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EU to ban plastic plates, cups, and cutlery by 2021
- goodJobWalrus 8y agoSo what is the best replacement for fast food and takeaway purposes? Bamboo cutlery?
- rootusrootus 8y agoI wonder how much of the existing plastic could be replaced with PLA. For a lot of use cases it should have all the same upsides as oil-based plastic.
- mc32 8y agoMaybe you bring your own (multi use) take away container? Kind of like when you bring your own coffee mug to a coffee shop?
- GeneralMayhem 8y agoEven setting aside the inconvenience factor, that would become a hygiene problem very quickly. Disposability is extremely useful when cleaning isn't an immediate option.
- mc32 8y agoWith demand, (*some) offices will install fridges and sinks to accommodate new behavior, no?
- krastanov 8y agoThere is an edge case that is actually problematic: the one person that does not wash their multiple-use take-away container can be a source of contamination that hurts many more. This is something that buffet restaurants and school/university cafeterias actually have to deal with today. It is a minor problem (solvable with some discipline and maybe minor regulation), but it is still a problem.
- hombre_fatal 8y agoMaybe we'll just bring or receive our fast-fired pottery plates, eat on them, smash them into the clay pile on the way out, and some companies collect and recycle it back into quick pottery the same way companies drop drums of water off at my house. A lot of these comments just remind me of a roomie I had in uni would would come up with endless reasons why he never owned a single reusable piece of dishware. It's suddenly about hygiene and... do you even know how many people die in $country cuz they can't just throw their plates away?! And the time savings! He must save hours each day actually if you do the math. And are you sure using so much water to clean a plate is any eco-friendlier than the plastic he just tossed after eating that sandwich? Oh yeah, and disabled people! How would he clean a plate if he had no hands? Or if he was just a disembodied head whose only form of locomotion was to be tossed around like a volleyball. What then, huh?? But at this point you indulge him just to see if he'll even admit that he's just not willing to spend 5 seconds rinsing a plate after use. And any time he does use one of the communal reusable dishes, it'll collect mold in the sink until someone else washes it for him.
- tzs 8y agoI wonder if cutlery actually needs more cleaning than wiping thoroughly with a napkin after use, at least if it is cutlery that isn't shared? There is a tendency nowadays to be more concerned with dirt and germs than is biologically justified (possibly to our detriment in some cases--some researchers think that the rise in prevalence of allergies and asthma in children is due to insufficient exposure to things that can help train their immune systems since we are stopping those things before they get that far).
- DoreenMichele 8y agoWe already have an uptick in "medieval diseases"* from unsanitary conditions among the homeless. Getting takeout is one of the ways homeless individuals who have a modicum of cash income (as opposed to just food stamps and the like) can take care of themselves to some reasonable degree. They generally aren't going to be in a position to properly wash and cleanly store their own take away containers. Soup kitchens typically have worse food quality than fast food places, plus you typically wait in line for an hour or more next to other very poor people (often, but not always, also homeless). They frequently smell of cigarette smoke and/or marijuana smoke and are often in quite poor health, exposing you to a concentration of germs. Soup kitchens have a tendency to be a horrifying concentration of poverty that makes it quite difficult to avoid ending up sick. It didn't take long on the the street for me to decide that I would rather not eat for short stints than to go to most soup kitchens. It's also not uncommon for people who are handicapped, elderly or otherwise have personal challenges and personal burdens to rely heavily on take out. It's cheaper than eating in the restaurant because you can supply your own drinks, buy two meals and split it between three people in the privacy of your home and you don't necessarily have to tip. (I realize tipping is not a thing in some places, but you can get take out from places where it is a thing.) * https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/medieval-diseases-flare-as-unsanitary-living-conditions-proliferate/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/medieval-diseases...
- mc32 8y agoI wouldn’t be against carve outs for a relatively small proportion of the pop like the homeless. Also instead of takeout they can do cafeteria style feeding (I believe this was his if was done in the past, aka soup kitchens from the depression era).
