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I know I will be downvoted to hell by the young folks that don't know how things work, but the only way to fix the absurd power imbalance and worker hostile law

I know I will be downvoted to hell by the young folks that don't know how things work, but the only way to fix the absurd power imbalance and worker hostile laws we have in the USA is through strong unions. It is such an obvious thing that you can even spot when union-busting laws were passed in the trends for inflation adjusted wages. Software engineers think they are irreplaceable and our current conditions will last forever but it's a lie. Good news is it seems we have a new generation of politicians worried about it but we as workers have to do our part or we will progressively lose more and more of our hard earned "privilege" and make sure more can benefit from it.

scarface74 8y ago
I’m 45 and the last thing I want is a union. Unions tend to make all workers equal even those who work harder/smarter. If I am 50, staying current with technology, kept my resume up to date, and kept my network strong, why would I want to be lumped in with someone who has done none of those things?
- Barrin92 8y ago
  because you can still benefit from collective bargaining power even if you see yourself as personally superior to your peers. Not to mention that this is a somewhat terrible attitude to be honest. A lot of 45 year olds might have legitimate disadvantages compared to younger workers. Like say children, health issues, other commitments that keep them from being as flexible as someone in their youth. So this isn't just an individual issue, it's a collective one. A little bit of looking out for each other rather than treating this like a olympic competition probably wouldn't hurt. And it's probably what got us into this situation to begin with.
  - dodobirdlord 8y ago
    I'd value a strong professional association, and I would even pay meaningful dues to it, but I don't want a union. I'd like to be part of an organization that can keep a staff of lawyers around to review contracts and have an official policy on what clauses are acceptable and what aren't acceptable, what to expect in terms of intellectual property ownership, working hours, etc. Having a cadre of lawyers around to protest discriminatory hiring and firing practices would also be great. But having quotas, or formal seniority, or having said organization have a seat at the table during hiring and firing discussions or salary decisions sounds like a total disaster. Perhaps what I want is a guild? Maybe a licensing board? Professional association seems like the best terminology, but I want a professional association with some teeth.
    - luckydata 8y ago
      That's called a union.
    - krageon 8y ago
      You've described a union and said that you hate the things which are not necessarily something a union does. So you want a union that works well for you. I think that sounds reasonable.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Like say children, health issues, other commitments that keep them from being as flexible as someone in their youth. As far as family, you can’t have it all. If you decide to prioritize family over your career (which you should), why do you expect to be compensated as well as someone who is willing to put their job first? While I’m fairly compensated for my location and for what I do, should I complain that consultants make $60K+ a year more than I do because they are willing to do “100% travel” during the week and I’m not until my younger son graduates? I’ve said twice in this post, I know I have a disadvantage over other developers - I have a disability that only allows me to type with one hand. There are legal protections sure, but those are easy for a company to get around. I am use to having to be more competitive. But there is a difference between being competitive getting a job - if I fill a position that means someone else didn’t get that position. But, I refuse to waste time playing politics and getting ahead at a job at the expense of someone else.
    - luckydata 8y ago
      It's so sad that years of brainwashing made you think this pile of bullshit. The way we organize society and the economy IS UP TO US, to find a model that serves our happiness and fulfillment as humans, not the other way around. It saddens me that so many of us are willing slaves to a dehumanizing system of oppression.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Yes. I find happiness going to work at 8 and getting off at 5 and having someone else worry about finding clients, funding,customers and getting the same amount in my check every week. Some other people find happiness from starting a business where there is a lot of uncertainty, risk and they have to put in long hours. Some other people find happiness of making more money and accepting the trade off of traveling during the week. So what part of me going into an office every day getting paid doing the same thing I did as a hobby 30 years ago in my bedroom on my Apple //e and coming home to my family in my house in the burbs is dehumanizing? If you are a software developer in almost any major city in the US, on average your income is more than 80% of the population.
- deytempo 8y ago
  Same reason you pay taxes. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts and you can always choose not to work somewhere that is unionized.
- loteck 8y ago
