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Can any other Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (TACC) stop in such a case? (Real question, I don't know). My current understanding is that Tesla's TACC is the best

Can any other Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (TACC) stop in such a case? (Real question, I don't know). My current understanding is that Tesla's TACC is the best on the market. Correct?

toomuchtodo 8y ago
This is a deficiency in several automatic emergency braking systems [1]. Tesla extracts as much signal from front facing radar as they can, but edge cases abound. Marketplace or Planet Money had a piece a few weeks ago that mentioned the hardest problem was consumer education about these safety systems. People are inherently not interested in learning about the life safety systems in their cars. They expect it to “just work”. Whose failing is it if warnings clearly state that isn’t the case? “The car companies don't hide the fact that today's AEB systems have blind spots. It's all there in the owner's manuals, typically covered by both an all-encompassing legal disclaimer and explicit examples of why the systems might fail to intervene. For instance, the Camry's AEB system may not work when you're driving on a hill. It might not spot vehicles with high ground clearance or those with low rear ends. It may not work if a wiper blade blocks the camera. Toyota says the system could also fail if the vehicle is wobbling, whatever that means. It may not function when the sun shines directly on the vehicle ahead or into the camera mounted near the rearview mirror.” [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu...
- jeremyjh 8y ago
  Without doubt it is Tesla’s fault, due to how they have named and marketed the feature. Even if they fixed the name, they have created a system that encourages people to disengage when it is not safe to do so. You can’t make a system inherently unsafe and absolve responsibility by adding a warning.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Tesla isn’t responsible for ignorant consumers. The lowest common denominator should not guide product marketing and education.
- VikingCoder 8y ago
  > Whose failing is it if warnings clearly state that isn’t the case? Tesla should be responsible and stop marketing it. Otherwise you're begging legislators to write ham-handed laws, begging courts to set awful precedents. Either way, they are absolutely poisoning the well.
baddox 8y ago
I don’t think so. My understanding is that this is completely intended (and documented) behavior in Teslas and all other makes with this feature. Correct me if I’m wrong, but no adaptive cruise control systems perform full emergency breaking or emergency swerving when traveling at high speeds. Here’s an an article from last year: https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/ https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/
- nradov 8y ago
  The latest generation of Volvo's driver assistance system will do emergency braking and swerving at high speeds. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15342750/2018-volvo-xc60-will-help-drivers-steer-clear-of-trouble/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15342750/2018-volvo-xc60-...
superice 8y ago
I drive a 2018 VW Golf Variant (Station Wagon) and the Adaptive Cruise Control from VW also has this problem. I regularly use it for city driving from traffic light to traffic light which means that I basically only have to steer a little, but if I'm driving towards a stationary car waiting in front of a red light, it will not detect the car until it starts to move.
- kijin 8y ago
  So it's like the T. Rex from the original Jurassic Park movie? "He can't see you if you don't move."
mikejb 8y ago
> Can any other Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (TACC) stop in such a case? (Real question, I don't know). I haven't found conclusive evidence, but the lack of news around other TACCs crashing into stationary objects is an indicator it might be a Autopilot specific issue. > My current understanding is that Tesla's TACC is the best on the market. Correct? Define best. It definitely has a lot of features few or no other systems have; on the other hand, it's a test program. It's officially Beta-Software, given to drivers to test and identify issues. So from a feature-set it's probably the best you can buy - but it turns you into a Test-Driver rather than a user of a product.
- kokx 8y ago
  > I haven't found conclusive evidence, but the lack of news around other TACCs crashing into stationary objects is an indicator it might be a Autopilot specific issue. IMO, I think this may actually not be true. Due to Tesla's popularity, and the amount of investors that have stated that they were shorting TSLA, I do think that media have a tendency to report more news about such accidents just because a Tesla was involved. If a Tesla crashes somewhere, the first question probably is "Was Autopilot enabled?", while with most other car crashes, it's just a car crash. So I don't think that lack of news about other cars with TACC means that they don't suffer from similar issues. (TBH I wouldn't be able to name any other cars with such an advanced TACC either).
  - shereadsthenews 8y ago
    Tesla’s popularity? It is the twentieth-best-selling brand.
VikingCoder 8y ago
Sounds like TACC is deadly, then. Can Waymo handle this situation or not?
rayiner 8y ago
Tesla's system is not the best: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu....