- DoreenMichele 8y agoI already addressed why soup kitchens are a worse alternative than fast food in my experience. I can't believe you are rebutting any of my points with "We can just have more soup kitchens!" Some homeless people are living in their car, attending school or have a job, etc. It is not uncommon for homeless people to be actively trying to fit in and not be noticed as homeless. Most people did not think I was homeless upon meeting me. They only figured it out by seeing me repeatedly and realizing I wore the same clothes for two weeks or more and had "homeless habits" of various sorts. Even if you are not loathe to admit in line that you are homeless and entitled to the exception, how to you prove you are homeless? Proving a lack of a home winds up being a real issue for homeless people seeking services. The lack of something is often inherently hard to prove. Sometimes homeless people are told they can only access services if they are registered with one of the homeless services in town as proof of their lack of housing. This winds up being a serious barrier to accessing services. Now I need my registered homeless card to get my take out in disposable containers? And then simply having the containers signals to everyone who sees me that I'm probably homeless because that is on a short list of exemptions that entitle you to disposable containers? Let's just start tattooing blue lines across the foreheads of all homeless people to make sure they are branded for life. It would be vastly simpler than our current methodologies for politely painting them into a corner at every turn. (<-- sarcasm, obviously)
- mciancia 8y agoCutlery made from paper and/or wood
- Pfhreak 8y agoOr plant starches maybe?
- incog-neato 8y agoWhy not: Fast food: metal cutlery at the restaurant that gets washed and reused. Take away: your own cutlery at home.
- randyrand 8y agoAnd if you're on the go? Eating as a passenger in a car, etc.
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoI can fathom having a portable case for a set of silverware, that you clean when you get home.
- randyrand 8y agoIn the future we'll just walk around with silverware and a cup at all times.
- theklub 8y agoActually you might be onto a new market, creating forks that you bring with you everywhere like a pocket knife.
- jtuente 8y agoI wouldn't call camping supplies a new market so much as repurposed.
- zaarn 8y agoA pocketknife already doubles as a fork.
- jpindar 8y agoThey exist, and some of them don't look at all like camping equipment. https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Pen-Shape-Stainless-Folding-Chopsticks/dp/B00NPV9XV8/ref=sr_1_18?keywords=folding&qid=1553801766&s=kitchen&sr=1-18 https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Pen-Shape-Stainless-Folding-...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jnurmine 8y agoMaybe something like sulapac (www.sulapac.com) which is biodegradable and without plastic of any kind. For mugs and cups there is Isla packaging from Kotkamills. Solutions exist, plastic for consumer single use stuff is just plain stupid.
- vimy 8y agoThe western world is responsible for 1,25 % of all ocean plastic pollution. Europe is only 0,28 %![0] There is no need to ban single-use plastics in the West. It's just virtue signaling and the so-called 'solutions' lower our comfort, will cause a rise in food poisoning deaths and are worse for the environment.[1] When you mention this, people reply we should set an example and other countries will follow. The idea that Western countries should set an example to teach those 'dumb countries that can't think for themselves' how to do things seems very arrogant. And there are zero guarantees it will work. If it was as easy as setting an example, every country on earth would be a blossoming democracy by now... [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611#f1 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611#f1 [1] https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-... Edit: An actual solution would be if the EU invested in waste management solutions in the developing world. People mention micro-plastics as a bad thing but we don't know that yet. So far the level of evidence proving micro-plastics as harmful is on par with the evidence linking cancer to cellphones.
- funkythings 8y agoThank fucking god. Someone with a brain.
- GeneralMayhem 8y agoDoes this account for the trash that we send abroad for China to dispose of?
- vimy 8y agoNo, it does not and since China banned garbage imports last year we will see soon enough if the theory that China is dumping Western plastic in the ocean is correct. If that's the case, we should see a sharp decline in ocean plastics in the coming years.
