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Quick reminder: Non US citizens only go to conferences outside the US. There is no excuse we should put up with this. Canada and EU are much better locations fo
by musha68k 8y ago
Quick reminder: Non US citizens only go to conferences outside the US.
There is no excuse we should put up with this.
Canada and EU are much better locations for this reason alone.
- throwaway91872 8y agoCanada is not exactly welcoming to visitor. Particularly visitors that may have a mark on their background check from any number of years ago. Good luck getting in at all -- its becoming a common mention in hip hop lyrics even.
- jfim 8y agoPretty much any country does this. Unless you're a citizen of that country, you have no right to enter it and should be on your best behavior at all times, and they can decline you for any reason they feel like, justified or not.
- throwaway91872 8y agoI've been all across the world. I've been turned away from Canada twice (every occasion) over some weed 15 years ago. No other country cares unless you are applying for a long term visa or something. I even tried applying for the right to visit and was turned down (again, over weed).
- wang_li 8y agoAmericans who have concealed carry permits on their person when entering Canada will have their vehicle searched with a fine toothed comb.
- village-idiot 8y agoThat’s actually pretty reasonable. I don’t think anyone reasonable thinks Canada doesn’t have the right to enforce their firearm laws at their border.
- wang_li 8y agoI agree that no one who is reasonable thinks that Americans who travel to Canada get to exercise the rights they hold as Americans in America. But is having a concealed carry permit in your wallet a reasonable indication that you have a gun on your person or in your vehicle? Statistically, in the US, CC permit holders are the most law abiding group in the country.
- mikeash 8y agoLet’s imagine, hypothetically, that a visitor came to the US and had a permit from their country of origin allowing them to own and travel with slaves. Would border patrol be justified in giving them extra scrutiny to see if they might have one with them?
- vsl 8y agoWell, no? Assuming by default that somebody would break the law, just because you politically disagree with them, is not justified. As said above, CC holders are among the most law-abiding citizens (this is true in my country too). They're aware of the laws governing their permit and assuming by default that they'd break other countries' laws is preposterous. You don't just forget that you're carrying when you travel abroad or by airplane. And you sure as hell don't do something as idiotic as that, with the accompanying consequences, intentionally.
- mikeash 8y agoIt’s not about political disagreement. It’s about having a permit for something that’s not allowed to transit the border. Assuming nefarious intent by default is, for better or worse, how border controls operate almost everywhere for almost everyone. You have to demonstrate that you’re OK to enter, they don’t have to demonstrate that you’re not. As far as forgetting that you’re carrying, numerous examples say otherwise. Random data point: the TSA confiscated over 4,000 guns last year, of which I imagine approximately 100% were inadvertently packed by innocent people. Whether it’s intentional is immaterial; Canada doesn’t want guns crossing the border, and they couldn’t care less if you’re doing it by accident.
- justin66 8y ago> Americans who have concealed carry permits on their person when entering Canada will have their vehicle searched with a fine toothed comb. If the Canadian border authorities are searching your person, such that they are likely to notice something like a concealed carry permit, your border crossing has already gone south.
- Macross8299 8y ago>Canada is not exactly welcoming to visitor. Particularly visitors that may have a mark on their background check from any number of years ago. Not a bug, working as intended. Entering a country that you aren't a citizen of isn't some inalienable human right, especially if you're a convicted criminal.
- throwaway91872 8y agoBy that same token there is no reason to complain about how difficult it can be to enter the U.S. for certain individuals -- or working as intended as you call it. I also find it a bit disturbing how easily you apply law & order in the name of a country that was not involved in deciding the validity of that decision or the circumstances behind it.
- Macross8299 8y ago>By that same token there is no reason to complain about how difficult it can be to enter the U.S. for certain individuals Well, yeah, entering the US as a non-citizen is a privilege granted at the discretion of the US federal government. Border control is an essential function of a sovereign state. >I also find it a bit disturbing how easily you apply law & order in the name of a country that was not involved in deciding the validity of that decision or the circumstances behind it. It's disturbing to not want criminal elements freely entering your country? If they're a not refugee and they can't follow the law in their country of origin, why should any other country be obligated to let them in?
