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It's nice to know what a competitive base salary is for an engineer but when negotiating an offer I think you really should be looking at Total Compensation. RS

It's nice to know what a competitive base salary is for an engineer but when negotiating an offer I think you really should be looking at Total Compensation. RSU, Stock Options, Bonuses all play a very significant role when looking at offers. Especially if you work at one of the large tech companies (Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc) the stock grants are a VERY large portion of your compensation.

jalgos_eminator 8y ago
You should, but it looks like triplebyte was explicitly ignoring that because it would add too many dimensions to the graph and those benefits are hard to value. Stock options are not a liquid asset, and their value can change wildly and unpredictably. Ask all those programmers around in 2001 how much their options were worth.
- djakjxnanjak 8y ago
  Very relevant for people working for startups, much less relevant for those working at public companies where the stock can be sold the day it vests. Standard vesting starts after a year cliff, but it’s common to get a large signing bonus which makes up for it. Plus some people are getting offers with no cliff. I worry that some really skilled developers may be looking at these stats and not realize what they are giving up by accepting a job with the average salaries reported here.
  - pageandrew 8y ago
    Unless you go to a FAANG you're basically going to be accepting compensation close to what's listed here. If you're at a FAANG and get those massive stock packages, then you can really start getting close to the $300k+ total comp packages that people talk about.
    - echevil 8y ago
      Later stage startups also have equity packages similar to FAANG based on their valuation.
    - yellowstuff 8y ago
      Hedge fund programming jobs in NYC pay a significant annual cash bonus, I believe 50-100% of base salary is standard. From what I can tell $250-300k is pretty standard total comp for senior software devs. I'm just a programmer, probably a hiring manager or recruiter would have a better sense of the market.
      - Grustaf 8y ago
        Do you happen to know how to get a programming job at a hedge fund? I have a finance background, ran a tiny algo fund and is currently doing Swift development at a FAANG company, would love to combina my passions!
        hermitdev 8y ago
        Networking and recruiters, mostly. I spent 9 years at a hedge fund in Chicago. I started a year out of college. That job, the reputation and that I lasted nearly a decade, and left of my own accord have opened numerous doors for me, and I only got the job because of networking (my best friend from college worked there and vouched for me, and he was there because a college friend of his sister worked there and vouched for him). Now that I'm "in", I can call up a handful of recruiters that specialize in finance to setup interviews inside of a week or so any time I want. Usually beginning of the year is the best time to interview (after theyve fired tje worst performers from the previous year). Recently, I was looking for a job after being let go in January. I had my first phone screen 3 business days after I lost my job. Accepted an offer after about 4 weeks without work. Actually accepted the lower base/higher bonus potential that also had better work/life balance and easier commute. But, like I said: networking and recruiters. The hedge fund world is a very incestuous industry. Once you get in, lots of opportunities to move around as you meet people, they leave for new shops, etc. Education also doesnt much matter except to open the first door. I.e. a degree from MIT, CMU, Harvard or Stanford will open more doors without a network connection. I got in with dual BS degrees in engineering from a well respected, but not top tier tech school, with a referral from an employee. While there worked with some very talented people, few of which had degrees in CS. Worked with physicists, philosophers, mathematicians and English majors - all in a software development capacity. I'm sure there were other disciplines, but they escape me.
    - umeshunni 8y ago
      Given that FAANG (+Microsoft) employ close to quarter of a million software engineers and probably represent 50%+ of hiring in a given year, it seems weird to ignore those.
      - malvosenior 8y ago
        250k engineers at FAANG sounds really high. Do you have a source for those numbers?
        adtac 8y ago
        250k is really pushing it. I remember reading a Google earnings report that said they had 90k employees in total. Assuming Amazon/Microsoft to be larger and assuming Netflix to be smaller, we can take Google to be the average. Of that, even if 50% was engineering, we'd only have 250k FAANG engineers worldwide. In the US, I'd guesstimate ~100k.
        thedufer 8y ago
        Taking Google as the average is throwing off your numbers by an incredible amount. Amazon alone has more employees (around 540k as of the most recent reporting I can find) than you gave the entire group. Microsoft and Apple each account for more than Google as well.
        adtac 8y ago
