12 ms·
Quick reminder: US citizens have an absolute right to reenter the country. Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry. Any threat, whether
by mikeash 8y ago
Quick reminder: US citizens have an absolute right to reenter the country. Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry. Any threat, whether implied or stated, that they will hold you until you unlock your device is not real. They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route, but never unlock your device based on the idea that it’s the only way to go free.
Non-citizens are in a totally different boat. You can be denied entry for any reason whatsoever. Tread carefully....
- gruez 8y ago>Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry What's the definition of "temporarily" in this case?
- jniedrauer 8y agoAt least 15 years[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saifullah_Paracha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saifullah_Paracha
- mikeash 8y agoNot a US citizen, so not relevant.
- wyldfire 8y agoParacha's detention might be unjust but it's only indirectly related to this thread. He is not a US citizen.
- Harvey-Specter 8y agoHe's not a US citizen.
- jefftk 8y agomikeash was talking about US citizens; Paracha is Pakistani.
- mikeash 8y agoI can’t find a definitive answer (and one may not exist until an appropriate court case happens) but from what I do find, it’s some hours.
- wyldfire 8y ago"Justice delayed is justice denied." It's unlikely that it could exceed 24 hours and if it exceeded a couple of hours you could get a preliminary injunction (unfortunately of course you'd need counsel to know about the detention in order to act on your behalf). As a practical matter, more senior officials at CBP should hopefully know about their limitations and if you request counsel and stay silent then they'd likely release you.
- shiado 8y agoI would like to know too. I thought Obama's NDAA allowed indefinite detentions?
- chrisseaton 8y ago> US citizens have an absolute right to reenter the country Going to a prison somewhere in the US is 'reentry' I suppose.
- mikeash 8y agoYes, if they actually find probable cause to charge you with a crime, then they’ll let you enter but arrest you and put you in jail. Refusing to unlock your devices does not qualify, though.
- Zak 8y agoYes, but the rule of law in the US is mostly intact, so refusing to provide information or actively facilitate a search will not have that result. Lying to the officer can.
- jancsika 8y agoOP was talking about being forced to unlock devices. Is there evidence of US citizens going to prison for the act of refusing to unlock a device at the border?
- rmdashrfstar 8y agoNo, none that has been presented.
- geofft 8y agoSure, but without a criminal charge there's the right of habeas corpus. (Provided you have someone who will get the legal process started for you, I guess.)
- musha68k 8y agoQuick reminder: Non US citizens only go to conferences outside the US. There is no excuse we should put up with this. Canada and EU are much better locations for this reason alone.
- throwaway91872 8y agoCanada is not exactly welcoming to visitor. Particularly visitors that may have a mark on their background check from any number of years ago. Good luck getting in at all -- its becoming a common mention in hip hop lyrics even.
- jfim 8y agoPretty much any country does this. Unless you're a citizen of that country, you have no right to enter it and should be on your best behavior at all times, and they can decline you for any reason they feel like, justified or not.
- throwaway91872 8y agoI've been all across the world. I've been turned away from Canada twice (every occasion) over some weed 15 years ago. No other country cares unless you are applying for a long term visa or something. I even tried applying for the right to visit and was turned down (again, over weed).
- wang_li 8y agoAmericans who have concealed carry permits on their person when entering Canada will have their vehicle searched with a fine toothed comb.
- village-idiot 8y agoThat’s actually pretty reasonable. I don’t think anyone reasonable thinks Canada doesn’t have the right to enforce their firearm laws at their border.
- maximilianroos 8y ago> They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route CBP do need reasonable suspicion to hold you belongings or do a forensic search of your computer (Cotterman 2013) - they can't just randomly take things on a whim. The longer they hold it, the higher standard required.
- blunte 8y agoLaws and precedent are one thing, but "law enforcement" behavior is another. You might indeed get your stuff back, but they can make it unreasonably difficult, expensive (in legal fees), or time consuming if they want.
- maximilianroos 8y agoYes. The courts will suppress any evidence that's not gathered legally, but aside from that, officers' qualified immunity protects them from all but the most obvious infringements
- geofft 8y agoDoes refusing to unlock your devices trigger a reasonable suspicion? (In Cotterman, it sounds like the Ninth Circuit said reasonable suspicion was required, but also decided on its own - despite it not being argued by the government - that an alert from a CBP database about Cotterman's previous conviction justified a search. Which seems reasonable to me, as a layperson, I thin.)
- maximilianroos 8y agoOfficers need articulable facts for reasonable suspicion. Not consenting to a search is explicitly not grounds for reasonable suspicion here or in any other context
- renholder 8y ago>Cotterman's previous conviction justified a search ...and there you have it: He's done something wrong in the past, so - of course - he must be doing something bad now - forever and always!
