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Some would say it's simply that cognitive decline due to aging makes older people less likely to be able to cut it as a programmer, especially given the higher

Some would say it's simply that cognitive decline due to aging makes older people less likely to be able to cut it as a programmer, especially given the higher rate of change in the field placing less emphasis on crystalized intelligence and more on adaptability compared to other fields.

diego_moita 8y ago
> Some would say it's [...] cognitive decline due to aging And I say that this assumption without evidence is a textbook example of a prejudice. Therefore, those "some" are bigots but the good news is they'll stop being it in a few decades, when they'll become the target of this very same bigotry.
- jimmaswell 8y ago
  An individual can easily remain capable into late age, but it's not evidence of age discrimination if mostly young people work at/apply to some positions. Here's some evidence of cognitive decline: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/
  - millstone 8y ago
    You just cited "mostly young people work at some positions" as evidence against age discrimination.
  - howard941 8y ago
    Skimming, that is an interesting article. I feel more productive in my newfound dotage than I was in my twenties. Nevertheless I suppose the data don't lie, do they? Or mislead? > Results from three methods of estimating retest effects in this project,... converge on a conclusion that some aspects of age-related cognitive decline begin in healthy educated adults when they are in their 20s and 30s. If you (and I hope you do) live well beyond your 20s and 30s I hope you'll remember that getting fucked by ageism is real and unavoidable if you work for the man in this industry.
    - jimmaswell 8y ago
      For my anecdote, being in my mid 20s I feel a bit less sharp and with less energy compared to 5 years ago.
Analemma_ 8y ago
And those who say that would be full of shit. We have doctors, lawyers, judges, scientists, etc. all remaining productive and employable late in life, and those fields also see change that you have to stay on top of. The ageism in programming is a desire to avoid workers who have experience to see through the “work 100-hour weeks and you’ll get rich!” propaganda, and this explanation is nothing but a fig leaf.
- JamesBarney 8y ago
  I don't think those jobs change nearly as much as software. Winforms development on VSS/windows and react/node.js work on github/AWS have far less in common than what an allergist was doing 10 years ago vs today.
  - Xixi 8y ago
    There are new medicine/procedures/tests coming out all the time, we (as software engineers) are just not aware of it. On the other hand is winforms development that different from react/node.js? On the surface it is very different, but good UI principles -which I argue is what truly matters- didn't change all that much, if at all.
    - copperx 8y ago
      I would venture to say that 90% of what doctors learn in med school does not get outdated. That 10% that changes, at least for non-research doctors, is just about new treatments, new drugs, new protocols and algorithms for certain diagnoses, especially the ones that weren't treatable to begin with. A doctor in her 20's will treat 80% of the diseases in the same way when she's 70. Cognitive decline will not make a doctor less effective. Crystallized intelligence is valued. The theory that you learn as you work towards your CS degree does not get outdated either, but most of what you use in the average software engineering job is not about theory. It requires knowing the latest languages, frameworks, and practices. These things change every six months. Even if you are not moving to a new language, the language is evolving. Even if you keep using the same framework, the API will change. Crystallized intelligence here is mostly useless.
onlydeadheroes 8y ago
It's ok, you can have all the JS development to yourselves.

diego_moita 8y ago

> Some would say it's [...] cognitive decline due to aging And I say that this assumption without evidence is a textbook example of a prejudice. Therefore, those "some" are bigots but the good news is they'll stop being it in a few decades, when they'll become the target of this very same bigotry.

jimmaswell 8y ago
An individual can easily remain capable into late age, but it's not evidence of age discrimination if mostly young people work at/apply to some positions. Here's some evidence of cognitive decline: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/
- millstone 8y ago
  You just cited "mostly young people work at some positions" as evidence against age discrimination.
- howard941 8y ago
  Skimming, that is an interesting article. I feel more productive in my newfound dotage than I was in my twenties. Nevertheless I suppose the data don't lie, do they? Or mislead? > Results from three methods of estimating retest effects in this project,... converge on a conclusion that some aspects of age-related cognitive decline begin in healthy educated adults when they are in their 20s and 30s. If you (and I hope you do) live well beyond your 20s and 30s I hope you'll remember that getting fucked by ageism is real and unavoidable if you work for the man in this industry.
  - jimmaswell 8y ago
    For my anecdote, being in my mid 20s I feel a bit less sharp and with less energy compared to 5 years ago.

Analemma_ 8y ago

And those who say that would be full of shit. We have doctors, lawyers, judges, scientists, etc. all remaining productive and employable late in life, and those fields also see change that you have to stay on top of. The ageism in programming is a desire to avoid workers who have experience to see through the “work 100-hour weeks and you’ll get rich!” propaganda, and this explanation is nothing but a fig leaf.

JamesBarney 8y ago
I don't think those jobs change nearly as much as software. Winforms development on VSS/windows and react/node.js work on github/AWS have far less in common than what an allergist was doing 10 years ago vs today.
- Xixi 8y ago
  There are new medicine/procedures/tests coming out all the time, we (as software engineers) are just not aware of it. On the other hand is winforms development that different from react/node.js? On the surface it is very different, but good UI principles -which I argue is what truly matters- didn't change all that much, if at all.
  - copperx 8y ago
    I would venture to say that 90% of what doctors learn in med school does not get outdated. That 10% that changes, at least for non-research doctors, is just about new treatments, new drugs, new protocols and algorithms for certain diagnoses, especially the ones that weren't treatable to begin with. A doctor in her 20's will treat 80% of the diseases in the same way when she's 70. Cognitive decline will not make a doctor less effective. Crystallized intelligence is valued. The theory that you learn as you work towards your CS degree does not get outdated either, but most of what you use in the average software engineering job is not about theory. It requires knowing the latest languages, frameworks, and practices. These things change every six months. Even if you are not moving to a new language, the language is evolving. Even if you keep using the same framework, the API will change. Crystallized intelligence here is mostly useless.

onlydeadheroes 8y ago

It's ok, you can have all the JS development to yourselves.