  What an odd thing to say in a thread about discrimination. "The last thing I want is someone to protect me from widespread discrimination, after all, why would I? Look at all my merits!" The point of age discrimination is that none of your merits matter, the only thing that matters is that someone doesnt like your age, and you're out.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I’ve also said that I think ageism is overblown in software engineering. Yes, this is a clear cut case of discrimination what happened with IBM. But, IBM is far from being a software engineering focused company. I also don’t live in a fantasy land where the world is fair. I’ve learned a long time ago not to depend on a job for my livelihood, but my career. For software engineers who have kept their skills current, live in a major metropolitan area in the US, and have kept their network strong, in 2019, I know for a fact that companies are falling all over themselves to hire us. How many people at IBM fall in that category? Given the choice between unionizing and taking the tact I recommend - changing jobs anytime you see that your skills are falling behind the market, keeping your resume up to date, keeping in touch with former managers and coworkers and just really not being complacent- I would prefer keeping my future in my own hands. I said in another post that I’m 45, Black, with a mild disability that only allows me to type with one hand. If anyone theoretically should have to worry about discrimination it’s me.
    - mkane848 8y ago
      >I also don’t live in a fantasy land where the world is fair So we just settle for how things are? Why not at least to try to cut out some of the bullshit that absolutely doesn't need to be there?
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Because I have bills to pay right now. But the alternative that is being proposed - unions - aren’t about fairness if your definition of fair is that people who work harder should be awarded more.
- intelliderp 8y ago
  Do you have any objective comparison metric to prove you are really so far ahead of the others, and not behind them or somewhere in the middle range?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I never said I was "far ahead of others". The only thing I said is that I keep my skills current with the market, keep my resume up to date, and keep my network warm. The objective measure that all that is true, is that I can reach out to my network and have multiple job offers in three weeks. It doesn't take a special snowflake to do that if you live in a major metropolitan area and you've done all of the above. I'm definitely not still doing ASP.Net WebForms and VB.Net in 2019 trying to compete in a market where everyone wants the $cool_kids stack.
- gerbilly 8y ago
  Just curious, are you working as an employee or a freelance contractor?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Currently an employee and since we are talking about ageism, it’s a small company where the founders, management and all of the devs and QA are between 35-55. In two or three years, I will probably work for a consulting company or just as a W2 contractor for recruiting agency. I’ll take the lower pay for the peace of mind from not having to chase clients and payments.
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  Tom Brady is in a union. That doesn't mean he gets paid the same as everyone else in the union, it just means the rookie he's throwing the ball to gets non-abusive treatment.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Yes but the union also limits how much Tom Brady can get paid and where he is allowed to work. Also once you try to enter the pros, you don’t get to decide the team you go to. It’s based on which team chooses you based on the draft order. Teams also can’t compete with each other for the best players. If a team chose Tom Brady and had the first pick, another team can’t offer him more money to come to their team. Do you really want to use that as an example?
    - hopler 8y ago
      > He was scheduled to earn $14 million in base salary with a $1 million roster bonus in both 2018 and 2019 Works for me. Anyway, the rules you are talking about are NFL rules, and NFL is a legal trust. The NFL draft is equivalent to a hiring manager claiming you from your company's hiring pool. Tom Brady can play football in a different league if he wants to, and his union has negotiated his right to profit from his IP outside of team work.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        So do you think being in s union is going to net you $14 million?
a_imho 8y ago
I would not hold my breath over any politician looking out for the people.
- luckydata 8y ago
  that's a bad attitude. You need to punish the ones that don't and reward the ones that do. It's the people that talk like you do that gave us Steve King, Mitch McConnel, Paul Ryan and Donald Trump, the most despicable and corrupt political class this country has ever had.
  - hopler 8y ago
    Nonsense. Those people were elected by the majority of voters, as weighted by our system (for better or for worse), not because of voter apathy.
    - pm90 8y ago
      This is untrue. Voter participation is among the worst in most Conservative, and especially Southern states. So the root cause for why Republicans get voted repeatedly is also voter apathy or the inability for non-white voters to vote easily too. These choices don't reflect the will of the majority in many instances.
brlewis 8y ago
I'm 51, and I'm downvoting mainly because the "the young folks that don't know how things work" is a sweeping age-related judgement. It's the same bad thing that this article is about.
- Chardok 8y ago
  Its even worse when you look at how its been declining the past 50 years (https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/23/385843576/50-years-of-shrinking-union-membership-in-one-map https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/23/385843576/50-y...) way before the "young folks" even entered the workforce. As a young folk myself I am certainly pro-union, especially for newer fields like IT that are too fresh to know what the benefits of a union can offer.

scarface74 8y ago

I’m 45 and the last thing I want is a union. Unions tend to make all workers equal even those who work harder/smarter. If I am 50, staying current with technology, kept my resume up to date, and kept my network strong, why would I want to be lumped in with someone who has done none of those things?

