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Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.
- siculars 16y ago"This isn’t some BS social media thing that injects dancing pigs into your Facebook newsfeed." Lol. Great help wanted ad. They should all be like this.
- tomjen3 16y agoYeah, this is definitely one of the better help wanted ads, but it is a blatant rip-of. Or Scott has joined y combinator, which would be even more awesome
- varaon 16y agoNice, but you'd be much better off with "Good men and women wanted for hazardous journey." There may be statistically fewer women in tech, but you'll never hear from them with a title like that!
- antongm 16y agoThe headliner is an apocryphal quote from Ernest Shackleton, leader of a doomed but famous Antarctic expedition in 1914. Nothing about the current state of tech was implied, nor about our desired employee pool. Obviously we welcome one and all.
- limedaring 16y agoDon't think it's obvious, if you just look at the headline. Is the integrity of the quote more important than looking non-biased against women programmers?
- spitfire 16y agoYes, the integrity of the quote is more important than alienating a very few people who don't know history. Aside: I wouldn't want to work with someone who got wound up about something like this.
- limedaring 16y agoThe men who posted the ad would have laughed their socks off if a woman responded. Sure, it's immensely inspiring, but I wouldn't have been allowed to go on that expedition back in the day and it kind of makes me feel like I wouldn't be allowed to work at AdGrok as well, or at least looked down upon ("A woman programmer? Psh! Get back to the kitchen.")
- mike_h 16y agoI usually come out pretty strongly against programmer-culture misogyny, however subtle, but here we're talking about a pretty famous quotation and I would answer to your question, "yes". There's a difference between sexism and historically-weighted badassness. One could argue there's a literacy-filter being applied here more than a gender-filter.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- jacquesm 16y ago> Is the integrity of the quote more important than looking non-biased against women programmers? Yes, absolutely. It also pre-selects for those that have a sense of humor. If I were a woman - which I'm not - I would definitely play that to my advantage in my application.
- JabavuAdams 16y ago> Yes, absolutely. It also pre-selects for those that have a sense of humor. Why do minorities need to have a sense of humour about themselves? I do, but why do I have to to get into your club? FWIW, I've made countless raunchy jokes that would have gotten me flagged by HR in a staid shop. The thing is -- I take responsibility for that. I.e. if I offended someone it's not necessarily because they have no sense of humour.
- Semiapies 16y agoBecause if the majority can't universally dismiss someone else taking offense as "having no sense of humor", then they run the risk of admitting that they might have said something wrong, or that they could have said it in a better way. Dangit, answering rhetorical questions again... Personally, the funny part to me is people arguing that the "integrity" of a quote that's already been hacked up must be "maintained".
- sabj 16y agoI got the quote, appreciated the reference. Unfortunately for the purposes of this argument, am male. I would say that I'm OK with the quote for artistic purposes, perhaps vary the call to action in other contexts to avoid arousing any problems of bias... [O__o]
- CWuestefeld 16y agoIt may be worth noting that although the expedition was a failure, that was pretty much a matter of bad luck with the behavior of the ice floes. And as awful an experience as it must have been for the men involved, it's also worth noting (perhaps especially in this context) that not a single person lost his life, owing largely to some incredible leadership from Shackleton, and amazing skills from much of his crew.
- Semiapies 16y agoThere was some genuine heroism and technical excellence involved in the Titanic, but I wouldn't want to reference that in a start-up, either. That's the fun of marketing: other people can quite reasonably take other things from your references than the meaning you tried to evoke.
- arethuza 16y agoAnyone seeking to lead other can do a lot worst than trying to learn from Ernest Shackleton "but when you are in a hopeless situation, when you are seeing no way out, get down on your knees and pray for Shackleton"
- jacquesm 16y agoSuper quote, especially given the bits I remember about the 'endurance expedition', that's as nice a metaphor of what it can be like to run a startup. Hope you end up better than Shackleton and crew and succeed!
- crux_ 16y ago> Nothing about the current state of tech was implied I'll make your implication for you, then: The current state of tech is just as sexist and imbalanced as the world of exploration was in 1914. > Obviously we welcome one and all. If it were obvious, why did you need that footnote about women being welcome too? And why do you need to repeat that point in clarifying comments? (N.b., Slightly intentionally provocative.)
- JabavuAdams 16y agoIt's pretty obvious that your intent was innocent. But the fact that you didn't realize how awful a headline that is sends a different message. On the other hand, it's not just you guys -- i.e. you're no worse than the avg. tech company, FWIW. This is a classic example of the techie "we're a meritocracy, so we couldn't possibly be sexist" thinking that's so common. It's not the pat on the ass and glass-ceiling kind of sexism, to be sure, but it's the STFU 'cause no one's grabbing your ass kind of sexism.
