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> One reason that Europe has very few innovative new companies created in the last 25 years is that everyone is at the coffee shop writing poetry. This does no

> One reason that Europe has very few innovative new companies created in the last 25 years is that everyone is at the coffee shop writing poetry. This does not dispute the central point of the quoted piece, which is that the quality of life of most Americans is very poor contrast to that of the average person in some subset of European countries. I would wager that most coffee shop employees are more concerned with labor protections, healthcare, social welfare, the ability to afford housing and take vacations than whether their country’s economy is producing “innovative companies” (read: tech startups?). This was certainly true of myself when I worked in food service. Even so, this point does not stand well on its own. It may be that Europeans are deincentivized from creating enormously overvalued startups because their quality of life is much better (although I question whether this is worth bragging about, from a US standpoint). Nevertheless, I’d consider things like lack of a single market, fragmented languages and cultures, completely different VC environment, and so on to be much more impactful in that regard.

sokoloff 8y ago
There's obviously a pretty tight feedback mechanism between the startup trajectory and the VC environment. (I believe the former drives the latter in the long-run, rather than the opposite.)
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Our quality of life is not poor. We just have different prioritizes. See the guy who lives in a double wide but has a Corvette in the driveway.
- onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
  This whole entire argument is pretty strange to me. It's upper class people from Europe debating with upper class people from the US where it's better for "middle class" people. If you've read Picketty at all, it's pretty clear there is no middle class. And the only place in the world a true and sizeable middle class ever existed was the post WWII United States from like the 50s to (maybe as late as) the 90s. Life sucks for lower class people everywhere. I suppose it's slightly less shitty for lower class people in Europe. According to Picketty, the capital / income ratio had been substantially higher in Europe for the last 20 years than it is the US -- and at the time of writing Capital in the 21st century, it was still higher in Europe. That is to say, social mobility -- as depressingly low as it is in the modern US -- is (and has been) MUCH worse in Europe. America's biggest flow truly is it's greatest strength. This is the most hopelessly optimistic group of people on the planet. Most Americans truly believe that one day they'll be successful. You know why they believe that? Because for 40 years, this was really the only place in the world where that was plausible for an average Joe. It's still one of the few places where it's even slightly statically likely. I think most people would trade hope for a slightly less shitty life. I think that's why Americans don't really care that much why life for lower class people in Europe is slightly better than it is for people in the US.
  - ergothus 8y ago
    > social mobility -- as depressingly low as it is in the modern US -- is (and has been) MUCH worse in Europe. This doesnt match the reporting I've seen. (Example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility ) Of course, this may be twisted statistics - what are you basing your claim on?
  - jeffbax 8y ago
    I think you're putting too much weight into Picketty's fairly contentious conclusions. https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/99455/how_different_studies_measure_income_inequality.pdf https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/99455/... https://www.econlib.org/archives/2014/06/unpersuaded.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2014/06/unpersuaded.html https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/capital-punishment https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/capital-... http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/krugman-reviews-picketty/ http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/krugman-reviews-picketty/ (for some starters, if you somehow have not seen how it is not the Bible that some people want it to be?). Also it is hard to compare Europe's norms which country-by-country are generally featuring a lot more ethnic-cohesion and have social spending heavily subsidized by America's military (not to mention much more density for things like trains) I say this as someone who wishes there were more dense, EU-style cities in America. Mobility is certainly not dead in America, and the middle class is shrinking because more people are moving up and making more money overall: http://www.aei.org/publication/yes-the-us-middle-class-is-shrinking-but-its-because-americans-are-moving-up-and-no-americans-are-not-struggling-to-afford-a-home/ http://www.aei.org/publication/yes-the-us-middle-class-is-sh... I think anyone trying to say "you don't know how shitty you have it!" is akin to saying "you vote against your own interests" which is really saying "I think I know better than you" -- which is trash. The fact of the matter is a lot of people prefer US-style suburban living. America certainly has its share or problems, reliable/trustable Governance being a big one (social welfare spending in the US, despite the money thrown at the problem, is just not up to the standards of northern EU although certainly preferable to what goes on in southern EU -- see cohesion argument though culture matters a lot too) See this as an example why both the left and right suck when it comes to US healthcare: https://www.econlib.org/the-case-for-european-health-care/ https://www.econlib.org/the-case-for-european-health-care/ In fact, I would argue much of the problem in the US arises because our politicians are simply full of bad ideas and not held accountable to them. Fortunately our institutions restrict them from running amok too much. ex: the US subways suck because city politicians allowed construction and transit unions to run roughshod over the taxpayers for years on top of increasingly stupid regulations (lol @ US being the reliable land of laissez-faire) and that is why it costs 7x more to deploy subway in the US than most first world nations https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... Still, I am willing to bet a chunk of cash that the US generally has the better recipe for ensuring economic dynamism and mobility. I'll take the hopeful over the complacent, given the choice.
wozniacki 8y ago
It may be that Europeans are deincentivized from creating enormously overvalued startups because their quality of life is much better Come on you didn't even have a ride-hailing service like Uber and relied on those stodgy black cabs. Ireland still doesn't have Uber or Lyft.[1] [1] Does Uber or Lyft exist in Dublin?? https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g186591-i88-k11258020-Does_Uber_or_Lyft_exist_in_Dublin-Ireland.html https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g186591-i88-k11258020-...
- ghaff 8y ago
  >stodgy black cabs Which IMO are better, if pricier, than Uber in London. They're what I take. But that isn't to disagree with your basic point. If cabs in some European cities are better than cabs in many American cities, that certainly isn't the case everywhere.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  Dublin deregulated taxis so Uber and Lyft would be pointless. You can book a taxi from an app which is basically what uber and Lyft are anyways. We could do that long before Uber and Lyft became the household names they are today too.
- Supernaut 8y ago
  We don't have Uber or Lyft here because Europeans in general regard their business model as being highly problematic. It is nevertheless easy to hail a taxi in the cities, and you have the reassurance of knowing that the driver will be licensed and insured.
- tastroder 8y ago
  We don't have Uber in Germany either, instead we have labour and transportation safety laws that hinder a service like that. While that might be a trade-off one could certainly argue about I'm not sure why that would present an argument purely for people having Uber leading an objectively better life. I'd certainly prefer having the above in place and enough money to pay for a cab if I need one, even if it's maybe a tad less convenient at the moment.
- siidooloo 8y ago
shraremywin2 8y ago
You forgot the biggest reason. Antitrust enforcement. Would facebook be facebook had it had to compete with instagram? Would google be google without youtube or doubleclick?
- 0x445442 8y ago
  Yes this is a great point. Antitrust enforcement is one of the few legitimate roles of the Federal Government in my opinion. That's why I wish a coalition could be built around personal freedom and the reduction of welfare, starting with welfare of the corporate kind.
bepotts 8y ago
Americans don't believe the onus is on the whole to make sure the individual lives a happy life. We just don't have the collectivist culture the Europeans have. I think this is a great thing, and is why America is where most of the innovation, cultural, and political power is. I personally have lower taxes, high quality healthcare, and live in an awesome location, and I got all of that through an education and training. That is available to almost every American if they just put in the work. That, to me, is not just a great thing but the morally right thing. Apply yourself and make a better future for you and your family. To the people responding to me with the most predictable lines: poverty exists in Europe; so does homelessness; as does food insecurity. Please don't tell me that Europe is some great place where poverty doesn't exist and everyone is living great lives. It is also possible to be sympathetic toward the most needy while not supporting collectivism. You know what the poor need most? A marketable skill. A good job. Support programs that give people the skills they need in order to compete in a globalized market. It's funny how collectivists never push that though, and instead push for more collectivism.