Barrin92 8y ago
because you can still benefit from collective bargaining power even if you see yourself as personally superior to your peers. Not to mention that this is a somewhat terrible attitude to be honest. A lot of 45 year olds might have legitimate disadvantages compared to younger workers. Like say children, health issues, other commitments that keep them from being as flexible as someone in their youth. So this isn't just an individual issue, it's a collective one. A little bit of looking out for each other rather than treating this like a olympic competition probably wouldn't hurt. And it's probably what got us into this situation to begin with.
- dodobirdlord 8y ago
  I'd value a strong professional association, and I would even pay meaningful dues to it, but I don't want a union. I'd like to be part of an organization that can keep a staff of lawyers around to review contracts and have an official policy on what clauses are acceptable and what aren't acceptable, what to expect in terms of intellectual property ownership, working hours, etc. Having a cadre of lawyers around to protest discriminatory hiring and firing practices would also be great. But having quotas, or formal seniority, or having said organization have a seat at the table during hiring and firing discussions or salary decisions sounds like a total disaster. Perhaps what I want is a guild? Maybe a licensing board? Professional association seems like the best terminology, but I want a professional association with some teeth.
  - luckydata 8y ago
    That's called a union.
  - krageon 8y ago
    You've described a union and said that you hate the things which are not necessarily something a union does. So you want a union that works well for you. I think that sounds reasonable.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Like say children, health issues, other commitments that keep them from being as flexible as someone in their youth. As far as family, you can’t have it all. If you decide to prioritize family over your career (which you should), why do you expect to be compensated as well as someone who is willing to put their job first? While I’m fairly compensated for my location and for what I do, should I complain that consultants make $60K+ a year more than I do because they are willing to do “100% travel” during the week and I’m not until my younger son graduates? I’ve said twice in this post, I know I have a disadvantage over other developers - I have a disability that only allows me to type with one hand. There are legal protections sure, but those are easy for a company to get around. I am use to having to be more competitive. But there is a difference between being competitive getting a job - if I fill a position that means someone else didn’t get that position. But, I refuse to waste time playing politics and getting ahead at a job at the expense of someone else.
  - luckydata 8y ago
    It's so sad that years of brainwashing made you think this pile of bullshit. The way we organize society and the economy IS UP TO US, to find a model that serves our happiness and fulfillment as humans, not the other way around. It saddens me that so many of us are willing slaves to a dehumanizing system of oppression.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Yes. I find happiness going to work at 8 and getting off at 5 and having someone else worry about finding clients, funding,customers and getting the same amount in my check every week. Some other people find happiness from starting a business where there is a lot of uncertainty, risk and they have to put in long hours. Some other people find happiness of making more money and accepting the trade off of traveling during the week. So what part of me going into an office every day getting paid doing the same thing I did as a hobby 30 years ago in my bedroom on my Apple //e and coming home to my family in my house in the burbs is dehumanizing? If you are a software developer in almost any major city in the US, on average your income is more than 80% of the population.
deytempo 8y ago
Same reason you pay taxes. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts and you can always choose not to work somewhere that is unionized.
loteck 8y ago
What an odd thing to say in a thread about discrimination. "The last thing I want is someone to protect me from widespread discrimination, after all, why would I? Look at all my merits!" The point of age discrimination is that none of your merits matter, the only thing that matters is that someone doesnt like your age, and you're out.
- scarface74 8y ago