- ekidd 16y agoIt's pretty obvious that your intent was innocent. But the fact that you didn't realize how awful a headline that is sends a different message. An apt way of putting it. Thank you. I wasn't familiar with the historical quote, and I only saw the headline on Hacker News. My initial reaction was, "Oh, good grief. Do we have to go through GenderFail, SmutOnRails, etc., every 15 minutes? I hate this conversation. It must be even less fun for female hackers, who can't win either way."
- ErrantX 16y agoIt shouldn't be an awful headline; that's the sad thing. I submit that those taking issue with it (i.e. those pointing out a potential offence) are actually part of the problem. One solution would be t encourage as many innocent headlines as it takes till it simple doesn't matter whether you say men, women or Martian - it just means people.... (unfortunately that means people will be offended, so possibly not the sanest approach) Ascribing an intent to someone who clearly doesn't mean it is just not cricket :)
- JabavuAdams 16y ago> Ascribing an intent to someone who clearly doesn't mean it is just not cricket :) Sure, but it betrays a certain cluelessness. I.e. It's not so much that this is an outrageous headline -- ZOMG off with their heads, public apology, blah blah. It's more a case of -- if they're clueless about this, then what else are they clueless about -- especially from the POV of a prospective female employee. E.g. I know of a sweet old grandma who described the colour of her sofa as "nigger brown". She had no ill intent, and I don't ascribe any to her. BUT ... it's evidence that she may have other ideas that I may not agree with -- especially if she's my boss. Evidence of cluelessness is ... at the very least ... evidence of cluelessness.
- d0mine 16y agoIt might be "urban legend" http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm
- Semiapies 16y agoThe updated headline makes that clearer - thanks for listening to the criticism.
- dfnord 16y agoUS citizens only?
- antongm 16y agoWe'd consider anybody. We have one non-US citizen founder right now.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- siddhant 16y ago"Why join the navy, when you can come be a pirate like us?" - probably one of the best lines I've heard in a while.
- gallerytungsten 16y agoI have used AdGrok to some degree, and while I have no interest in applying for the job, I can express my confidence in their can-do attitude and sense of humor. To the Pole!
- davidw 16y agoBTW, thanks for not using that "no comments" "YC company hiring" thing. It's really annoying not to let people discuss or ask questions about the opportunity in question.
- ryanwaggoner 16y agoSexist! Just kidding...people are too sensitive. http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm
- crux_ 16y agoWell, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their choice of headline is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive. You'd think it would be smarter to err in the other direction...
- yalurker 16y ago"I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive." I'll venture a guess: because many of us find it incredibly tiring and annoying to have to constantly stop and think "is there any possible way the following sentence could be interpreted as prejudiced against any group?" when communicating. If person A says something non-sexual and person B finds a way to make it so (ie "that's what she said") we think person B is the dirty minded one, not A. However if person A says something non-racial and person B finds a way to make it so, we act like A has committed a grave offense and needs to apologize. Too many people in America can't look at an ink-blot without seeing sexism or racism or discrimination of some stripe. Being "too sensitive" is often just causing controversy or problems where none needed to exist. It also makes it so that legitimate discrimination is harder to notice because it gets lost in a sea of false accusations. The tl;dr is: save the outrage for legitimate discrimination, don't waste time & energy trying to manufacture it everywhere
- crux_ 16y agoDo you really think the developer world, particularly within startups, doesn't have a serious problem with sexism?
- arkitaip 16y agoI can't think of a better ad to attract the people needed for a startup. Kudos for keeping it real, honest and to the point. Wish you the very best.
- ido 16y agoMaybe consider mentioning where you are? It took some googling to find out that SOMA is apparently somewhere in San Fransisco.
- ericd 16y agoI think the people getting caught up with the sensitivity of what is a pretty beautifully relevant reference wouldn't be a very good personality fit for working at AdGrok anyway. So it's a doubly good title - it's a great metaphor for a startup, and it performs the same filtering function that the original ad did. Brilliant.
- axod 16y agoI think the people getting caught up with the sensitivity... wouldn't be a great fit for being allowed on the internet. I guess we can all see now why most job postings have comments disabled.
