7 ms·

I am on Klonopin and Remeron. My diagnosis is anxiety, but really it's insomnia. I had a horrible, multiple-year episode of insomnia that started in my early th

I am on Klonopin and Remeron. My diagnosis is anxiety, but really it's insomnia. I had a horrible, multiple-year episode of insomnia that started in my early thirties. For about three years I got maybe one night a week of decent sleep. I was mentally and emotionally out of it; I'm kind of surprised I still have a job after that. A few years in, I found a psychiatrist who was willing to experiment and we discovered that the two meds above helped tremendously with the insomnia. I was then getting a solid eight hours most nights. There were side effects but they were much better than suffering with the insomnia was. Now, after a decade, the insomnia seems to be completely gone. Knowing that I have medications available to me that can help me get to sleep is enough that I think I don't actually need the medications any more. So I'm very slowly going off of them. Klonopin first. There are, as far as I know, no guidelines for how to do this. I tried cold turkey, but the side effects from that were fairly severe. So I started tapering. I'm now down to half my original dose. If things go well, within four months I'll be off the Klonopin for good, and then I'll start on the Remeron. These medications are not easy to stop taking.

mmjaa 8y ago
>Knowing that I have medications available to me that can help me get to sleep is enough that I think I don't actually need the medications any more. Honest question: Have you ever considered that your insomnia was psychosomatic and, through your doctors involvement in for-profit sales of pharmaceuticals, socially re-inforced?
- GlenTheMachine 8y ago
  Most chronic insomnia is psychosomatic. The problem with calling it "psychosomatic" is that people who haven't experienced it think that means it isn't real. But it is. You can't just talk yourself out of psychosomatic illnesses. They're as real as any other kind. You need some sort of medical care to manage or overcome them, just as much as if you had a broken leg. In my case, I see my psychiatrist once a quarter for fifteen minutes. Klonopin and Remeron are two of the cheapest drugs there are. My meds cost me less than $40 a year. I don't think anyone is making a lot of money off of me. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or biofeedback, which are two alternatives that were presented to me, would have been far more expensive.
  - martinald 8y ago
    I dont mean to be alarmist but taking benzodiazepines for an extended time (anything more than 2 weeks is probably a bad idea, especially with strong ones such as clonazepam), is definitely not a great idea. There is a very prolonged withdrawal syndrome, with many not reporting feeling completely better after many years in cases of high dose long term usage. You may take the view that you can always take them, but circumstances change (your doctor may no longer be allowed/feel comfortable prescribing for a long time - this happened with opiods) or you may not be able to get access with them for other reasons. The drugs will most likely stop working or rapidly increase in side effects after very long term use, it's generally just a matter of time. I would strongly recommend you get a plan to taper if possible and look into alternatives. Many think the benzodiazepine withdrawal is as bad if not worse than opioid (plus it can be lethal).
    - mastox 8y ago
      I had no idea the impact of benzo's but my first thought after reading the OP and experiencing Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) myself, "Isn't that just a band-aid, not really treating the 'wound'". I guess I'm just agreeing with you from a philosophical point of view. For what's its worth for anyone (including OP) reading this, I found success in studying philosophy as a poor man's CBT especially Existentialism. I think an argument could be made that these two things are the same thing but represented slightly different language and with slightly different goals.
      - flycaliguy 8y ago
        Stoic philosophy has a lot of overlap with CBT. It basically re-opened those cbt books for me and kept me at it.
        mastox 8y ago
        Also true. And I've probably been heavily influenced by Stoicism as well, its hard to keep track where the lines are when there's so much overlap between the three.
theNJR 8y ago
Any idea what triggered the insomnia?
- magic_beans 8y ago
  This is the most important question here. I hope OP has been able to address the original cause of the insomnia, lest it happen again.
  - GlenTheMachine 8y ago
    Not fully, but I strongly suspect it had a lot to do with the building I work in. My building has no windows. My lab simulates space, so it is a big room that is painted black. Daylight Savings had just stopped, so I was getting an hour of sunlight driving in to work, no sunlight during the day, and leaving after it got dark. I think my circadian rhythms were completed screwed up. Once you have insomnia for a few weeks it tends to be self-reinforcing. I didn't get adequate medical care during the first few weeks, when it was acute, so it became chronic. I tried, but the doctor wrote me a half-strength prescription for Ambien, and that was all. It didn't work.
