8 ms·

"So the rocket launch is planned for October, will the software be ready?" "Not sure, the software developer team doesn't like deadlines, they'll be finished w

by rb808 8y ago

"So the rocket launch is planned for October, will the software be ready?" "Not sure, the software developer team doesn't like deadlines, they'll be finished when they feel like it."

bostonvaulter2 8y ago
No, but the bootloader will be! We can just send up the final image once the satellite is in space.
- prewett 8y ago
  I think that's how NASA develops their longer-range probes, like Cassini and New Horizons. It's something like a six year journey to Saturn, so plenty of development time after the launch. But that bootloader had better be flawless!
NeoBasilisk 8y ago
Most of us are not writing space shuttle code (or any other aerospace code, considering all space shuttles have been retired).
- rb808 8y ago
  Changed to rocket. Most of us aren't writing code that will go to space, but most of us work with other parts of the business, and marketing, management, investors need agreed deadlines to coordinate with.
whatshisface 8y ago
What fraction of developers work on rockets versus A/B testing signup button colors?
- kingnothing 8y ago
  "So the marketing for our new product has to be purchased 3 months in advance to tie in for the TV ads, magazine ads, bus stop ads, and web buys. Not to mention we need to work with legal, and our CEO needs to talk to the board. When the devs be done?"
  - i_can_c_sharp 8y ago
    In 3-5 weeks (change to months for a bigger project). Don’t buy the ad until it’s in production. Use the 3 months to iron out tha bugs that will be found in production.
  - flukus 8y ago
    Is there some rule that the product has to be available for sale and advertised as soon as the code rolls off the production line? Why can't they begin scheduling these things when the code is 90%+ done? It's not going to rust or go stale while marketing gears up, having a completely different business unit driving you're release process is just a recipe for releasing buggy shit.
    - _AzMoo 8y ago
      If you're developing something novel and it's not deployed as it's completed you risk a competitor beating you to market. As well as this, the time between having a product or feature complete and ready for release equates to lost revenue. The ideal is to have all aspects of the project completed and ready for deployment (actual feature, supporting documentation, training materials, marketing campaigns and materials, etc.) at the same time to maximise possible revenue.
      - flukus 8y ago
        > If you're developing something novel and it's not deployed as it's completed you risk a competitor beating you to market. If you're competitor is imminently releasing a competing product then what you're working on isn't really novel. It would also be potentially patentable if it really was novel, which would grant you a monopoly on the space. > As well as this, the time between having a product or feature complete and ready for release equates to lost revenue. What's the lost revenue from releasing a buggy product? What's the lost revenue if your competitors are about to release a working one? What's the lost revenue from your developers jumping ship and all the related turn over costs? Some of those mistakes could sink the product/business entirely. > to maximise possible revenue. You agree that maximizing revenue at the expense of everything else isn't the goal don't you? If that's all that mattered then development would be outsourced to a third world country to save on expenses. But we've mostly learned no to do that because despite promising revenue gains they lead to several bad outcomes in the short and long term, pushing hard deadlines is no different.
dannersk 8y ago
Hmm, this doesn't seem like a good argument. Would you really rush that kind of thing if the developer team was not feeling good about the state of the software? Not always, but sometimes failure can be much worse than late.
marcosdumay 8y ago
"So, will the rocket control software be ready by October?" "Yes, it will. But we can't guarantee it will work correctly." Choose your poison.
freddie_mercury 8y ago
I'd make a related argument: When people are producers they don't like deadlines but as soon as they are consumers they demand them. Go build a house and you'll be constantly asking "when will it be done" and "whenever" isn't acceptable to you. Order something from Amazon and "it'll arrive whenever it arrives" isn't acceptable to you. Sell some stocks and ask your broker when you'll get the cash and "whenever, in a few days, not sure man, asking me about dates really takes me out of my Flow State" doesn't sound so great. We want deadlines. We want to know when our iPhone will be repaired, when our drycleaning will be done, when our children's schooling will be done for the day, when our plane will take off, when our car repair will be done, when the movie will start, and so on. I always find that these kinds of articles can too often come across as "deadlines for you, but not for me" if they don't really grapple with that reality and try to come up with explanations for the dichotomy.
- closeparen 8y ago
  If you understand a software task well enough to profile, optimize, and make correct predictions about it (the way UPS does with package delivery, or Lennar with exurb manufacturing), you understand it well enough to build a reusable solution. If you have good architecture and code reuse, the share of time that a team spends on well-understood tasks with accurate estimates should approach zero. Software scales - that's the point.
  - freddie_mercury 8y ago
    This response strikes me as a typical "software development is so special we have to live by different rules" response that developers all too frequently make. Software development is not as special we often make it out to be. Building a house is the same, yet we want our builder to tell us deadlines and get upset when he misses them. All infrastructure work is the same, yet we gleefully complain about how that subway/overpass/bridge/new airport is behind schedule. Medicine is the same, but we become (extremely!) upset when our doctor is 60 minutes late to our appointment and we have to wait. Teaching is the same, but we'd flip out if our teacher decided to keep kids an extra 20 minutes and we're waiting outside in our car to pick them up. Heck, just look at how upset people get about how long it takes George R.R. Martin or Patrick Rothfuss to write their next books! I guarantee many of the same people complaining about George R.R. Martin taking so long also complain about their boss asking for estimates and setting deadlines. And on and on and on.
vbuwivbiu 8y ago
"a^n + b^n = c^n, can you prove this by October ?"

by rb808 8y ago

"So the rocket launch is planned for October, will the software be ready?" "Not sure, the software developer team doesn't like deadlines, they'll be finished when they feel like it."

bostonvaulter2 8y ago

No, but the bootloader will be! We can just send up the final image once the satellite is in space.

prewett 8y ago
I think that's how NASA develops their longer-range probes, like Cassini and New Horizons. It's something like a six year journey to Saturn, so plenty of development time after the launch. But that bootloader had better be flawless!