- lian 16y agoDude, my literacy is pretty up there, and I didn't recognize the quote. I don't know that it would really tarnish its historical relevance to write "Men (or women) wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring". If their Steve Jobs quote is eligible for paraphrasing in order to seem original, I don't know why an old newspaper clipping isn't in order to seem like an equal-opportunity employer.
- hop 16y agoIts a historical quote from Ernest Shackleton when he was recruiting the crew for infamous 1914 Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition with ads in London newspapers that read: MEN WANTED: For hazardous journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success. Sir Ernest Shackleton. I very highly recommend the book - http://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shackletons-Incredible-Alfred-Lansing/dp/078670621X http://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shackletons-Incredible-Alfre...
- lian 16y agoYes, clearly we've all realized this by now.
- Semiapies 16y agoOr "Badasses wanted" or whatever. People who would have recognized the quote would still have recognized it. I wouldn't immediately think this is a huge issue, but 1) I'm a guy, so I don't have to wait until a tiny footnote at the end to know that they're not trying to exclude me and 2) I can't help noticing all the frantic huffing and puffing by people with no stake in this company to defend the use of "men".
- commanda 16y agoIt's really unfortunate that this poorly-chosen title overshadows an otherwise very attractive job posting. Sexism is still sexism, whether or not it's from 1914. -female and feminist programmer here.
- reason 16y agoIf you have a problem with the title of this job post, then chances are you're not fit for the company, or most young startups for that matter.
- Semiapies 16y agoSo, you're saying that the fact they rephrased the headline means that they aren't fit? Or is it that they might be more reasonable than defenders of the headline engaging in silly chest-pounding about "sensitive" people?
- reason 16y agoNot much to say really; I've got work to get to. I'm sure there are plenty of others in this thread who are more than willing to discuss the supposed intentions behind this implicitly sexist job posting that has seemed to generate so much nonsensical noise to where the posters themselves changed it, giving the children the pacifier they so desperately wanted. Edit: children, and men, and women.
- Semiapies 16y agoYou're too busy to say anything, so instead 70 words to try to tout your supposed superiority over the people you disagree with.
- lhnn 16y agoI support this headline. I'm sure these men would hire a female capable of providing the talent they require, and of fitting in with the culture of their workplace. I long to escape to such a place that doesn't cater to people looking for a reason to be offended, when no offense is warranted or intended.
- carols10cents 16y agoLet's say, for the sake of devil's advocacy, the historical quote was "Women wanted for hazardous journey". If the ad had used that as its headline, would you males feel encouraged to apply?
- stonemetal 16y agoIt depends, in this alternate history has women been used as a common word to mean person of either sex? If it has, like man has in this history, then I would not be discouraged.
- axod 16y agoYes I would.
- Semiapies 16y agoNope.
- Fjslfj 16y agoI don't understand why they feel morally superior to people creating games. Have we devolved to the point where search engine marketing is considered so prestigious an occupation that its practitioners feel they are able to make jokes about others?
- mceachen 16y agoWe've no beef against games. Or social networks. It's the dancing pigs that we are morally superior to.
- robryan 16y agoOne big difference is a direct revenue model, making something that creates direct value for clients is vastly different to making something cool and trying to figure out a revenue model later. Not to say that either type can both be a success and failure, just in this case it's much easier to monetize the customers you have.
- earl 16y agoInteresting -- cool job post. What I would really like to see, although of course you may not want to disclose this, is what sort of projects this person would work on in the first couple of months. For everybody else, I spent 2 years working on SEM and I think AdGrok is a great product, fwiw. See eg Clickable or KeyMetric as competitors; Clickable is self serve SEM on GYM, at least when I interviewed there. This is a much better interface and helps solve the biggest problem for small business sem, which isn't technical but is convincing people of value and helping nontechnical people use SEM without burning through too much money on account managers. Too bad I hate writing web apps, because this looks like an awesome opportunity. Are you planning on setting up call fowarding ala clickable / yodle / reachlocal? Overlaying that information would be awesome, though it's a huge pita...
- JabavuAdams 16y agoI used to think that programmers were smart because we could talk to machines. The shallowness of a lot of the posts on this emotional and contentious topic reinforce what I've learned since: on average programmers are not that smart, which is why they need to talk to simple machines. Basically, try to discuss something that ends in "ism", and otherwise reasonable people go all ape-shit.
- Semiapies 16y agoWell, yes - programmers are human. The terrible thing to me is that this discussion is better than I'd see in non-programmer circles.
- fossuser 16y agoThis looks like an awesome offer, too bad I still have a year and a half of school left. Interested in an intern? :-)