    - travisjungroth 8y ago
      Holy crap you were living in constant darkness. Of course you had sleep issues. Did you ever try light exposure?
      - GlenTheMachine 8y ago
        Yes, of course. I got a sunlight lamp and put it over my monitor. I actually went so far as sitting outside in the evening for an hour, every day. I also tried taking melatonin. But the thing with insomnia is that it is self-reinforcing. You get conditioned to lying in bed awake, and that's what your brain then expects to do when you go to bed. And then you get anxious about it, which makes it worse. Once you have it, removing the original cause doesn't solve the problem. In my defense, I worked under these conditions for five years before it became an issue.
QualityReboot 8y ago
Just so you know, because it sound like nobody told you... you really need to taper those drugs or the chance of seizure goes way up. It's not like other addictions, you can't just cold turkey benzos or alcohol if you've been using them daily for a long time. It can literally kill you, and you won't see it coming. There's various schedules on how to do it, here's a good starting point: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2017/1101/p606.html https://www.aafp.org/afp/2017/1101/p606.html My personal rule is to never be taking benzos for more than 3 days in a row, to avoid being in a dangerous withdrawal situation.
- GlenTheMachine 8y ago
  Indeed, nobody told me. I experienced the immediate effects of withdrawal when my stomach started tensing up for no good reason, and I started sweating. That was enough to convince me to stop with the cold withdrawal and start tapering. I did not know this could have been life threatening. That's... comforting...
  - iooi 8y ago
    Be very careful tapering off benzos, the withdrawals are more dangerous than that of heroin [1]. You should definitely get your doctor involved in this process. You might also want to read through this [2]. 8 months might not be enough time to taper off depending on the time and dosage you've been on. [1] https://qz.com/677980/opioids-arent-the-most-dangerous-drug-to-go-through-withdrawal-from/ https://qz.com/677980/opioids-arent-the-most-dangerous-drug-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_synd...
    - curious_fella_ 8y ago
      Heroin withdrawal, while extremely shitty, is generally not life-threatening.
    - GlenTheMachine 8y ago
      I've been on Klonopin for seven years. But I started out on the very lowest clinical dose, and for two months I tapered to 75% and for the last month I've been on 50%. In another month I hope to drop to 25%. So it will be at least six months, and as I said I started at a low dose. I feel great so far.
limeblack 8y ago
Check out http://survivingantidepressants.org http://survivingantidepressants.org I'm active on the site. Fair warning some people stop sleeping coming off of Remeron others are fine. Sometimes the withdrawal is multi month delayed.
mnm1 8y ago
Tapering is the only solution for kolonipin. Please check out https://www.benzo.org.uk/index.htm https://www.benzo.org.uk/index.htm It sounds like you're on the right path. It took me around 3-4 months also, but time varies from person to person. Stay strong. I did it and you can definitely do it! It's so worth it.
captainredbeard 8y ago
For the sleep, try wearing blue light blocking glasses all day until you are able to sleep reliably. It sounds ridiculous but I read a study in the Journal of Bipolar Disorder a few years back (can't find a link right now) about this. I've given a pair to a friend suffering from a multi-day manic phase (with zero sleep) and it stopped it dead in the tracks, within six hours in this case. It makes you look a bit dorky but it's better than not sleeping (or mania). The product used in the study (and the one that I've seen work) is: Uvex Skyper Blue Light Blocking Computer Glasses with SCT-Orange Lens (S1933X)
- potta_coffee 8y ago
  Thanks, you prompted me to buy some glasses and try this.
  - captainredbeard 8y ago
    They’re life changing!
- GlenTheMachine 8y ago
  I'm confused. My problem is not getting enough sunlight, and I was under the impression that blue light was what I needed. Why would blocking it help?
  - lesss365 8y ago
    Strain on the eyes and blue light, iirc, suppresses a hormone related to sleep. Been wearing a pair for the past two years after a coworker recommended them after I mentioned my eyes always feel super strained by the end of the day and have trouble sleeping. They really do make a huge difference. Before, my eyes were super heavy and aching by the end of the day, and now they feel as though only an hour of screen time has passed. Thing is if I take them off while working/looking at any screen without a blue light filter, they start aching within 10 minutes :/
- wetpaws 8y ago
  Why just not take melatonin which is cheap af?
captainredbeard 8y ago
This is a great resource for tapering off: https://willhall.net/comingoffmeds/ https://willhall.net/comingoffmeds/ I consider it the bible.