- throwaway91872 8y agoLet me put things into perspective for you. Cops raided the wrong house (battering ram and everything) which happened to be where I lived. They ripped up floor boards and broken holes in the wall -- they found $300 worth of personal weed. So they confiscated everything I own because it could possibly be related to drug money. I'm also incarcerated without the ability to post bail (because cops just took everything). I wasn't granted personal recognizance bond, it was $50,000 -- my family takes this as a sign that I must be guilty of whatever they say so I have no access to money for bail or for a lawyer. So I did my own case work while I sat in jail for 3 months, got a different judge to finally give me a personal recognizance bond, pick apart the prosecutor and detective at later hearings/motions, and finally leading up to the day before a jury trial (for two felony charges). I was offered a better plea and took it -- everything leading up to this point was so fucking asinine that despite all the headway I made I could not trust I would not spend years in prison. Its quite clear they did not want to look like idiots after getting a warrant and executing it in force based entirely on some 17 year old kid told them while being interrogated himself. I'm only a criminal to someone like you.
- thebooktocome 8y agoAlso, don't fly through the US to get to that conference in Canada.
- Diederich 8y agoIs it a risk if you stay in the airport, in the secure zone? (Whatever it's called...I've flown rarely over the past couple of decades.)
- angott 8y agoThe US forces you to clear customs regardless of your final destination (transfers included).
- Cerium 8y agoAll flights that stop in the USA require all passengers to clear customs before continuing their journey.
- Diederich 8y agoI had no idea, thank you.
- schoen 8y agoThis is often called "sterile transit" (the ability to depart the airport without passing through immigration), and the U.S. and Mexico (and apparently Canada) don't allow this, while generally European and Asian countries do. https://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_States https://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_S...
- TheRealPomax 8y agoNo EU airport allows this for flights from outside the EU/Schengen zone. Every international airport has dedicated "EU internal" and "all other" terminal pathways for this reason.
- microcolonel 8y agoThis is not remotely unique to the U.S.
- realusername 8y agoNo it's not but this kind of issue tends to happen more frequently in the US.
- Diederich 8y agoHonest question: do you know where I can find the data to support that?
- realusername 8y agoThere's not going to be any data, border agencies are as non-transparent as you can get.
- rmdashrfstar 8y agoAnecdotally?
- coldtea 8y agoYes, or as we used to call it back in the day "empirically". Plus, it doesn't matter if it happens as much or more in some backwater third world country. It's already enough of a problem that among first world countries the US is quite a pain in the ass airport control. Heck, it's enough of a problem that it feels like a pain in the ass. It wont be less of a problem if per capita e.g. Belgium or Albania are worse...
- cylinder 8y agoThere isn't data on this. This incident likely wasn't logged in any way. CBP is a rogue agency and the least transparent. They don't respond to FOIA anymore either.
- Marsymars 8y agoNot much better in Canada: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/guilty-plea-ends-case-that-pitted-cellphone-privacy-rights-against-border-security-powers https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/guilty-plea-ends-case-t...
- refurb 8y agoYup! Not sure why Canada gets to slip under the radar on things like this. They are demanding access to devices as well.
- pera 8y agoAnd also Australia and the UK: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-08/if-a-border-agent-demands-access-to-your-digital-device/10350762 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-08/if-a-border-agent-dem... https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/25/traveler-who-refused-to-give-device-passwords-to-police-found-guilty-of-obstruction-in-uk-court/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/25/traveler-who-refused-to-gi... It seems to be mostly a Five Eyes thing.
- jerf 8y agoIt scares me the number of people who think that the US is in some uniquely bad place for some issue, not because of "whataboutism" but because of the blindness it can entail and skewed perceptions of all sides. No, it's not a dystopia in the US, but a wonderland paradise everywhere else. There's plenty of places that treat various people badly.
- pimmen 8y agoAgreed. I'm European and it astonishes me how a wall at the border is so divisive, with some even calling it un-American, and in the EU there are essentially no legal ways for refugees to enter at all (we've made it practically impossible to fly) and children die by the boat loads in the Mediterranean, yet we Europeans think we are in a position to judge the US. Astonishing is the word.
- pmoriarty 8y ago
- jsonne 8y agoOr New Zealand: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/10/02/new-zealands-digital-strip-searches-give-border-agents-your-device-passwords-or-risk-a-5000-fine/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/10/0...
- blunte 8y agoGiven their reported membership in the Five Eyes, I don't see NZ as a place to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
- falcor84 8y agoAlternatively, prefer to avoid bringing your own devices with you when you fly. Leave your laptop and smartphone at home, and rent temporary ones after you cross.
- Something1234 8y agoHow do you find a rented laptop trustworthy?
- coldtea 8y agoWhy wouldn't a rented laptop be trustworthy?
- freehunter 8y agoBecause it's someone else's hardware, someone else's software, and someone else's firmware.