        Does the Amazon number include people working in logistics, delivery, and all that? I suspect that is huge portion of that number. Their engineering force is larger than Google's but not by much, I think (60-70k at best).
        thedufer 8y ago
        I wouldn't expect it includes those positions, as warehouse operations/logistics seems to be contracted out to other companies. Not sure, though.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - xfitm3 8y ago
      I wouldn’t jump to conclusions. My company pays FAANG total comp in cash. Private company.
      - pageandrew 8y ago
        what industry, if you don't mind me asking?
- pageandrew 8y ago
  At large, public companies, the stock options are basically as good as cash.
  - thedufer 8y ago
    That would be stock, not stock options.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- BonesJustice 8y ago
  In NYC, and in the financial sector in particular, total total compensation often includes cash bonuses, while stock components are less common compared to S.V. Without insight into total compensation, these numbers are only minimally useful.
  - Redoubts 8y ago
    Agreed. This is leaving 50% of total comp out of the equation. -e- not to mention, it's the portion that varies the most with experience and internal performance.
- davidjnelson 8y ago
  Rsu’s vest monthly at many top companies.
- jorblumesea 8y ago
  Not sure about others but I and many of my coworkers sell RSUs immediately. Many companies offer RSUs, not options, which have guaranteed value. It's riskier than cash but definitely real compensation and not the monopoly money that options end up becoming.
- galazzah 8y ago
  Stocks are a major part of compensation for tech companies. Looking at just salary is an incomplete picture and also isn't fair for job-seekers. Fwiw this page has compensation data with break down by RSU, bonus, etc: https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html
  - fatnoah 8y ago
    Very true. I work at a non-FAANG, non-West Coast company and my initial job offer was 55/45 cash to stock ratio. Due to stock appreciation, that's changed to 45/55 cash to stock. Including only base compensation makes no sense. My current base salary is exactly the same as it was at my last startup, but my income has more than doubled.
echevil 8y ago
That would be a lot more interesting but it's also super hard to compare equity for public companies and different stages of startups. It probably makes better sense to split the companies into different categories and then do the comparison in the same category
- beneichler 8y ago
  (this is why we did it this way)
- tantalor 8y ago
  That's easy: equity in public companies is worth $something, equity in private companies is worth $nothing.
dmode 8y ago
Agree with this. To get any insight on what actual compensation looks like, one option can be to add a filter by publicly traded companies and add equity value to those.
badfrog 8y ago
Agreed. After about the first 4 years of my career, base salary was a minority of my TC.
freyir 8y ago
If I'm being cynical, TripleByte left this out on purpose. From what I've heard, they're mainly linking developers up with startup roles that don't pay much more than this (except perhaps in monopoly-money equity). Of course, you'd be better off going to FANG or a (soon-to-IPO) unicorn where you'd make double these amounts with RSUs factored in. But if you can get in there, you probably don't need to go through TripleByte. Then again, TripleByte also created https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html so maybe I am just being cynical.
- scarface74 8y ago
  But even $250K in total comp wouldn’t allow my family to live the lifestyle that we can live in many major metropolitan areas in the US that have a much lower cost of living where just your commodity full stack developer with a few years of experience can make $135K - $160K.
  - freyir 8y ago
    Wouldn't it? What major metropolitan areas are you talking about specifically? $250K is FANG compensation for an engineer with a few years of experience. According to NerdWallet cost of living calculator, equivalents are: Manhattan: $314K Los Angeles: $191K Boston: $196K Chicago: $157K Miami: $152K Denver: $149K Philadelphia: $146K Minneapolis: $139K Atlanta: $134K Des Moines: $117K So $250K in San Francisco should afford similar lifestyle as in other major cities paying $135K-$160K. But a senior-level position in FANG should be closer to $350K and above. I think that becomes much harder to match as a commodity developer outside the Bay Area (it'd be $205K in Philly, for instance). And even if you did match it, and you're able to sock away X% of your income a year in both cities, the FANG salary leaves you with many more dollars in your bank account in a few years. You could always leave the Bay Area at some point, and spend those dollars in a low CoL area. I'm not saying it's worth it. The Bay Area has a lot of downsides. San Francisco has become a crime-ridden cess pool in recent years. Commutes are horrendous if you don't live near work. And many tech companies in the Bay Area pay much less than FANG compensation (and I know from experience), which really makes it hard to stomach. But from a purely financial standpoint, it seems like the FANG developers are doing pretty well.

jalgos_eminator 8y ago

You should, but it looks like triplebyte was explicitly ignoring that because it would add too many dimensions to the graph and those benefits are hard to value. Stock options are not a liquid asset, and their value can change wildly and unpredictably. Ask all those programmers around in 2001 how much their options were worth.

djakjxnanjak 8y ago
Very relevant for people working for startups, much less relevant for those working at public companies where the stock can be sold the day it vests. Standard vesting starts after a year cliff, but it’s common to get a large signing bonus which makes up for it. Plus some people are getting offers with no cliff. I worry that some really skilled developers may be looking at these stats and not realize what they are giving up by accepting a job with the average salaries reported here.
- pageandrew 8y ago
  Unless you go to a FAANG you're basically going to be accepting compensation close to what's listed here. If you're at a FAANG and get those massive stock packages, then you can really start getting close to the $300k+ total comp packages that people talk about.
  - echevil 8y ago
    Later stage startups also have equity packages similar to FAANG based on their valuation.
  - yellowstuff 8y ago
    Hedge fund programming jobs in NYC pay a significant annual cash bonus, I believe 50-100% of base salary is standard. From what I can tell $250-300k is pretty standard total comp for senior software devs. I'm just a programmer, probably a hiring manager or recruiter would have a better sense of the market.
    - Grustaf 8y ago
      Do you happen to know how to get a programming job at a hedge fund? I have a finance background, ran a tiny algo fund and is currently doing Swift development at a FAANG company, would love to combina my passions!
      - hermitdev 8y ago
        Networking and recruiters, mostly. I spent 9 years at a hedge fund in Chicago. I started a year out of college. That job, the reputation and that I lasted nearly a decade, and left of my own accord have opened numerous doors for me, and I only got the job because of networking (my best friend from college worked there and vouched for me, and he was there because a college friend of his sister worked there and vouched for him). Now that I'm "in", I can call up a handful of recruiters that specialize in finance to setup interviews inside of a week or so any time I want. Usually beginning of the year is the best time to interview (after theyve fired tje worst performers from the previous year). Recently, I was looking for a job after being let go in January. I had my first phone screen 3 business days after I lost my job. Accepted an offer after about 4 weeks without work. Actually accepted the lower base/higher bonus potential that also had better work/life balance and easier commute. But, like I said: networking and recruiters. The hedge fund world is a very incestuous industry. Once you get in, lots of opportunities to move around as you meet people, they leave for new shops, etc. Education also doesnt much matter except to open the first door. I.e. a degree from MIT, CMU, Harvard or Stanford will open more doors without a network connection. I got in with dual BS degrees in engineering from a well respected, but not top tier tech school, with a referral from an employee. While there worked with some very talented people, few of which had degrees in CS. Worked with physicists, philosophers, mathematicians and English majors - all in a software development capacity. I'm sure there were other disciplines, but they escape me.
  - umeshunni 8y ago
    Given that FAANG (+Microsoft) employ close to quarter of a million software engineers and probably represent 50%+ of hiring in a given year, it seems weird to ignore those.
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      250k engineers at FAANG sounds really high. Do you have a source for those numbers?
      - adtac 8y ago
        250k is really pushing it. I remember reading a Google earnings report that said they had 90k employees in total. Assuming Amazon/Microsoft to be larger and assuming Netflix to be smaller, we can take Google to be the average. Of that, even if 50% was engineering, we'd only have 250k FAANG engineers worldwide. In the US, I'd guesstimate ~100k.
        thedufer 8y ago
        Taking Google as the average is throwing off your numbers by an incredible amount. Amazon alone has more employees (around 540k as of the most recent reporting I can find) than you gave the entire group. Microsoft and Apple each account for more than Google as well.
        adtac 8y ago
        Does the Amazon number include people working in logistics, delivery, and all that? I suspect that is huge portion of that number. Their engineering force is larger than Google's but not by much, I think (60-70k at best).
        thedufer 8y ago
        I wouldn't expect it includes those positions, as warehouse operations/logistics seems to be contracted out to other companies. Not sure, though.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - xfitm3 8y ago
    I wouldn’t jump to conclusions. My company pays FAANG total comp in cash. Private company.
    - pageandrew 8y ago
      what industry, if you don't mind me asking?
pageandrew 8y ago
At large, public companies, the stock options are basically as good as cash.
- thedufer 8y ago
  That would be stock, not stock options.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
BonesJustice 8y ago
In NYC, and in the financial sector in particular, total total compensation often includes cash bonuses, while stock components are less common compared to S.V. Without insight into total compensation, these numbers are only minimally useful.
- Redoubts 8y ago
  Agreed. This is leaving 50% of total comp out of the equation. -e- not to mention, it's the portion that varies the most with experience and internal performance.
davidjnelson 8y ago
Rsu’s vest monthly at many top companies.
jorblumesea 8y ago
Not sure about others but I and many of my coworkers sell RSUs immediately. Many companies offer RSUs, not options, which have guaranteed value. It's riskier than cash but definitely real compensation and not the monopoly money that options end up becoming.
galazzah 8y ago
Stocks are a major part of compensation for tech companies. Looking at just salary is an incomplete picture and also isn't fair for job-seekers. Fwiw this page has compensation data with break down by RSU, bonus, etc: https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html
- fatnoah 8y ago
  Very true. I work at a non-FAANG, non-West Coast company and my initial job offer was 55/45 cash to stock ratio. Due to stock appreciation, that's changed to 45/55 cash to stock. Including only base compensation makes no sense. My current base salary is exactly the same as it was at my last startup, but my income has more than doubled.