  I’ve also said that I think ageism is overblown in software engineering. Yes, this is a clear cut case of discrimination what happened with IBM. But, IBM is far from being a software engineering focused company. I also don’t live in a fantasy land where the world is fair. I’ve learned a long time ago not to depend on a job for my livelihood, but my career. For software engineers who have kept their skills current, live in a major metropolitan area in the US, and have kept their network strong, in 2019, I know for a fact that companies are falling all over themselves to hire us. How many people at IBM fall in that category? Given the choice between unionizing and taking the tact I recommend - changing jobs anytime you see that your skills are falling behind the market, keeping your resume up to date, keeping in touch with former managers and coworkers and just really not being complacent- I would prefer keeping my future in my own hands. I said in another post that I’m 45, Black, with a mild disability that only allows me to type with one hand. If anyone theoretically should have to worry about discrimination it’s me.
  - mkane848 8y ago
    >I also don’t live in a fantasy land where the world is fair So we just settle for how things are? Why not at least to try to cut out some of the bullshit that absolutely doesn't need to be there?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Because I have bills to pay right now. But the alternative that is being proposed - unions - aren’t about fairness if your definition of fair is that people who work harder should be awarded more.
intelliderp 8y ago
Do you have any objective comparison metric to prove you are really so far ahead of the others, and not behind them or somewhere in the middle range?
- scarface74 8y ago
  I never said I was "far ahead of others". The only thing I said is that I keep my skills current with the market, keep my resume up to date, and keep my network warm. The objective measure that all that is true, is that I can reach out to my network and have multiple job offers in three weeks. It doesn't take a special snowflake to do that if you live in a major metropolitan area and you've done all of the above. I'm definitely not still doing ASP.Net WebForms and VB.Net in 2019 trying to compete in a market where everyone wants the $cool_kids stack.
gerbilly 8y ago
Just curious, are you working as an employee or a freelance contractor?
- scarface74 8y ago
  Currently an employee and since we are talking about ageism, it’s a small company where the founders, management and all of the devs and QA are between 35-55. In two or three years, I will probably work for a consulting company or just as a W2 contractor for recruiting agency. I’ll take the lower pay for the peace of mind from not having to chase clients and payments.
TheCoelacanth 8y ago
Tom Brady is in a union. That doesn't mean he gets paid the same as everyone else in the union, it just means the rookie he's throwing the ball to gets non-abusive treatment.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Yes but the union also limits how much Tom Brady can get paid and where he is allowed to work. Also once you try to enter the pros, you don’t get to decide the team you go to. It’s based on which team chooses you based on the draft order. Teams also can’t compete with each other for the best players. If a team chose Tom Brady and had the first pick, another team can’t offer him more money to come to their team. Do you really want to use that as an example?
  - hopler 8y ago
    > He was scheduled to earn $14 million in base salary with a $1 million roster bonus in both 2018 and 2019 Works for me. Anyway, the rules you are talking about are NFL rules, and NFL is a legal trust. The NFL draft is equivalent to a hiring manager claiming you from your company's hiring pool. Tom Brady can play football in a different league if he wants to, and his union has negotiated his right to profit from his IP outside of team work.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      So do you think being in s union is going to net you $14 million?

a_imho 8y ago

I would not hold my breath over any politician looking out for the people.

luckydata 8y ago
that's a bad attitude. You need to punish the ones that don't and reward the ones that do. It's the people that talk like you do that gave us Steve King, Mitch McConnel, Paul Ryan and Donald Trump, the most despicable and corrupt political class this country has ever had.
- hopler 8y ago
  Nonsense. Those people were elected by the majority of voters, as weighted by our system (for better or for worse), not because of voter apathy.
  - pm90 8y ago
    This is untrue. Voter participation is among the worst in most Conservative, and especially Southern states. So the root cause for why Republicans get voted repeatedly is also voter apathy or the inability for non-white voters to vote easily too. These choices don't reflect the will of the majority in many instances.

brlewis 8y ago

I'm 51, and I'm downvoting mainly because the "the young folks that don't know how things work" is a sweeping age-related judgement. It's the same bad thing that this article is about.

Chardok 8y ago
Its even worse when you look at how its been declining the past 50 years (https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/23/385843576/50-years-of-shrinking-union-membership-in-one-map https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/23/385843576/50-y...) way before the "young folks" even entered the workforce. As a young folk myself I am certainly pro-union, especially for newer fields like IT that are too fresh to know what the benefits of a union can offer.