Can any other Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (TACC) stop in such a case? (Real question, I don't know). My current understanding is that Tesla's TACC is the best on the market. Correct?

toomuchtodo 8y ago

This is a deficiency in several automatic emergency braking systems [1]. Tesla extracts as much signal from front facing radar as they can, but edge cases abound. Marketplace or Planet Money had a piece a few weeks ago that mentioned the hardest problem was consumer education about these safety systems. People are inherently not interested in learning about the life safety systems in their cars. They expect it to “just work”. Whose failing is it if warnings clearly state that isn’t the case? “The car companies don't hide the fact that today's AEB systems have blind spots. It's all there in the owner's manuals, typically covered by both an all-encompassing legal disclaimer and explicit examples of why the systems might fail to intervene. For instance, the Camry's AEB system may not work when you're driving on a hill. It might not spot vehicles with high ground clearance or those with low rear ends. It may not work if a wiper blade blocks the camera. Toyota says the system could also fail if the vehicle is wobbling, whatever that means. It may not function when the sun shines directly on the vehicle ahead or into the camera mounted near the rearview mirror.” [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu...

jeremyjh 8y ago
Without doubt it is Tesla’s fault, due to how they have named and marketed the feature. Even if they fixed the name, they have created a system that encourages people to disengage when it is not safe to do so. You can’t make a system inherently unsafe and absolve responsibility by adding a warning.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Tesla isn’t responsible for ignorant consumers. The lowest common denominator should not guide product marketing and education.
VikingCoder 8y ago
> Whose failing is it if warnings clearly state that isn’t the case? Tesla should be responsible and stop marketing it. Otherwise you're begging legislators to write ham-handed laws, begging courts to set awful precedents. Either way, they are absolutely poisoning the well.

baddox 8y ago

I don’t think so. My understanding is that this is completely intended (and documented) behavior in Teslas and all other makes with this feature. Correct me if I’m wrong, but no adaptive cruise control systems perform full emergency breaking or emergency swerving when traveling at high speeds. Here’s an an article from last year: https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/ https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/

nradov 8y ago
The latest generation of Volvo's driver assistance system will do emergency braking and swerving at high speeds. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15342750/2018-volvo-xc60-will-help-drivers-steer-clear-of-trouble/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15342750/2018-volvo-xc60-...

superice 8y ago

I drive a 2018 VW Golf Variant (Station Wagon) and the Adaptive Cruise Control from VW also has this problem. I regularly use it for city driving from traffic light to traffic light which means that I basically only have to steer a little, but if I'm driving towards a stationary car waiting in front of a red light, it will not detect the car until it starts to move.

kijin 8y ago
So it's like the T. Rex from the original Jurassic Park movie? "He can't see you if you don't move."

mikejb 8y ago

> Can any other Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (TACC) stop in such a case? (Real question, I don't know). I haven't found conclusive evidence, but the lack of news around other TACCs crashing into stationary objects is an indicator it might be a Autopilot specific issue. > My current understanding is that Tesla's TACC is the best on the market. Correct? Define best. It definitely has a lot of features few or no other systems have; on the other hand, it's a test program. It's officially Beta-Software, given to drivers to test and identify issues. So from a feature-set it's probably the best you can buy - but it turns you into a Test-Driver rather than a user of a product.

kokx 8y ago
> I haven't found conclusive evidence, but the lack of news around other TACCs crashing into stationary objects is an indicator it might be a Autopilot specific issue. IMO, I think this may actually not be true. Due to Tesla's popularity, and the amount of investors that have stated that they were shorting TSLA, I do think that media have a tendency to report more news about such accidents just because a Tesla was involved. If a Tesla crashes somewhere, the first question probably is "Was Autopilot enabled?", while with most other car crashes, it's just a car crash. So I don't think that lack of news about other cars with TACC means that they don't suffer from similar issues. (TBH I wouldn't be able to name any other cars with such an advanced TACC either).
- shereadsthenews 8y ago
  Tesla’s popularity? It is the twentieth-best-selling brand.

VikingCoder 8y ago

Sounds like TACC is deadly, then. Can Waymo handle this situation or not?

rayiner 8y ago

Tesla's system is not the best: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu....