7 ms·

Right now I'm struggling with whether or not to leave. I'm currently at a well-known company, and I'm uncharacteristically happy because my WLB is the best it's

by steven2012 8y ago

Right now I'm struggling with whether or not to leave. I'm currently at a well-known company, and I'm uncharacteristically happy because my WLB is the best it's been in my career. However, I'm getting a bit bored and I also know I could make at least $50,000 a year more if I leave. Hell, even the new engineers joining my company at the same level are making more than I am. But the culture and pay at my company is just good enough such that staying isn't a horrible decision. And I don't want to start studying dynamic programming again for my interviews (I've never used it except in interview environments, so I keep forgetting and losing the ability to quickly answer questions). So yes, I could make a nice amount more (plus large sign on bonus) but WLB is good enough to keep me, at least for another year. I pick up my kids every day at school and I love it, it's worth the money for now.

bmdavi3 8y ago
What if you went to your manager, or whoever you feel is the right person, asked if you could speak one on one, and said... "I really love working at this company. The work is interesting, I love the people, the culture, <one more legitimate pro goes here>. But I also know I could be making X if I went elsewhere. I love the work I'm doing, and I want to keep doing it here, but I also don't want to be leaving money on the table. What can we do?" This phrasing, pretty much verbatim, has worked really well for me in the past.
- readingnews 8y ago
  I wish I worked at your firm. I once worked at a place and saved them millions in one year. At the yearly review, they said "well, that was some good work". That was the entire review. When I said "how about giving me an extra 1k a year (a bit less than others who had been there for a while were getting) I was told we had no extra cash. Well... wow, I just saved you like 1.5 million dollars. I am not asking for that, even spread out over 20 years I am asking for 20k. I have been reading HN for years. I have no idea how you people have such nice jobs...
  - naasking 8y ago
    I think it's standard in this industry that you only advance by moving to another company. You can even move back after awhile and they'll suddenly be able to afford you at a much higher rate.
    - moftz 8y ago
      It seems like there is all the money in the world to hire new people but almost nothing for anything other than a cost of living raise.
  - bmdavi3 8y ago
    Thanks, that's a perspective I never got. Shows how lucky I've been at the places I've worked. (Or perhaps, how underpaid I was at the time!) I should also mention that before these conversations, I had also been interviewing with a few different companies and gotten offers, so I knew those numbers were real and I really, truly, was ready to leave if they said no. But I genuinely wanted to keep working there and be making the salary I knew I could get elsewhere, and it worked out.
    - cgriswald 8y ago
      Hey. I don’t know you so take this for what it’s worth. But you asked for less than 0.01% of what you saved the company. Every single one of the people who decided you don’t deserve an extra 1K earned more than that because of what you did, either through salary, bonuses, or stock price increases. It’s possible you signaled that you don’t think you’re worth much by asking for as little as you did. Whatever it is, they believe (right or wrong) that you’ll continue to earn them money even if they don’t give you an increase. Don’t let them believe that even if you have to leave to do it.
    - user5994461 8y ago
      To add a third perspective where you're both wrong and unlucky. People on HN do better jobs because many live in the major tech cities, where there are more and better jobs. In big part linked to the big companies and the high cost of living. In most cases of raises, the employee could have got much better by moving to somewhere else. It's easier to give a few percent raise per year or one time than it is to match the 50-100% raise that high performer could get. If you change jobs often enough, you will eventually end up in a good company with a good pay, where you can stay.
- alain94040 8y ago
  This is the correct approach. There is a very simple reason your employer doesn't give big raises to existing employees: they know that a year ago, you were happy with your salary. Why would you want a 30% raise today, no matter what the outside market says? You were fine last month, what changed between you and the employer? Nothing. Of course, long term, if the market goes up a lot, people will be underpaid and eventually leave. If the market moves up, do use the parent's phrasing. Don't interview (too aggressive). Just state the fact that the market has moved and you want to stay.
  - snovv_crash 8y ago
    A year ago I had 1 year of experience with the company's tech stack, product portfolio and clients. Now I have 2 years of experience. If that isn't worth an extra 30% in value to the company, I'd rather provide that value where it's appreciated. Sure, after a couple years there are definitely diminishing returns, but the company (mistakenly, IMO) thinking they can get the same value from a fresh hire as from someone who's been there for a while already is what has set up this whole culture in the first place.
- duiker101 8y ago
  I can attest the same worked for me.
- inertiatic 8y ago
  I did this a couple of weeks ago personally, and now I'm looking for a new job. Theoretically it should work, as you're stating your intent to leave. In practice, employers will try and call your bluff.
  - wsy 8y ago
    The funny thing is, you really need to be willing to leave. HR and management can sense that. If it is only meant as bluff, it won't work.
- NeekGerd 8y ago
  I was in this exact situation. The WLB was awesome, good paycheck, good job, really good teammates. But that feeling of knowing you could do way more just by changing job is maddening. But I had no recognition in my work which was really the worst part actually, for instance, over the course of a year, I increased the team efficiency by 2500%, working on the build/deploy time and feedback loop. They just told me that they didn't care about tooling, so it couldn't play in my favor for a promotion. I deserved a raise and a promotion, I complained, during one on one(s), like 10s of them, on the course of a full year. They just didn't care. Basically what they told me, over and over, is that they were already paying the most in the area. I finally left, for a 40% raise and a job that is way more recognised and enjoyable.
xiaodai 8y ago
Why don't you just ask for a raise if new people are making more than you?
readingnews 8y ago
Saying things like "I could make 50k more at blah" seems to be taken so lightly these days. I would party/panic/freak out like I won the lotto if you told me I could make 50k more somewhere else. 50k... do you have any idea what that does to your future earnings? Your 401k/retirement? Hell, even if you live the same as now, sticking 25K in the bank every year is worth a whole heaping spoonful of whatever hell they could possibly throw at you in the new position... but it seems almost daily I read about someone or hear about someone who says "eh, Ill pass on that 20/50/75/100k increase in salary, I'm not into "money"..." I suppose all of those people already have their million in the bank for retirement... or are independently wealthy. Where do all of those people come from?
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  You’re not living the same lifestyle. Take a few international trips every year or live in or near a tier 1 city, or pay for a nice private school for the kids. Dinner and drinks out at non-fancy places is easy $100/person in a big city, vacations are $2k+ per person, private schools are $20k+ easy.
- hopler 8y ago
  The money isn't that great if you are miserable and your kids spend it after your funeral
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    That will happen to your money after your funeral regardless. Not like you have any more use for it yourself.
    - hopler 8y ago
      Not if you have lower income and a job that makes you happier, which was the question up above.
- war1025 8y ago
  The Mexican fisherman story [1] is what it comes down to for me. You can work a little, play a little, and generally have a good time with life and get by (Mexican fisherman), or you can start a business, work long hours, build a fleet of boats that makes a ton of money, and then sell it all someday when you retire, at which point you can work a little, play a little, and generally have a good time. (American businessman). For me, I make enough to get by and then some. Yes I could work harder, but life is pretty good this way. [1] https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/ https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma...
neogodless 8y ago
I didn't see the WLB acronym in the article. Something like "whole-life benefits?" ETA: Just remembered "work-life balance." Gotcha!
- Ma8ee 8y ago
  I really wish people could stop using so many acronyms in general. Even though it usually is possible to guess, or in worst case google, the meaning, it always slow me down. I didn’t immediately understand WLB and I don’t remember seeing ETA meaning anything else that Estimated Time of Arrival before. It just doesn’t take that long to write out the whole words.
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago
    Maybe we should use the Civil Service style and write out in full the first instance on an acronym.
  - neogodless 8y ago
    Oh crap, the irony. As you probably figured out, ETA => "edited to add."
war1025 8y ago
I was in a very similar situation at the end of last year. Young kids and a work life balance that couldn't be beat. Had a couple expenses pop up that aggravated my irritation at being underpaid to the point that I looked for a different job. Calculated out how much I thought I'd need to offset the work-life balance bit, and went out and got an offer for that amount. Actually accepted the offer but my employer said they'd match that offer, which was a much better outcome for me given the work-life balance part. I figure if it doesn't end up working out, the worst case scenario is I'll feel comfortable asking a higher salary next time I am on the job hunt. For now I'm living in the best of both worlds.
- lelima 8y ago
  Thanks for Sharing your story, now my question is, how to ask for a raise? -just, I want a raise will do?
  - war1025 8y ago
    I basically said, "Hey, I got this offer that is 50% more than what you're paying me, and I plan to take it." At that point I won whichever way things went down.
BenMorganIO 8y ago
I'd recommend a side project and see if you can start your own business. Sounds like a good time.

bmdavi3 8y ago

What if you went to your manager, or whoever you feel is the right person, asked if you could speak one on one, and said... "I really love working at this company. The work is interesting, I love the people, the culture, <one more legitimate pro goes here>. But I also know I could be making X if I went elsewhere. I love the work I'm doing, and I want to keep doing it here, but I also don't want to be leaving money on the table. What can we do?" This phrasing, pretty much verbatim, has worked really well for me in the past.

readingnews 8y ago
I wish I worked at your firm. I once worked at a place and saved them millions in one year. At the yearly review, they said "well, that was some good work". That was the entire review. When I said "how about giving me an extra 1k a year (a bit less than others who had been there for a while were getting) I was told we had no extra cash. Well... wow, I just saved you like 1.5 million dollars. I am not asking for that, even spread out over 20 years I am asking for 20k. I have been reading HN for years. I have no idea how you people have such nice jobs...
- naasking 8y ago
  I think it's standard in this industry that you only advance by moving to another company. You can even move back after awhile and they'll suddenly be able to afford you at a much higher rate.
  - moftz 8y ago
    It seems like there is all the money in the world to hire new people but almost nothing for anything other than a cost of living raise.
- bmdavi3 8y ago
  Thanks, that's a perspective I never got. Shows how lucky I've been at the places I've worked. (Or perhaps, how underpaid I was at the time!) I should also mention that before these conversations, I had also been interviewing with a few different companies and gotten offers, so I knew those numbers were real and I really, truly, was ready to leave if they said no. But I genuinely wanted to keep working there and be making the salary I knew I could get elsewhere, and it worked out.
  - cgriswald 8y ago
    Hey. I don’t know you so take this for what it’s worth. But you asked for less than 0.01% of what you saved the company. Every single one of the people who decided you don’t deserve an extra 1K earned more than that because of what you did, either through salary, bonuses, or stock price increases. It’s possible you signaled that you don’t think you’re worth much by asking for as little as you did. Whatever it is, they believe (right or wrong) that you’ll continue to earn them money even if they don’t give you an increase. Don’t let them believe that even if you have to leave to do it.
  - user5994461 8y ago
    To add a third perspective where you're both wrong and unlucky. People on HN do better jobs because many live in the major tech cities, where there are more and better jobs. In big part linked to the big companies and the high cost of living. In most cases of raises, the employee could have got much better by moving to somewhere else. It's easier to give a few percent raise per year or one time than it is to match the 50-100% raise that high performer could get. If you change jobs often enough, you will eventually end up in a good company with a good pay, where you can stay.
alain94040 8y ago
This is the correct approach. There is a very simple reason your employer doesn't give big raises to existing employees: they know that a year ago, you were happy with your salary. Why would you want a 30% raise today, no matter what the outside market says? You were fine last month, what changed between you and the employer? Nothing. Of course, long term, if the market goes up a lot, people will be underpaid and eventually leave. If the market moves up, do use the parent's phrasing. Don't interview (too aggressive). Just state the fact that the market has moved and you want to stay.
- snovv_crash 8y ago
  A year ago I had 1 year of experience with the company's tech stack, product portfolio and clients. Now I have 2 years of experience. If that isn't worth an extra 30% in value to the company, I'd rather provide that value where it's appreciated. Sure, after a couple years there are definitely diminishing returns, but the company (mistakenly, IMO) thinking they can get the same value from a fresh hire as from someone who's been there for a while already is what has set up this whole culture in the first place.
duiker101 8y ago
I can attest the same worked for me.
inertiatic 8y ago
I did this a couple of weeks ago personally, and now I'm looking for a new job. Theoretically it should work, as you're stating your intent to leave. In practice, employers will try and call your bluff.
- wsy 8y ago
  The funny thing is, you really need to be willing to leave. HR and management can sense that. If it is only meant as bluff, it won't work.
NeekGerd 8y ago
I was in this exact situation. The WLB was awesome, good paycheck, good job, really good teammates. But that feeling of knowing you could do way more just by changing job is maddening. But I had no recognition in my work which was really the worst part actually, for instance, over the course of a year, I increased the team efficiency by 2500%, working on the build/deploy time and feedback loop. They just told me that they didn't care about tooling, so it couldn't play in my favor for a promotion. I deserved a raise and a promotion, I complained, during one on one(s), like 10s of them, on the course of a full year. They just didn't care. Basically what they told me, over and over, is that they were already paying the most in the area. I finally left, for a 40% raise and a job that is way more recognised and enjoyable.

xiaodai 8y ago

Why don't you just ask for a raise if new people are making more than you?

readingnews 8y ago

Saying things like "I could make 50k more at blah" seems to be taken so lightly these days. I would party/panic/freak out like I won the lotto if you told me I could make 50k more somewhere else. 50k... do you have any idea what that does to your future earnings? Your 401k/retirement? Hell, even if you live the same as now, sticking 25K in the bank every year is worth a whole heaping spoonful of whatever hell they could possibly throw at you in the new position... but it seems almost daily I read about someone or hear about someone who says "eh, Ill pass on that 20/50/75/100k increase in salary, I'm not into "money"..." I suppose all of those people already have their million in the bank for retirement... or are independently wealthy. Where do all of those people come from?

lotsofpulp 8y ago
You’re not living the same lifestyle. Take a few international trips every year or live in or near a tier 1 city, or pay for a nice private school for the kids. Dinner and drinks out at non-fancy places is easy $100/person in a big city, vacations are $2k+ per person, private schools are $20k+ easy.
hopler 8y ago
The money isn't that great if you are miserable and your kids spend it after your funeral
- Aeolun 8y ago
  That will happen to your money after your funeral regardless. Not like you have any more use for it yourself.
  - hopler 8y ago
    Not if you have lower income and a job that makes you happier, which was the question up above.
war1025 8y ago
The Mexican fisherman story [1] is what it comes down to for me. You can work a little, play a little, and generally have a good time with life and get by (Mexican fisherman), or you can start a business, work long hours, build a fleet of boats that makes a ton of money, and then sell it all someday when you retire, at which point you can work a little, play a little, and generally have a good time. (American businessman). For me, I make enough to get by and then some. Yes I could work harder, but life is pretty good this way. [1] https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/ https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma...

neogodless 8y ago

I didn't see the WLB acronym in the article. Something like "whole-life benefits?" ETA: Just remembered "work-life balance." Gotcha!

Ma8ee 8y ago
I really wish people could stop using so many acronyms in general. Even though it usually is possible to guess, or in worst case google, the meaning, it always slow me down. I didn’t immediately understand WLB and I don’t remember seeing ETA meaning anything else that Estimated Time of Arrival before. It just doesn’t take that long to write out the whole words.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  Maybe we should use the Civil Service style and write out in full the first instance on an acronym.
- neogodless 8y ago
  Oh crap, the irony. As you probably figured out, ETA => "edited to add."

war1025 8y ago

I was in a very similar situation at the end of last year. Young kids and a work life balance that couldn't be beat. Had a couple expenses pop up that aggravated my irritation at being underpaid to the point that I looked for a different job. Calculated out how much I thought I'd need to offset the work-life balance bit, and went out and got an offer for that amount. Actually accepted the offer but my employer said they'd match that offer, which was a much better outcome for me given the work-life balance part. I figure if it doesn't end up working out, the worst case scenario is I'll feel comfortable asking a higher salary next time I am on the job hunt. For now I'm living in the best of both worlds.

lelima 8y ago
Thanks for Sharing your story, now my question is, how to ask for a raise? -just, I want a raise will do?
- war1025 8y ago
  I basically said, "Hey, I got this offer that is 50% more than what you're paying me, and I plan to take it." At that point I won whichever way things went down.

BenMorganIO 8y ago

I'd recommend a side project and see if you can start your own business. Sounds like a good time.