echevil 8y ago

That would be a lot more interesting but it's also super hard to compare equity for public companies and different stages of startups. It probably makes better sense to split the companies into different categories and then do the comparison in the same category

beneichler 8y ago
(this is why we did it this way)
tantalor 8y ago
That's easy: equity in public companies is worth $something, equity in private companies is worth $nothing.

dmode 8y ago

Agree with this. To get any insight on what actual compensation looks like, one option can be to add a filter by publicly traded companies and add equity value to those.

badfrog 8y ago

Agreed. After about the first 4 years of my career, base salary was a minority of my TC.

freyir 8y ago

If I'm being cynical, TripleByte left this out on purpose. From what I've heard, they're mainly linking developers up with startup roles that don't pay much more than this (except perhaps in monopoly-money equity). Of course, you'd be better off going to FANG or a (soon-to-IPO) unicorn where you'd make double these amounts with RSUs factored in. But if you can get in there, you probably don't need to go through TripleByte. Then again, TripleByte also created https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html so maybe I am just being cynical.

scarface74 8y ago
But even $250K in total comp wouldn’t allow my family to live the lifestyle that we can live in many major metropolitan areas in the US that have a much lower cost of living where just your commodity full stack developer with a few years of experience can make $135K - $160K.
- freyir 8y ago
  Wouldn't it? What major metropolitan areas are you talking about specifically? $250K is FANG compensation for an engineer with a few years of experience. According to NerdWallet cost of living calculator, equivalents are: Manhattan: $314K Los Angeles: $191K Boston: $196K Chicago: $157K Miami: $152K Denver: $149K Philadelphia: $146K Minneapolis: $139K Atlanta: $134K Des Moines: $117K So $250K in San Francisco should afford similar lifestyle as in other major cities paying $135K-$160K. But a senior-level position in FANG should be closer to $350K and above. I think that becomes much harder to match as a commodity developer outside the Bay Area (it'd be $205K in Philly, for instance). And even if you did match it, and you're able to sock away X% of your income a year in both cities, the FANG salary leaves you with many more dollars in your bank account in a few years. You could always leave the Bay Area at some point, and spend those dollars in a low CoL area. I'm not saying it's worth it. The Bay Area has a lot of downsides. San Francisco has become a crime-ridden cess pool in recent years. Commutes are horrendous if you don't live near work. And many tech companies in the Bay Area pay much less than FANG compensation (and I know from experience), which really makes it hard to stomach. But from a purely financial standpoint, it seems like the FANG developers are doing pretty well.