- ineedasername 8y agoOnly if another country doesn't start doing it for us instead, or we do it ourselves. Though I think your general point holds, and hope the Chinese ban works to our advantage, forcing research into better ways of recycling and maybe even true single stream recycling, not the scam it often is.
- patrickaljord 8y agoThey're banning single use plastic only. Other plastic plates are not banned. Given how much it costs in Europe to rent square meters to store stuff I wonder if event companies won't just buy multiple-use plastic plates and just throw them away anyway as it's cheaper than to pay personal to clean them, transport them to containers and then rent the space to store them, secure them etc.
- seszett 8y agoWhy wouldn't they just switch to paper plates instead?
- danielbln 8y agoAnd wooden single-use cutlery is pretty common already today.
- ineedasername 8y agoReally? I've never seen it in the US, except in the form of wooden coffee stirrers.
- vonmoltke 8y agoI have seen bamboo plates and cutlery, though it isn't common.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- happymellon 8y agoYes. My local cafe has metal spoons for my yoghurt if I'm eating in, but wooden if I'm taking out. It's not unusual in the UK.
- bpyne 8y agoIt's not common. But a few cafes around me are wooden utensil only. Metal and paper straws I've also seen an uptick in.
- funkythings 8y agoDoes the EU ever do anything except banning things?
- dang 8y agoMaybe not, but we've banned this account for posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- progfix 8y agoWhy no plastic bottles as well? The vast majority of plastic I use is from bottles.
- Brakenshire 8y agoProbably because there is a health implication there, the possibility that people could get dehydrated and not have easy access to bottled water.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoThere are also substantial health implications to eliminating plastic cutlery, cups, etc. We may be largely oblivious to it now and we may fail to see the connection between the cutlery going and an uptick in illnesses after the change. The California bag ban slightly preceded the uptick in "medieval diseases" in California, which has since spread from Southern California to other cities (possibly by homeless people leaving California and taking their diseases with them). The uptick in such infections is generally traced to lack of sanitation among the homeless, but the idea that the bag ban is an element tends to get dismissed because "we can't prove it, man!" basically. I was still in California and still homeless when the bag ban was instituted. Following the ban, my sons and I saw more homeless people digging through trash cans, probably for free bags they could use for various purposes. I never did it, but some homeless people use plastic bags as a toilet substitute. They poop in a bag and take it to the nearest trash can rather than poop on the sidewalk. If you are digging bags out of a trash can to have a bag to poop in because you no longer have ready access to free new ones and 10 cents per bag is a financial hardship for you, well, it shouldn't shock anyone that there is an uptick in disease. But no one actually wants to believe that or take that possibility seriously since no official health organization has announced that this is an issue. Meanwhile, I have seen articles that suggest the CDC is actively downplaying the uptick in diseases like hepatitis. They aren't aggressively issuing public health warnings and putting this into the news. It's been slow to get press and the problem gets downplayed as largely an issue for homeless people. From what I have read, a lot of antibiotic resistant infections are bred in third world countries with poor plumbing and the like, then inadvertently exported via travelers. But, hey, the US and Europe can both readily get in on the action by banning all the disposable items that help make modern life less dangerous than life in a third world country. Let's go with that plan. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/medieval-diseases-flare-as-unsanitary-living-conditions-proliferate/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/medieval-diseases...
- randyrand 8y agoKeep this up and the 2nd Brexit vote might never happen.
- ineedasername 8y agoWhat about single use made from bioplastics? Are they that much more expensive?
- amyjess 8y agoThe biggest problem with these is that there aren't any bioplastic options right now that don't set off one food allergy or another.
- danet 8y agoThis still doesn't fix the problem, bioplastics would still take long time to degrade, and they would need specific conditions to do so, we're just offloading the problem to indefinite future and prefix 'bio-' in the name makes us feel good about ourself. For example PLA for 3D printers, technically bioplastic, but realistically it still needs to be collected and when it comes to breaking it down, the process is still pretty involved, and who is going to pay for all of that?