NeoBasilisk 8y ago

Most of us are not writing space shuttle code (or any other aerospace code, considering all space shuttles have been retired).

rb808 8y ago
Changed to rocket. Most of us aren't writing code that will go to space, but most of us work with other parts of the business, and marketing, management, investors need agreed deadlines to coordinate with.

whatshisface 8y ago

What fraction of developers work on rockets versus A/B testing signup button colors?

kingnothing 8y ago
"So the marketing for our new product has to be purchased 3 months in advance to tie in for the TV ads, magazine ads, bus stop ads, and web buys. Not to mention we need to work with legal, and our CEO needs to talk to the board. When the devs be done?"
- i_can_c_sharp 8y ago
  In 3-5 weeks (change to months for a bigger project). Don’t buy the ad until it’s in production. Use the 3 months to iron out tha bugs that will be found in production.
- flukus 8y ago
  Is there some rule that the product has to be available for sale and advertised as soon as the code rolls off the production line? Why can't they begin scheduling these things when the code is 90%+ done? It's not going to rust or go stale while marketing gears up, having a completely different business unit driving you're release process is just a recipe for releasing buggy shit.
  - _AzMoo 8y ago
    If you're developing something novel and it's not deployed as it's completed you risk a competitor beating you to market. As well as this, the time between having a product or feature complete and ready for release equates to lost revenue. The ideal is to have all aspects of the project completed and ready for deployment (actual feature, supporting documentation, training materials, marketing campaigns and materials, etc.) at the same time to maximise possible revenue.
    - flukus 8y ago
      > If you're developing something novel and it's not deployed as it's completed you risk a competitor beating you to market. If you're competitor is imminently releasing a competing product then what you're working on isn't really novel. It would also be potentially patentable if it really was novel, which would grant you a monopoly on the space. > As well as this, the time between having a product or feature complete and ready for release equates to lost revenue. What's the lost revenue from releasing a buggy product? What's the lost revenue if your competitors are about to release a working one? What's the lost revenue from your developers jumping ship and all the related turn over costs? Some of those mistakes could sink the product/business entirely. > to maximise possible revenue. You agree that maximizing revenue at the expense of everything else isn't the goal don't you? If that's all that mattered then development would be outsourced to a third world country to save on expenses. But we've mostly learned no to do that because despite promising revenue gains they lead to several bad outcomes in the short and long term, pushing hard deadlines is no different.

dannersk 8y ago

Hmm, this doesn't seem like a good argument. Would you really rush that kind of thing if the developer team was not feeling good about the state of the software? Not always, but sometimes failure can be much worse than late.

marcosdumay 8y ago

"So, will the rocket control software be ready by October?" "Yes, it will. But we can't guarantee it will work correctly." Choose your poison.

freddie_mercury 8y ago

I'd make a related argument: When people are producers they don't like deadlines but as soon as they are consumers they demand them. Go build a house and you'll be constantly asking "when will it be done" and "whenever" isn't acceptable to you. Order something from Amazon and "it'll arrive whenever it arrives" isn't acceptable to you. Sell some stocks and ask your broker when you'll get the cash and "whenever, in a few days, not sure man, asking me about dates really takes me out of my Flow State" doesn't sound so great. We want deadlines. We want to know when our iPhone will be repaired, when our drycleaning will be done, when our children's schooling will be done for the day, when our plane will take off, when our car repair will be done, when the movie will start, and so on. I always find that these kinds of articles can too often come across as "deadlines for you, but not for me" if they don't really grapple with that reality and try to come up with explanations for the dichotomy.

closeparen 8y ago
If you understand a software task well enough to profile, optimize, and make correct predictions about it (the way UPS does with package delivery, or Lennar with exurb manufacturing), you understand it well enough to build a reusable solution. If you have good architecture and code reuse, the share of time that a team spends on well-understood tasks with accurate estimates should approach zero. Software scales - that's the point.
- freddie_mercury 8y ago
  This response strikes me as a typical "software development is so special we have to live by different rules" response that developers all too frequently make. Software development is not as special we often make it out to be. Building a house is the same, yet we want our builder to tell us deadlines and get upset when he misses them. All infrastructure work is the same, yet we gleefully complain about how that subway/overpass/bridge/new airport is behind schedule. Medicine is the same, but we become (extremely!) upset when our doctor is 60 minutes late to our appointment and we have to wait. Teaching is the same, but we'd flip out if our teacher decided to keep kids an extra 20 minutes and we're waiting outside in our car to pick them up. Heck, just look at how upset people get about how long it takes George R.R. Martin or Patrick Rothfuss to write their next books! I guarantee many of the same people complaining about George R.R. Martin taking so long also complain about their boss asking for estimates and setting deadlines. And on and on and on.

vbuwivbiu 8y ago

"a^n + b^n = c^n, can you prove this by October ?"