6 ms·

In this oil world, few hope to make some quick bucks while putting mankind's future at stake.

tiredyam 8y ago
eh sounds like all these people’s lives are significantly better. Also, it sounds like we aren’t shipping oil all the way across the world to be refined into gas nearly as much if we are getting directly from Texas. I could even imagine this being co2 net positive
- rosser 8y ago
  Shale oil is well-known to have significantly higher CO₂ costs than conventional crude. At least it's (generally) EROEI-positive, finally (though much of that is a result of burning the lower grade stuff to fractionally distill off the higher grades, which materially contributes to the CO₂ problem...).
whatshisface 8y ago
It's unfair to blame the drillers for producing oil and endangering humanity's future when, clearly, our entire society is in on it. Although you can surely blame them for being irresponsible and releasing fracking chemicals all over the place, that is on them.
- tw04 8y ago
  We are? What are "our" options? As far as I can tell my option is to lose my job entirely by not buying any gasoline at the pump in protest. Or write my local senator/congressman who has little control or care. It's not like there is a "shale oil" pump vs. a non shale oil pump at the local gas station. And asking the majority of the population to pick up and move close to their work (and then hope they have that job for eternity) doesn't really seem like a reasonable solution either. I think it's entirely reasonable to lay the blame at the feet of the people actually doing it. Just like when the CIA was torturing Iraqi's it was entirely reasonable to lay the blame for torture at their feet vs. copping out by saying "the whole country is to blame".
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    >What are "our" options? We choose to buy suburban homes with large gardens. We choose to buy gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs. We choose to fly thousands of miles for a week-long holiday. We vote for municipal governments that choose low-density zoning laws. We vote for politicians that promise cheap gas and disparage public transit. We all have some responsibility to bear for this issue.
  - CompelTechnic 8y ago
    In all likelihood, you're currently living in a way that environmentalists would describe as unsustainable, but still shaking your fist at society. This is hypocritical. There are two paths to avoid this hypocrisy: 1. Buy an electric car. Live in a smaller home. Consume fewer material goods. Set your heat cold in the winter and hot in the summer. Do what you can and actually put your money and lifestyle where your mouth is. The electric car will cost more than your gasoline powered car. You will be uncomfortable. Depending on your viewpoints about stoicism and hedonic adaptation, this won't actually be so bad. However, you will be actionably pulling society in the direction of living in a sustainable way. 2. Decide that you do not care about global warming. Either deny its existence, come to the conclusion that the net effects on planet earth will not be severe enough to be worth the cost to prevent it, or come to the conclusion that it is an unsolvable collective action problem. Shaking your fist is virtue signalling. Do something.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
      >1. Buy an electric car. Live in a smaller home. Better: move to a city, sell your car and buy bikes for your family. Live in a flat. Edit: as a comment to tw04's reply, do you really believe that the owners and banks of fracking companies choose to ignore changes in demand when investing in decades' long projects? If so, you should just fight capitalism because it would be the most stupid system of capital allocation one can think of.
      - bluGill 8y ago
        Many of us work in a suburban office park with ZERO places to live in walking distance, and no bus service. Even if you count bike distance, the office park really needs more workers than zoning codes all to live in a comfortable distance (don't forget the getting over/around hiways often adds significant distance to a commute)
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  Blame the customers then (but they're mere employees), or the employers, then (but they must feed their family too), the banks and shareholders who finance them maybe (but they all have families too), or the FED that makes this whole circus possible (but growth?!). It's like "First they came..." but in reverse. Who should we hold responsible? Aren't we all part of this dumb experiment? Edit: I spent a lot on a tiny flat just to live in a dense city so I can bike to work and heat my place as little as possible. I can't do much more to limit CO2 emissions actually, but I'm certain that those who make $180k to do haircuts because fracking are responsible one way or another.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    "Who should we hold responsible? Aren't we all part of this dumb experiment?" Yes. That's why blame is counterproductive when it comes to systemic injustices or unsustainable practices. Focus on incentives instead - why do the various actors do what they do? Is there a link that can be broken by creating an alternative or changing the payoffs to a certain action, and what's the cost of breaking that link?
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
      First we must blame ourselves. We won't go far if we avoid that.
      - nostrademons 8y ago
        I'd disagree with that too. Lots of recent psychological research has shown that blaming & shaming does not work - it makes people (including yourself) shrink away from the problem, because the experience of being blamed is uncomfortable and as much as our conscious mind may tell ourselves to "embrace discomfort because we deserve it", the unconscious mind recoils. A better perspective is to accept that this is how things are and that we have the ability to change it into something better, and then take that as a call to action to search for what that "something better" might be.
pm90 8y ago
Quick money has allured humanity for generations. Gold rushes, investment banking, SV startup boom... its in the nature of people to try and make a quick buck.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  >its in the nature of people to try and make a quick buck. Just say it's yours (or bank's, startups'...), cause it sure ain't mine. You should meet some people who try and do things differently. For instance, entrepreneurs who start cooperative, owned and controlled by employees and with no capital gains (we aren't hiding but the media sure don't like to speak about us).
drharby 8y ago
Are you saying Barbers are putting mankinds future at stake for taking advantage of a market opportunity? I dont understand, can you explain yourself?