- api 8y agoLike the bag ban in California this will probably just increase trash by causing people to use bulkier disposables. Restaurants and such will replace these with super-cheap glass or metal disposables that also consume more fuel when shipped because they weigh more. Cheap paper alternatives are often from pulp that is not sustainably sourced and in many cases they fall apart and so are rejected by customers. These measures might be well intentioned but they don't work and often backfire. There is no way we're going to decrease oceanic plastic pollution without sanctioning or otherwise pressuring the nations and industries that are primarily responsible for it. For nations it's largely China, India, and a few others. For industries fishing fleets are a disproportionate source, and most of the culprits here are also not US or EU based.
- drak0n1c 8y agoThis is what I've seen happen here in Seattle. Every place just gives out bulkier multiple use containers when anyone gets takeout salad or MealPal, and people just throw them away as per usual. There's a Korean Deli all you can fit in a box type restaurant that gives a $1 discount if you bring back your own box, but that's the only place and they were doing it before the regulations anyways. Regulations can have unintended consequences. No joke -- McDonalds is the most environmentally friendly takeout in Seattle. The whole thing has been compostable recycled paper for a long time.
- normalperson 8y ago90% of the plastic in the ocean comes from Africa and Asia. First world countries put their garbage, generally speaking, into garbage dumps. This EU rule will do nothing.
- yihsiu 8y agoDo (almost) nothing directly. But it may facilitate similar things in other countries/regions. It may stimulate, and the experience can also help executing policies. New technologies or methods can also be developed first. So I could be more meaningful than it looks like.
- drak0n1c 8y agoHere is a HN comment from 3 months ago that includes extensive research on the subject. More specifically, much of the plastic waste in the ocean looks to be from merchant shipping abuses, not single-use plastic litter. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18731627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18731627
- jacobolus 8y agoYes, we also need a worldwide ban on plastic fishing nets, and their replacement by something which biodegrades. Pretty hard political problem though.
- boudin 8y agoIt is still better than doing nothing. It also will promote materials that are a better fit for recycling.
- Agustus 8y agoIn the case of banning plastic bags, certain areas have seen an uptick in feces in areas because the homeless were using the bags for defecation and sanitation. The ban he had an impact, detrimental to the point where a first world nation is on track to have preventable disease outbreaks. There are cost benefit analyses that should be done prior to saying that a ban is better than nothing.
- Luc 8y agoI've seen these reusable cups at festivals: https://www.ecocupshop.co.uk/en/ https://www.ecocupshop.co.uk/en/ There's a 1€ deposit but some people keep the cup as a memento. Another side effect is thieves breaking into the festival tent at night to steal the plastic pipes containing dirty cups (so they can get the deposit for them).
- jpindar 8y agoThose might make the high prices of drinks at some events less annoying since you get a souvenir.
- joshuaheard 8y agoIf you could build a machine that sterilized the utensils, shredded them, and then 3d printed them. If the machine was the size of a microwave, and cost under $200, you could make a fortune.
- mips_avatar 8y agoPeople keep trying to do this. The problem is the grade of plastic is awful, and 3d printing isn’t that fun/useful with bad filament.
- joshuaheard 8y agoWhat about a small injection mold?
- johnzim 8y agoNot that I'm especially surprised but the concept of subsidiarity isn't worth much these days is it?
- skrebbel 8y agoI'm strongly pro EU but at the same time sad that the subsidiarity principle has become so weak. The EU can be better than this. Should be, has to be. I mean I understand that you can't introduce a bill like the GDPR effectively if every EU country does it differently. But plastic? Come on. I support the gist of this ban by the way, yet agree with you that it has nothing to do at the EU level.
- vbuwivbiu 8y agofor the economics experts: how could the market eliminate this problem by itself ?
- habnds 8y agoIt's a market failure that they're trying to correct. Externalities aren't fixed by markets because they're external to those markets.