mmjaa 8y ago

>Knowing that I have medications available to me that can help me get to sleep is enough that I think I don't actually need the medications any more. Honest question: Have you ever considered that your insomnia was psychosomatic and, through your doctors involvement in for-profit sales of pharmaceuticals, socially re-inforced?

GlenTheMachine 8y ago
Most chronic insomnia is psychosomatic. The problem with calling it "psychosomatic" is that people who haven't experienced it think that means it isn't real. But it is. You can't just talk yourself out of psychosomatic illnesses. They're as real as any other kind. You need some sort of medical care to manage or overcome them, just as much as if you had a broken leg. In my case, I see my psychiatrist once a quarter for fifteen minutes. Klonopin and Remeron are two of the cheapest drugs there are. My meds cost me less than $40 a year. I don't think anyone is making a lot of money off of me. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or biofeedback, which are two alternatives that were presented to me, would have been far more expensive.
- martinald 8y ago
  I dont mean to be alarmist but taking benzodiazepines for an extended time (anything more than 2 weeks is probably a bad idea, especially with strong ones such as clonazepam), is definitely not a great idea. There is a very prolonged withdrawal syndrome, with many not reporting feeling completely better after many years in cases of high dose long term usage. You may take the view that you can always take them, but circumstances change (your doctor may no longer be allowed/feel comfortable prescribing for a long time - this happened with opiods) or you may not be able to get access with them for other reasons. The drugs will most likely stop working or rapidly increase in side effects after very long term use, it's generally just a matter of time. I would strongly recommend you get a plan to taper if possible and look into alternatives. Many think the benzodiazepine withdrawal is as bad if not worse than opioid (plus it can be lethal).
  - mastox 8y ago
    I had no idea the impact of benzo's but my first thought after reading the OP and experiencing Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) myself, "Isn't that just a band-aid, not really treating the 'wound'". I guess I'm just agreeing with you from a philosophical point of view. For what's its worth for anyone (including OP) reading this, I found success in studying philosophy as a poor man's CBT especially Existentialism. I think an argument could be made that these two things are the same thing but represented slightly different language and with slightly different goals.
    - flycaliguy 8y ago
      Stoic philosophy has a lot of overlap with CBT. It basically re-opened those cbt books for me and kept me at it.
      - mastox 8y ago
        Also true. And I've probably been heavily influenced by Stoicism as well, its hard to keep track where the lines are when there's so much overlap between the three.

theNJR 8y ago

Any idea what triggered the insomnia?

magic_beans 8y ago
This is the most important question here. I hope OP has been able to address the original cause of the insomnia, lest it happen again.
- GlenTheMachine 8y ago
  Not fully, but I strongly suspect it had a lot to do with the building I work in. My building has no windows. My lab simulates space, so it is a big room that is painted black. Daylight Savings had just stopped, so I was getting an hour of sunlight driving in to work, no sunlight during the day, and leaving after it got dark. I think my circadian rhythms were completed screwed up. Once you have insomnia for a few weeks it tends to be self-reinforcing. I didn't get adequate medical care during the first few weeks, when it was acute, so it became chronic. I tried, but the doctor wrote me a half-strength prescription for Ambien, and that was all. It didn't work.
  - travisjungroth 8y ago
    Holy crap you were living in constant darkness. Of course you had sleep issues. Did you ever try light exposure?
    - GlenTheMachine 8y ago
      Yes, of course. I got a sunlight lamp and put it over my monitor. I actually went so far as sitting outside in the evening for an hour, every day. I also tried taking melatonin. But the thing with insomnia is that it is self-reinforcing. You get conditioned to lying in bed awake, and that's what your brain then expects to do when you go to bed. And then you get anxious about it, which makes it worse. Once you have it, removing the original cause doesn't solve the problem. In my defense, I worked under these conditions for five years before it became an issue.