eh sounds like all these people’s lives are significantly better. Also, it sounds like we aren’t shipping oil all the way across the world to be refined into gas nearly as much if we are getting directly from Texas. I could even imagine this being co2 net positive

rosser 8y ago
Shale oil is well-known to have significantly higher CO₂ costs than conventional crude. At least it's (generally) EROEI-positive, finally (though much of that is a result of burning the lower grade stuff to fractionally distill off the higher grades, which materially contributes to the CO₂ problem...).

whatshisface 8y ago

It's unfair to blame the drillers for producing oil and endangering humanity's future when, clearly, our entire society is in on it. Although you can surely blame them for being irresponsible and releasing fracking chemicals all over the place, that is on them.

tw04 8y ago
We are? What are "our" options? As far as I can tell my option is to lose my job entirely by not buying any gasoline at the pump in protest. Or write my local senator/congressman who has little control or care. It's not like there is a "shale oil" pump vs. a non shale oil pump at the local gas station. And asking the majority of the population to pick up and move close to their work (and then hope they have that job for eternity) doesn't really seem like a reasonable solution either. I think it's entirely reasonable to lay the blame at the feet of the people actually doing it. Just like when the CIA was torturing Iraqi's it was entirely reasonable to lay the blame for torture at their feet vs. copping out by saying "the whole country is to blame".
- jdietrich 8y ago
  >What are "our" options? We choose to buy suburban homes with large gardens. We choose to buy gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs. We choose to fly thousands of miles for a week-long holiday. We vote for municipal governments that choose low-density zoning laws. We vote for politicians that promise cheap gas and disparage public transit. We all have some responsibility to bear for this issue.
- CompelTechnic 8y ago
  In all likelihood, you're currently living in a way that environmentalists would describe as unsustainable, but still shaking your fist at society. This is hypocritical. There are two paths to avoid this hypocrisy: 1. Buy an electric car. Live in a smaller home. Consume fewer material goods. Set your heat cold in the winter and hot in the summer. Do what you can and actually put your money and lifestyle where your mouth is. The electric car will cost more than your gasoline powered car. You will be uncomfortable. Depending on your viewpoints about stoicism and hedonic adaptation, this won't actually be so bad. However, you will be actionably pulling society in the direction of living in a sustainable way. 2. Decide that you do not care about global warming. Either deny its existence, come to the conclusion that the net effects on planet earth will not be severe enough to be worth the cost to prevent it, or come to the conclusion that it is an unsolvable collective action problem. Shaking your fist is virtue signalling. Do something.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    >1. Buy an electric car. Live in a smaller home. Better: move to a city, sell your car and buy bikes for your family. Live in a flat. Edit: as a comment to tw04's reply, do you really believe that the owners and banks of fracking companies choose to ignore changes in demand when investing in decades' long projects? If so, you should just fight capitalism because it would be the most stupid system of capital allocation one can think of.
    - bluGill 8y ago
      Many of us work in a suburban office park with ZERO places to live in walking distance, and no bus service. Even if you count bike distance, the office park really needs more workers than zoning codes all to live in a comfortable distance (don't forget the getting over/around hiways often adds significant distance to a commute)
rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
Blame the customers then (but they're mere employees), or the employers, then (but they must feed their family too), the banks and shareholders who finance them maybe (but they all have families too), or the FED that makes this whole circus possible (but growth?!). It's like "First they came..." but in reverse. Who should we hold responsible? Aren't we all part of this dumb experiment? Edit: I spent a lot on a tiny flat just to live in a dense city so I can bike to work and heat my place as little as possible. I can't do much more to limit CO2 emissions actually, but I'm certain that those who make $180k to do haircuts because fracking are responsible one way or another.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  "Who should we hold responsible? Aren't we all part of this dumb experiment?" Yes. That's why blame is counterproductive when it comes to systemic injustices or unsustainable practices. Focus on incentives instead - why do the various actors do what they do? Is there a link that can be broken by creating an alternative or changing the payoffs to a certain action, and what's the cost of breaking that link?
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    First we must blame ourselves. We won't go far if we avoid that.
    - nostrademons 8y ago
      I'd disagree with that too. Lots of recent psychological research has shown that blaming & shaming does not work - it makes people (including yourself) shrink away from the problem, because the experience of being blamed is uncomfortable and as much as our conscious mind may tell ourselves to "embrace discomfort because we deserve it", the unconscious mind recoils. A better perspective is to accept that this is how things are and that we have the ability to change it into something better, and then take that as a call to action to search for what that "something better" might be.

pm90 8y ago

Quick money has allured humanity for generations. Gold rushes, investment banking, SV startup boom... its in the nature of people to try and make a quick buck.

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
>its in the nature of people to try and make a quick buck. Just say it's yours (or bank's, startups'...), cause it sure ain't mine. You should meet some people who try and do things differently. For instance, entrepreneurs who start cooperative, owned and controlled by employees and with no capital gains (we aren't hiding but the media sure don't like to speak about us).

drharby 8y ago

Are you saying Barbers are putting mankinds future at stake for taking advantage of a market opportunity? I dont understand, can you explain yourself?