide (in North America) supercharging network is worth 5,000 points. When other manufacturers solve this problem (and Tesla hasn't met their quality standards) those manufacturers will be an option.

xkjkls 8y ago
It doesn't seem hard for other manufacturers to come to an industry standard for car charging, and then have that built out. There's only 119 supercharging stations in the US. For the rest of the automotive industry to match that, especially if they all decide to collaborate, would take less than a year to catch up.
- matthewdgreen 8y ago
  Even if everyone started planning tomorrow, you'd be optimistically looking at a couple of years before this hypothetical new charging network began to be useful. That makes your car useless for a large fraction of its lifespan. Whereas Tesla's charging network exists today. (And I would add that I've heard nothing serious about a plan like this being in the works, so it may in fact be several years away if it ever happens.)
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Even if everyone started planning tomorrow, you'd be optimistically looking at a couple of years before this hypothetical new charging network began to be useful. What if they started planning years ago, and also started deployment years ago? Because both CCS and CHAdeMO chargers are deployed (often as multi-standard chargers), with far greater numbers of stations than Tesla has, already.
    - matthewdgreen 8y ago
      I don't see this as being true. When I check Electrify America in my area (DC/Baltimore) it's a desert. Plugshare shows many stations, but when I view details they're primarily 1-2 chargers. These stations are useless for long-distance trips, because in any location that attracts traffic I expect to wait a significant amount of time for other vehicles who reached it before me. The Tesla network typically has stations of 6-10 stalls (or up to 40 or more in a couple of locations), typically placed and sized to match actual long distance travel routes and demand. The stalls are all networked, so I can see availability on the road. While I'm not a Tesla fanboy and would be happy to see this situation change, trying to pretend that other companies have an advantage on Tesla in this area is simply ignoring reality -- at least here in the US.

paddy_m 8y ago

I completely agree about buttons. Touch screens have no place in a car.

fattire 8y ago
Have you tried it or are you speculating?
- dondawest 8y ago
  I have tried it and found that... touch screens have no place in a car. They inherently encourage distracted driving

tzhenghao 8y ago

This. As much as I'd like my car to have the shiny, futuristic stuff, I think buttons are essential when doing more common stuff without taking my eyes off the road. I don't mind hybrid approaches like the newer touchscreen capabilities on new BMW iDrive systems, but having physical buttons that I can feel and interact with without crashing is good UX design. Fwiw, you don't see high performance cars with an all touchscreen interface, because that'll be mental for the drivers under high vibrations.

natch 8y ago
You’re being fed false information if you think Tesla cars don’t have buttons. There are plenty of buttons and other physical controls even in the Model 3.
- dondawest 8y ago
  You’re being fed false information if you think that those buttons cover all the typical functions people rely on buttons to perform. The fact is that Tesla cars encourage distracted driving by forcing drivers to avert their eyes from the road and look at an LED screen every time they want to do something as simple as turn on the air conditioning.
  - natch 8y ago
    Nice try attempting to turn the wording around, but you fell flat, and it's not constructive. The OP thinks there are no buttons at all. If you're changing the AC that often, AC can be reached and adjusted with muscle memory. No need to look. The controls are at a fixed point on the screen, near the edge, easy to brace a hand there (or not) if desired while using a thumb or finger to make a selection. Next time have some actual experience with the car before drawing conclusions.
    - dondawest 8y ago
      Ironically you drew your own false conclusion about me while telling me not to draw false conclusions: I have tons of experience with the car. I put many thousands of miles on the model S I used to own. I have literally thousands of hours of experience driving a Tesla. And at no point did my “muscle memory” kick in, because muscle memory only works with tactile feedback. AC absolutely can not be reached and adjusted on a Tesla from muscle memory, even when you have thousands of hours of experience driving the Tesla. Muscle memory simply doesn’t work without tactile feedback and placing a button close to the edge of a screen is not enough feedback for anyone. I challenge even the most experienced Tesla owner to turn their AC on and off from the screen while driving without looking at the screen, ten times in a row. $100 says their failure rate will be greater than 1/10. And then they’ll have to look at the screen while driving and become — by default — A DISTRACTED DRIVER. Teslas are death and vomit machines. And this is coming from someone who used to be a True Believer in the Church of Musk like you appear to be.

dmode 8y ago

This data point has no correlation with the headline. As Tesla has no problem selling Model 3s - the car with absolutely no buttons. The market has spoken and there is overwhelming support for no button car. Deliver reduction is primarily due to Fed tax credit expiry, shipping bottlenecks, and slowing S/X sales since they are very old cars. Also, Tesla making ~70k vehicles in a quarter is a remarkable achievement as they were selling 20k cars a quarter till last year

et2o 8y ago
I think the Jaguar competes price-wise more with the Model S and X then Model 3. Since he/she bought it instead of a Tesla, parent does correspond to headline.
- et2o 8y ago
  *than
natch 8y ago
>the car with absolutely no buttons. The Model 3 has plenty of physical buttons, even not counting the door buttons.

xedeon 8y ago

> I feel that directly contributed to at least one lost potential sale for Tesla. Looking at the numbers, this is a hard no: https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ Q4 2018: Tesla Crushes Porsche & Jaguar Globally — 4th Quarter Sales Report https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/19/tesla-crushes-porsche-jaguar-globally-4th-quarter-sales-report/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/19/tesla-crushes-porsche-j...

xedeon 8y ago

I’m sorry but the I-Pace is a terrible value, just like the e-tron: https://twitter.com/matty_mogul/status/1113871540158914561 https://twitter.com/matty_mogul/status/1113871540158914561 But to each his own, I guess.

steelframe 8y ago
"Value" has more than one dimension.

loceng 8y ago

It would be easy to, and in a sleek way, integrate those limited requested number of controls all in a small row; I can't see it adding more than a few hundred dollars to the cost of each vehicle either - perhaps making it optional.

natch 8y ago

Nice try on using that hyperbolic wording, but the Supercharger network is growing like crazy, not on life support as you put it. And the charging infrastructure is not as closed as you are suggesting, as has been explained here repeatedly. What does the I-Pace charging network look like right now? Do they have a map of current high speed chargers? > stop lying to me about fully self-driving capabilities. This is again hyperbolic and, ironically, dishonest if you understand what Tesla has actually been saying about FSD.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
steelframe 8y ago
Oh, sorry. I wasn't aware that Tesla has actually been saying, "We're quickly learning that FSD is orders of magnitude more difficult than we originally thought. If you buy AP2 with the FSD option, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that you'll actually get FSD on your AP2, and you'll never be able to upgrade your car with the hardware we sort of think you'll maybe actually need." I guess I just haven't been paying attention!
- natch 8y ago
  Sarcasm noted. Elon and Tesla have in the past admitted mistakes, and you should credit them for that. If their current projections turn out to be off, based on their track record I am confident they will do the right thing. In the meantime whining about imaginary problems in a sarcastic manner doesn’t make you sound very convincing.