QualityReboot 8y ago

Just so you know, because it sound like nobody told you... you really need to taper those drugs or the chance of seizure goes way up. It's not like other addictions, you can't just cold turkey benzos or alcohol if you've been using them daily for a long time. It can literally kill you, and you won't see it coming. There's various schedules on how to do it, here's a good starting point: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2017/1101/p606.html https://www.aafp.org/afp/2017/1101/p606.html My personal rule is to never be taking benzos for more than 3 days in a row, to avoid being in a dangerous withdrawal situation.

GlenTheMachine 8y ago
Indeed, nobody told me. I experienced the immediate effects of withdrawal when my stomach started tensing up for no good reason, and I started sweating. That was enough to convince me to stop with the cold withdrawal and start tapering. I did not know this could have been life threatening. That's... comforting...
- iooi 8y ago
  Be very careful tapering off benzos, the withdrawals are more dangerous than that of heroin [1]. You should definitely get your doctor involved in this process. You might also want to read through this [2]. 8 months might not be enough time to taper off depending on the time and dosage you've been on. [1] https://qz.com/677980/opioids-arent-the-most-dangerous-drug-to-go-through-withdrawal-from/ https://qz.com/677980/opioids-arent-the-most-dangerous-drug-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_synd...
  - curious_fella_ 8y ago
    Heroin withdrawal, while extremely shitty, is generally not life-threatening.
  - GlenTheMachine 8y ago
    I've been on Klonopin for seven years. But I started out on the very lowest clinical dose, and for two months I tapered to 75% and for the last month I've been on 50%. In another month I hope to drop to 25%. So it will be at least six months, and as I said I started at a low dose. I feel great so far.

limeblack 8y ago

Check out http://survivingantidepressants.org http://survivingantidepressants.org I'm active on the site. Fair warning some people stop sleeping coming off of Remeron others are fine. Sometimes the withdrawal is multi month delayed.

mnm1 8y ago

Tapering is the only solution for kolonipin. Please check out https://www.benzo.org.uk/index.htm https://www.benzo.org.uk/index.htm It sounds like you're on the right path. It took me around 3-4 months also, but time varies from person to person. Stay strong. I did it and you can definitely do it! It's so worth it.

captainredbeard 8y ago

For the sleep, try wearing blue light blocking glasses all day until you are able to sleep reliably. It sounds ridiculous but I read a study in the Journal of Bipolar Disorder a few years back (can't find a link right now) about this. I've given a pair to a friend suffering from a multi-day manic phase (with zero sleep) and it stopped it dead in the tracks, within six hours in this case. It makes you look a bit dorky but it's better than not sleeping (or mania). The product used in the study (and the one that I've seen work) is: Uvex Skyper Blue Light Blocking Computer Glasses with SCT-Orange Lens (S1933X)

potta_coffee 8y ago
Thanks, you prompted me to buy some glasses and try this.
- captainredbeard 8y ago
  They’re life changing!
GlenTheMachine 8y ago
I'm confused. My problem is not getting enough sunlight, and I was under the impression that blue light was what I needed. Why would blocking it help?
- lesss365 8y ago
  Strain on the eyes and blue light, iirc, suppresses a hormone related to sleep. Been wearing a pair for the past two years after a coworker recommended them after I mentioned my eyes always feel super strained by the end of the day and have trouble sleeping. They really do make a huge difference. Before, my eyes were super heavy and aching by the end of the day, and now they feel as though only an hour of screen time has passed. Thing is if I take them off while working/looking at any screen without a blue light filter, they start aching within 10 minutes :/
wetpaws 8y ago
Why just not take melatonin which is cheap af?

captainredbeard 8y ago

This is a great resource for tapering off: https://willhall.net/comingoffmeds/ https://willhall.net/comingoffmeds/ I consider it the bible.