- hello_friendos 8y ago
  Is that why people cannot afford insulin in America. This is something to be celebrated?
  - ytNumbers 8y ago
    Even when health care is free (but rationed), there's a ton of people who are killed by delays to receiving a needed medical procedure. Every approach to health care has its down sides.
    - ergothus 8y ago
      "Every approach has downsides" does not mean one approach isnt objectively worse than others...
      - ytNumbers 8y ago
        Which approach is better is very difficult to objectively evaluate. There are a vast number of yardsticks you could use, and I can't see two people ever agreeing on which yardstick is the right one to judge a health care system. Since cancer is one of the top quickly fatal medical conditions, I consider the wait to get treated for cancer to be an excellent yardstick for evaluating any health care system. In this regard, the USA is way better than many countries that have government run free (but rationed) health care systems.
Frost1x 8y ago
How many Americans have enough capital to comfortably risk a startup and or and survive the fallout? If they fail, what protections do they have to not live their days on the streets? I don't think having a higher quality of life deincentivizes creating new valuable startups. If anything, it has a positive effect because those individuals are able to take more calculated risks towards a project and fail gracefully. If you're working paycheck to paycheck and in debt up to your eyeballs, that American dream of success carrot may look awfully appetizing but it's far too risky. It's significantly different if you're wagering that capital you saved up to build a pool or new garage vs. the finances for next months rent/food. Those are the types of decisions many Americans have to make. Frankly, I don't understand how some can slave tirelessly climbing the corporate ladders for small gains. I'll do only what I need to and focus on my private life. I work to live, I don't live to work. If I do live to work I would seriously consider starting a business because that's the only way I could dedicate that commitment of my limited time on Earth. Slaving 60-80 hours so shareholders n-degrees separated from me can get another Yacht isn't motivation. I'd much rather become your competitor. The problem is, industries are becoming more and more capital intensive to enter, so becoming the competition just isn't feasible for many cases, not without heavy outside investment or an absolutely brilliant idea that competitors can't simply clone or capture you before you get momentum to compete.
RestlessMind 8y ago
It is pointless to compare richest subset of Europe to the entire US. If you want to do a fair comparison, compare entire Europe to the entire US. Then we see that Europe is not that much better and so called "awesome European welfare" is not reflecting into key metrics. Just to pick two examples, if Europe provides vastly better healthcare and education for free/cheap to its citizens, why is life expectancy or unemployment rate comparable to the US? Life expectancy: ranges between 71.5-89.4 years across European countries [1], 73.4-81.3 across US states [2] Unemployment rate: ranges between 1-31.4% between European countries [3], 2.1-18% across US states/territories [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Eu... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_unemployment_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...
- amf12 8y ago
  > It is pointless to compare richest subset of Europe to the entire US. If you want to do a fair comparison, compare entire Europe to the entire US. I don't think that's really a fair comparison. Every city from NYC to a small town in Midwest get the same benefits of being one of the richest countries in the world. American federal policies affect everyone in America, rich or poor, in big cities or small towns. Comparing with every European country is disingenuous because that group also consists of Ukraine, Serbia etc. I would way a fair comparison will be with European countries with similar economic indicators as the USA. If you do that, you will notice that metrics are indeed better in those countries.
amf12 8y ago
> fragmented languages and cultures This is what people forget when they compare USA and Europe, because it's not really easy for Americans to grasp this until they come live in Europe. I feel this is an understatement, and the different cultures and languages often leads to market fragmentation.