- cyphar 8y agoTo be pedantic, unless you flashed coreboot it's not your own firmware and if you aren't using an open hardware laptop then it's not really your hardware either.
- OJFord 8y agoBut you can have a bit more trust in the supply chain to get to you than that it hasn't been tampered with afterwards.
- danjohn 8y agoAlthough it may not be morally ok, one could just buy a laptop for a conference etc, and then return it after a week if the store has a return policy. I've seen stores take back laptops no questions asked for up to 60 days. If you are in a pinch. If not you can just sell it (there or at home) and take the loss as a rental fee.
- 3487fm9so8g 8y ago> Muhh America sucks. I do fully agree with the sentiment that people who have such a low opinion of the United States should not come here. However, that low opinion is not deserved. > Going through customs is usually routine for me. So this is a rare an unusual problem. > I was eventually permitted to leave the customs area with my devices. Which amounted to a temporary inconvenience. > These so-called border searches are not random. And was potentially justified. While appreciate the desire to attribute malicious intent to people you're biased against ("my disapproval of the Trump administration"), the article makes no effort to consider whether there might have been such a valid justification for asking a few questions. Maybe the author engaged in such an analysis, but for whatever factors he may have considered we're not privy to them. But moreover... > surrounded by three armed agents wearing bullet proof vests. > If the government intended to scare me, they certainly succeeded. Ever since, I travel in fear. This is a shockingly unamerican sentiment to hear from someone who, in the same breath claims: > When I became a U.S. citizen I swore to defend the Constitution. I’m a proud U.S. citizen and I take my oath seriously. Then what about the second amendment? If you support and defend the fact that "a well regulated militia [is] necessary to the security of a free state... " then how is the sight of a gun so terrifying? I'm not sure what experience he has in his life, but seeing a gun is not a big deal. As the constitution says, their a basic and necessary element of free societies. While I appreciate that a 3-hour delay is substantial, so is international travel and it's in the context of refusing to answer reasonable questions. It used to take months, weeks, or at least days. The idea that this guy in particular should be able to enter on a moment's notice, without any delay, and no questions asked is a bit of a stretch. To say he should ALWAYS be able to do so, each and every time he tries to enter without ever experiencing a delay, that's unreasonable.
- GordonS 8y ago> This is a shockingly unamerican sentiment to hear So feeling fear when surrounded by 3 armed guards is "unamerican"? My questions are why were there 3 in the first place, and why were they armed? Surely that kind of "show of force" could only be justified in response to a credible threat?
- 8y ago
- mavhc 8y agoMaybe they're just trying to make flying so annoying people don't do it, to help with global warming. Just video conference, easier, faster, better for not drowning.
- Not_a_pizza 8y agoQuick reminder: Without a true Bill of Rights, your rights, as much you might think they are secure, are virtual at best.
- fwip 8y agoThe same is true with a Bill of Rights. The government does what the government wants. If you're lucky, later a different part of the government will apologize. A bill of rights may reduce the odds that those enumerated rights are denied to you, but it cannot prevent it.
- leesalminen 8y agoIn the past several years, I’ve entered 6 countries as a US citizen. Only Canada has demanded access to my phone.
- jobigoud 8y agoAnother anecdotal point, in the past few years I've entered the US a dozen times, China, SA, Australia, Canada and some European countries outside my native France, and I've never been asked to unlock my phone once. I always get the fingerprint treatment at LAX though.
- rak00n 8y agoGetting fingerprint is supposed to be a standard procedure.
- t0astbread 8y agoAre these kinda searches that common?
- jliptzin 8y agoI was asked to unlock my phone trying to get to Canada as a US citizen too.
- progfix 8y agoWhat are they even trying to find on your phone?
- tptacek 8y agoEvidence that you're coming to Canada to stay and perhaps work, rather than visit temporarily.
- leesalminen 8y agoInteresting. When they ask my occupation I say that I’m a small business owner in the software industry. Is that a high risk occupation for unauthorized work in Canada?
- golem14 8y agoI don’t think this so great for non us citizens working in the USA because they have to go in and out and can just as well be denied entry. For someone like that who made his life in the USA and has family here, going to conferences outside the USA is potentially much worse and riskier than say a German resident and citizen getting denied travel into the USA for a number of years.
- vkou 8y agoCould you give us a set of countries whose customs agencies cannot refuse entry to non-residents, for any reason whatsoever, including no reason? I have a feeling that is an empty set.
- khuey 8y agoUnder the terms of the UN Treaty there are actually certain non-residents that the US cannot refuse visas and entrance to.