- wyldfire 8y ago> but never unlock your device based on the idea that it’s the only way to go free. Best to enter the customs zone with the phone powered off, your device's security is likely better in this state, less likely to be circumvented while you surrender it.
- metric10 8y agoGood advice! Things like mobile boarding passes and the "Mobile Passport" app encourage and train people to hand their devices over to TSA and CBP personnel. In that later case, unlocked and with an app CBP/DHS controls already installed (with a lengthy ToS no one ever reads).
- filoleg 8y agoI’ve been using mobile boarding passes exclusively for the past few years and it doesn’t even remotely work in the way you describe (within the US, at least; cannot comment on CBP). 1. There is no special app you need for mobile boarding passes. It has always been either a PDF or a PNG file emailed to you. 2. I was never asked to hand over my phone to TSA agents at any point. They just ask you to put your phone with the boarding pass QR code displayed over a QR scanner. At no point the phone leaves your hands.
- schrodinger 8y agoMobile Passport is different, and _does_ require a special app.
- tombrossman 8y agoOn a related note, car rental places now email me the contract and rental documents by default, I receive no paperwork unless I remember to ask. The problem didn't register with me right away (It was so similar to what hotels do when you travel, all paperless now) but the last time I returned the car I asked them what I was supposed to do if I was stopped for a traffic violation. "You can open the email from us on your phone and give it to the officer" they suggested. I recommend everyone ask for a printed contract instead. As an aside, on iOS, the airline apps I have used work like the Wallet app and are visible on the lock-screen, the device must be powered on but remains locked when you display your boarding pass, etc.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- bluedino 8y agoIsn't the device lock easily defeatable on the computer? Hold shift or some other key combination when you boot and it boots into the 'real' machine, the other OS is just a dummy with generic search history and data.
- mikeash 8y agoI would advise against this. It might work but there’s no guarantee, and by lying to customs you’ve transformed your situation from one where you might have to buy a new computer to one where you might be convicted of a crime.
- coldtea 8y ago>Any threat, whether implied or stated, that they will hold you until you unlock your device is not real Except the threat to put you on a "mess up with every time they fly" list.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rdiddly 8y agoI also wouldn't answer any questions. If you're being detained and questioned by law enforcement, you have a right to have an attorney present. And to be charged with a crime within a certain timeframe, for that matter. If there's none of that, hey by golly you must not be under arrest and this isn't a legal proceeding. Answer every question by reminding them you're a US citizen. Maybe repeat your social security number dramatically as if you're a POW in the hands of a foreign power. (Certainly you're in the hands of some traitors against the USA, so it's not a huge stretch.)
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- cyberfart 8y agoCan they deny entry to a non citizen and hold their stuff?
- microtherion 8y agoI don't think there's any country in the world that doesn't reserve the right to deny entry to non-citizens for any reason they choose.
- cyberfart 8y agoPerhaps I was unclear, I was asking if they can confiscate your stuff and send you back without it.
- microtherion 8y agoI'd think any such confiscation would be for a finite time only, but "finite" possibly encompassing a good portion of the useful life of an electronic device. The US can confiscate your kids and send you back without them. I doubt they'd draw the line at confiscating a phone.
- sneak 8y agoI am a US citizen. For many years I tried exercising this right while remaining silent. I’ve been kicked out of a border control point in northern Vermont in February in a snowstorm after a four hour interrogation. (They sent the bus without me.) I’ve been arrested and locked in a room for twelve hours with no food or water or medication. I’ve been endlessly harassed and interrogated on other entries even when not exercising 5th amendment rights to silence. In all cases they eventually let me go without charges. They have to let you enter, but they don’t have to do it quickly or humanely.
- justadudeama 8y agoWhat line of work are you in that makes this such a issue for you when you travel?
- sneak 8y agoMakes what such an issue?
- justboxing 8y ago> Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry Legal / Official Source please.
- mikeash 8y agoNguyen v. I.N.S. stated that citizens are entitled “to the absolute right to enter its borders....” Some more info and references to cases here: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/home.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/home.pdf
- sneak 8y agoOh, and for non-citizens: I entered the US with a partner that was canadian, we both refused to unlock our phones. She was denied entry, but they strip searched and physically groped both of our genitals before being released. Simply not wanting to enter the US was insufficient; the only way we could leave the building was by letting the cops handle our genitals. They will use every option available to them to punish you for disobeying their commands to unlock, even if you are not legally obligated to do so.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago> They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route, but never unlock your device based on the idea that it’s the only way to go free. Wonder if you can sue them after for your property back.