sokoloff 8y ago

There's obviously a pretty tight feedback mechanism between the startup trajectory and the VC environment. (I believe the former drives the latter in the long-run, rather than the opposite.)

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Our quality of life is not poor. We just have different prioritizes. See the guy who lives in a double wide but has a Corvette in the driveway.

onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
This whole entire argument is pretty strange to me. It's upper class people from Europe debating with upper class people from the US where it's better for "middle class" people. If you've read Picketty at all, it's pretty clear there is no middle class. And the only place in the world a true and sizeable middle class ever existed was the post WWII United States from like the 50s to (maybe as late as) the 90s. Life sucks for lower class people everywhere. I suppose it's slightly less shitty for lower class people in Europe. According to Picketty, the capital / income ratio had been substantially higher in Europe for the last 20 years than it is the US -- and at the time of writing Capital in the 21st century, it was still higher in Europe. That is to say, social mobility -- as depressingly low as it is in the modern US -- is (and has been) MUCH worse in Europe. America's biggest flow truly is it's greatest strength. This is the most hopelessly optimistic group of people on the planet. Most Americans truly believe that one day they'll be successful. You know why they believe that? Because for 40 years, this was really the only place in the world where that was plausible for an average Joe. It's still one of the few places where it's even slightly statically likely. I think most people would trade hope for a slightly less shitty life. I think that's why Americans don't really care that much why life for lower class people in Europe is slightly better than it is for people in the US.
- ergothus 8y ago
  > social mobility -- as depressingly low as it is in the modern US -- is (and has been) MUCH worse in Europe. This doesnt match the reporting I've seen. (Example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility ) Of course, this may be twisted statistics - what are you basing your claim on?
- jeffbax 8y ago
  I think you're putting too much weight into Picketty's fairly contentious conclusions. https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/99455/how_different_studies_measure_income_inequality.pdf https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/99455/... https://www.econlib.org/archives/2014/06/unpersuaded.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2014/06/unpersuaded.html https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/capital-punishment https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/capital-... http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/krugman-reviews-picketty/ http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/krugman-reviews-picketty/ (for some starters, if you somehow have not seen how it is not the Bible that some people want it to be?). Also it is hard to compare Europe's norms which country-by-country are generally featuring a lot more ethnic-cohesion and have social spending heavily subsidized by America's military (not to mention much more density for things like trains) I say this as someone who wishes there were more dense, EU-style cities in America. Mobility is certainly not dead in America, and the middle class is shrinking because more people are moving up and making more money overall: http://www.aei.org/publication/yes-the-us-middle-class-is-shrinking-but-its-because-americans-are-moving-up-and-no-americans-are-not-struggling-to-afford-a-home/ http://www.aei.org/publication/yes-the-us-middle-class-is-sh... I think anyone trying to say "you don't know how shitty you have it!" is akin to saying "you vote against your own interests" which is really saying "I think I know better than you" -- which is trash. The fact of the matter is a lot of people prefer US-style suburban living. America certainly has its share or problems, reliable/trustable Governance being a big one (social welfare spending in the US, despite the money thrown at the problem, is just not up to the standards of northern EU although certainly preferable to what goes on in southern EU -- see cohesion argument though culture matters a lot too) See this as an example why both the left and right suck when it comes to US healthcare: https://www.econlib.org/the-case-for-european-health-care/ https://www.econlib.org/the-case-for-european-health-care/ In fact, I would argue much of the problem in the US arises because our politicians are simply full of bad ideas and not held accountable to them. Fortunately our institutions restrict them from running amok too much. ex: the US subways suck because city politicians allowed construction and transit unions to run roughshod over the taxpayers for years on top of increasingly stupid regulations (lol @ US being the reliable land of laissez-faire) and that is why it costs 7x more to deploy subway in the US than most first world nations https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... Still, I am willing to bet a chunk of cash that the US generally has the better recipe for ensuring economic dynamism and mobility. I'll take the hopeful over the complacent, given the choice.

wozniacki 8y ago

It may be that Europeans are deincentivized from creating enormously overvalued startups because their quality of life is much better Come on you didn't even have a ride-hailing service like Uber and relied on those stodgy black cabs. Ireland still doesn't have Uber or Lyft.[1] [1] Does Uber or Lyft exist in Dublin?? https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g186591-i88-k11258020-Does_Uber_or_Lyft_exist_in_Dublin-Ireland.html https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g186591-i88-k11258020-...

ghaff 8y ago
>stodgy black cabs Which IMO are better, if pricier, than Uber in London. They're what I take. But that isn't to disagree with your basic point. If cabs in some European cities are better than cabs in many American cities, that certainly isn't the case everywhere.
rorykoehler 8y ago
Dublin deregulated taxis so Uber and Lyft would be pointless. You can book a taxi from an app which is basically what uber and Lyft are anyways. We could do that long before Uber and Lyft became the household names they are today too.
Supernaut 8y ago
We don't have Uber or Lyft here because Europeans in general regard their business model as being highly problematic. It is nevertheless easy to hail a taxi in the cities, and you have the reassurance of knowing that the driver will be licensed and insured.
tastroder 8y ago
We don't have Uber in Germany either, instead we have labour and transportation safety laws that hinder a service like that. While that might be a trade-off one could certainly argue about I'm not sure why that would present an argument purely for people having Uber leading an objectively better life. I'd certainly prefer having the above in place and enough money to pay for a cab if I need one, even if it's maybe a tad less convenient at the moment.
siidooloo 8y ago

shraremywin2 8y ago

You forgot the biggest reason. Antitrust enforcement. Would facebook be facebook had it had to compete with instagram? Would google be google without youtube or doubleclick?