- jwr 8y agoReading these comments makes me sad, but I am also beginning to understand the opposition to limiting carbon emissions. Introduce an initiative that is "obviously good". I mean, none of the commenters here will be disadvantaged by single-use plastic being banned. It is obviously better for the environment. Whichever way you look at it, it is an improvement on the current state of affairs. And yet, people will moan and complain, criticize, pull out "statistics" out of thin air, say that this "does not solve the real problem", that it isn't important. And this is the enlightened HN community, the epitome of progressiveness. This is similar to the climate change discussions. Moving away from fossil fuels is obviously better for the environment and for us. And yet, people will moan and complain, criticize, point fingers, say that it's the other guys who pollute, or say that this particular change "doesn't matter", because there are bigger polluters out there. I am very glad the EU is making this move and I'm happy there are still some places in the world who can effect change. I wish the EU was similarly radical with respect to its beloved car industry, or with moving towards nuclear power (not away from it), but one can hope.
- vimy 8y ago>It is obviously better for the environment. Except it isn't and plastic is for many uses the best material. Take glass for example. Cons of Glass: It breaks It costs more to ship It is more expensive to recycle Glass takes twice as much energy to produce More pollution is created in the manufacturing, shipping and recycling of glass Glass creates more than 6 times the global warming gases than plastic ------------------- Cons of plastic: Litter (but people throw glass away too) Some plastics can leach chemicals Some plastics contain PVCs
- Brakenshire 8y agoUnless I'm missing something, this seems spurious, what makes you think a ban on single use plastic plates, cups, straws, coffee stirrers and cutlery means people will use glass equivalents? Or rather, to make the comparison valid, single use glass equivalents.
- Mirioron 8y ago
- sschueller 8y agoI'm going to keep saying it. The issue is trash disposal especially in third world countries. You can't just pile trash on landfills. I'm countries like Switzerland were most trash is incinerated to generate electricity, getting rid of plastic bags has little impact if not increase overall CO2 use since a alternate bag uses way more CO2 to be produced. One stat stated that a woven bag would need to be used 7000 times to offset the CO2 vs the amount of CO2 used to make a plastic bag.
- Mirioron 8y agoIf you look at the EU's own numbers on it they say that 150,000 tons of plastic are tossed into European waters per year. Single use plastics make up about half of that. This is less than 2% of the 8 million tons of plastic tossed into the oceans worldwide. We're basically trying to fix less than 1% of the problem with this. Considering how much ire this is raising I'm not sure this is a good use of the time of environmentalists.
- thatoneuser 8y agoSigh. And here's a reasonable criticism of this implementation and surprise surprise - you're downvoted without anyone responding. You're thinking rationally. Go for the most effective changes first. The low hanging fruit. If that means plastic straws and forks then so be it. But it's pretty hard to imagine this is the best path and it's a lot easier to think it's just pencil pushing beurocrats coming up with an idea to appear progressive. If there's data out there that shows this move will be significant then fine, but at the rate these bans are going I see nothing but it exhausting what momentum we have to improve our behavior.
- NikkiA 8y agoThey were likely downvoted because... > 150,000 tons of plastic are tossed into European waters per year. Single use plastics make up about half of that Regardless of the worldwide issue, the poster themselves states it's 50% of the plastic in european waterways, why shouldn't europe care about reducing 50% ?!?
- dfilppi 8y agoStart firing up the chainsaws to mow down the forests for paper plates.
- wtdata 8y agoSincerely, the point is not of is actually going to reduce plastic in a big enough scale to make a difference, the point is that it will make business come up with alternatives and progress us towards a solution to plastic use that can then be applied in a more extensive way. The EU, although not bring perfect, is usually the place where these kind of measures start, and I am grateful for it.
- thatoneuser 8y agoI have a lot of doubt that removing a negative behavior from companies will cause a positive one to pop up necessarily. It may, it may not. If they want companies to come up with a solution why not offer a bounty for better tech? At least then it's a primary motivator, while with bans there could be any number of other responses.