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How do people feel on a congestion fee for sidewalks. Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable. If you want to walk on a sidewalk during

How do people feel on a congestion fee for sidewalks. Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable. If you want to walk on a sidewalk during the busiest times you should pay a congestion fee. Why would we stop at just roads?

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable One, pedestrian congestion doesn't exhibit traffic congestion's negative externalities. (You have to get to trampling-risk densities before that occurs.) Two, "sidewalk passes" have no precedent. Congestion pricing has lots of precedent [1]. Three, this is a problem getting attention [2]. America has spent decades throwing lanes at traffic. Not all of that was a waste. Similar effort has yet to broadly benefit pedestrians. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congestion_pricing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congestion_pricing [2] https://www.thevillager.com/2019/04/grassroots-group-calls-for-shared-streets/ https://www.thevillager.com/2019/04/grassroots-group-calls-f...
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  The area around Penn station reaches trampling risk densities five days a week.
  - scrose 8y ago
    Funnily enough, the area around Penn station allocates nearly 80% of the space there to cars, which carry only a tiny fraction of the people traveling through daily. For anyone not familiar with the Penn area, check out this Streetfilms video to get an idea of how lopsided the street allocation is: https://vimeo.com/268616894 https://vimeo.com/268616894.
alex_anglin 8y ago
Two reasons would be that ealking doesn't pollute and is healthy activity.
scrose 8y ago
Because 20 people can and do fit into the same space that a single SUV occupied by one person takes up trawling for a fare through Midtown, yet 70+ percent of the streetscape is allocated to accommodate that SUV. Also keep in mind pedestrians have to share space with sidewalk planters, outdoor seating, trash bags, and many times, cars parked partially on the sidewalk, making the usable walking space less than 10% of the size of the total street space, yet still allowing exponentially more people to move faster than the cars the street was designed for.
the_gastropod 8y ago
Walking is the most efficient mode of transportation, with regards to space used. The problem of crowded sidewalks is relieved by expanding the sidewalks at the cost of space for cars.
otikik 8y ago
My understanding is that these are not "congestion fees", but "pollution fees". They are there to make air less unhealthy, not to make traffic more fluid.
CalRobert 8y ago
Well, considering that the streets were for walking and drivers stole them, that seems a tad unfair. Here's what they looked like before: http://static.libsyn.com/p/assets/c/c/3/a/cc3a56fafeaa6119/Screen_Shot_2016-07-24_at_11.07.12_PM.png http://static.libsyn.com/p/assets/c/c/3/a/cc3a56fafeaa6119/S...
moorhosj 8y ago
You are getting lots of comments, but the most obvious reason is that the act of driving on a road degrades it much faster than walking on a sidewalk. Thus, it needs to be repaired more frequently. Increase the number of cars and the frequency of repair (i.e. costs) increases.
- nradov 8y ago
  Passenger cars cause virtually zero damage to city streets. All of the degradation comes from heavier vehicles.
  - kfarr 8y ago
    They do kill people tho
hannasanarion 8y ago
NYC sidewalks are only congested because 90% of street space is dedicated to cars. On 6th avenue near 42nd, there is 5 feet of sidewalk space that thousands of people have to squeeze onto, while cars enjoy a 6 lane highway totaling 70 feet. Why do cars need a 6 lane road through the middle of the busiest pedestrian neighborhood in the world?
hessproject 8y ago
For one, the crowded NYC sidewalks are at least partially caused by the sidewalk narrowing efforts to make room for cars: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2016/07/01/the-new-york-of-2016-needs-the-wide-generous-sidewalks-of-1906/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2016/07/01/the-new-york-of-2016-...
ocschwar 8y ago
Seems easier to widen the sidewalks by taking away a car lane.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable One, pedestrian congestion doesn't exhibit traffic congestion's negative externalities. (You have to get to trampling-risk densities before that occurs.) Two, "sidewalk passes" have no precedent. Congestion pricing has lots of precedent [1]. Three, this is a problem getting attention [2]. America has spent decades throwing lanes at traffic. Not all of that was a waste. Similar effort has yet to broadly benefit pedestrians. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congestion_pricing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congestion_pricing [2] https://www.thevillager.com/2019/04/grassroots-group-calls-for-shared-streets/ https://www.thevillager.com/2019/04/grassroots-group-calls-f...

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
The area around Penn station reaches trampling risk densities five days a week.
- scrose 8y ago
  Funnily enough, the area around Penn station allocates nearly 80% of the space there to cars, which carry only a tiny fraction of the people traveling through daily. For anyone not familiar with the Penn area, check out this Streetfilms video to get an idea of how lopsided the street allocation is: https://vimeo.com/268616894 https://vimeo.com/268616894.

alex_anglin 8y ago

Two reasons would be that ealking doesn't pollute and is healthy activity.

scrose 8y ago

Because 20 people can and do fit into the same space that a single SUV occupied by one person takes up trawling for a fare through Midtown, yet 70+ percent of the streetscape is allocated to accommodate that SUV. Also keep in mind pedestrians have to share space with sidewalk planters, outdoor seating, trash bags, and many times, cars parked partially on the sidewalk, making the usable walking space less than 10% of the size of the total street space, yet still allowing exponentially more people to move faster than the cars the street was designed for.

the_gastropod 8y ago

Walking is the most efficient mode of transportation, with regards to space used. The problem of crowded sidewalks is relieved by expanding the sidewalks at the cost of space for cars.

otikik 8y ago

My understanding is that these are not "congestion fees", but "pollution fees". They are there to make air less unhealthy, not to make traffic more fluid.

CalRobert 8y ago

Well, considering that the streets were for walking and drivers stole them, that seems a tad unfair. Here's what they looked like before: http://static.libsyn.com/p/assets/c/c/3/a/cc3a56fafeaa6119/Screen_Shot_2016-07-24_at_11.07.12_PM.png http://static.libsyn.com/p/assets/c/c/3/a/cc3a56fafeaa6119/S...

moorhosj 8y ago

You are getting lots of comments, but the most obvious reason is that the act of driving on a road degrades it much faster than walking on a sidewalk. Thus, it needs to be repaired more frequently. Increase the number of cars and the frequency of repair (i.e. costs) increases.

nradov 8y ago
Passenger cars cause virtually zero damage to city streets. All of the degradation comes from heavier vehicles.
- kfarr 8y ago
  They do kill people tho

hannasanarion 8y ago

NYC sidewalks are only congested because 90% of street space is dedicated to cars. On 6th avenue near 42nd, there is 5 feet of sidewalk space that thousands of people have to squeeze onto, while cars enjoy a 6 lane highway totaling 70 feet. Why do cars need a 6 lane road through the middle of the busiest pedestrian neighborhood in the world?

hessproject 8y ago

For one, the crowded NYC sidewalks are at least partially caused by the sidewalk narrowing efforts to make room for cars: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2016/07/01/the-new-york-of-2016-needs-the-wide-generous-sidewalks-of-1906/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2016/07/01/the-new-york-of-2016-...

ocschwar 8y ago

Seems easier to widen the sidewalks by taking away a car lane.