0x445442 8y ago
Yes this is a great point. Antitrust enforcement is one of the few legitimate roles of the Federal Government in my opinion. That's why I wish a coalition could be built around personal freedom and the reduction of welfare, starting with welfare of the corporate kind.

bepotts 8y ago

Americans don't believe the onus is on the whole to make sure the individual lives a happy life. We just don't have the collectivist culture the Europeans have. I think this is a great thing, and is why America is where most of the innovation, cultural, and political power is. I personally have lower taxes, high quality healthcare, and live in an awesome location, and I got all of that through an education and training. That is available to almost every American if they just put in the work. That, to me, is not just a great thing but the morally right thing. Apply yourself and make a better future for you and your family. To the people responding to me with the most predictable lines: poverty exists in Europe; so does homelessness; as does food insecurity. Please don't tell me that Europe is some great place where poverty doesn't exist and everyone is living great lives. It is also possible to be sympathetic toward the most needy while not supporting collectivism. You know what the poor need most? A marketable skill. A good job. Support programs that give people the skills they need in order to compete in a globalized market. It's funny how collectivists never push that though, and instead push for more collectivism.

hello_friendos 8y ago
Is that why people cannot afford insulin in America. This is something to be celebrated?
- ytNumbers 8y ago
  Even when health care is free (but rationed), there's a ton of people who are killed by delays to receiving a needed medical procedure. Every approach to health care has its down sides.
  - ergothus 8y ago
    "Every approach has downsides" does not mean one approach isnt objectively worse than others...
    - ytNumbers 8y ago
      Which approach is better is very difficult to objectively evaluate. There are a vast number of yardsticks you could use, and I can't see two people ever agreeing on which yardstick is the right one to judge a health care system. Since cancer is one of the top quickly fatal medical conditions, I consider the wait to get treated for cancer to be an excellent yardstick for evaluating any health care system. In this regard, the USA is way better than many countries that have government run free (but rationed) health care systems.

Frost1x 8y ago

How many Americans have enough capital to comfortably risk a startup and or and survive the fallout? If they fail, what protections do they have to not live their days on the streets? I don't think having a higher quality of life deincentivizes creating new valuable startups. If anything, it has a positive effect because those individuals are able to take more calculated risks towards a project and fail gracefully. If you're working paycheck to paycheck and in debt up to your eyeballs, that American dream of success carrot may look awfully appetizing but it's far too risky. It's significantly different if you're wagering that capital you saved up to build a pool or new garage vs. the finances for next months rent/food. Those are the types of decisions many Americans have to make. Frankly, I don't understand how some can slave tirelessly climbing the corporate ladders for small gains. I'll do only what I need to and focus on my private life. I work to live, I don't live to work. If I do live to work I would seriously consider starting a business because that's the only way I could dedicate that commitment of my limited time on Earth. Slaving 60-80 hours so shareholders n-degrees separated from me can get another Yacht isn't motivation. I'd much rather become your competitor. The problem is, industries are becoming more and more capital intensive to enter, so becoming the competition just isn't feasible for many cases, not without heavy outside investment or an absolutely brilliant idea that competitors can't simply clone or capture you before you get momentum to compete.

RestlessMind 8y ago

It is pointless to compare richest subset of Europe to the entire US. If you want to do a fair comparison, compare entire Europe to the entire US. Then we see that Europe is not that much better and so called "awesome European welfare" is not reflecting into key metrics. Just to pick two examples, if Europe provides vastly better healthcare and education for free/cheap to its citizens, why is life expectancy or unemployment rate comparable to the US? Life expectancy: ranges between 71.5-89.4 years across European countries [1], 73.4-81.3 across US states [2] Unemployment rate: ranges between 1-31.4% between European countries [3], 2.1-18% across US states/territories [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Eu... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_unemployment_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

amf12 8y ago
> It is pointless to compare richest subset of Europe to the entire US. If you want to do a fair comparison, compare entire Europe to the entire US. I don't think that's really a fair comparison. Every city from NYC to a small town in Midwest get the same benefits of being one of the richest countries in the world. American federal policies affect everyone in America, rich or poor, in big cities or small towns. Comparing with every European country is disingenuous because that group also consists of Ukraine, Serbia etc. I would way a fair comparison will be with European countries with similar economic indicators as the USA. If you do that, you will notice that metrics are indeed better in those countries.

amf12 8y ago

> fragmented languages and cultures This is what people forget when they compare USA and Europe, because it's not really easy for Americans to grasp this until they come live in Europe. I feel this is an understatement, and the different cultures and languages often leads to market fragmentation.