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I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hi

I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hire Australians because of the AA Bill, so I’m holding it off for now. The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. I don’t want to hurt my future employability. On the one hand, if I had my citizenship then I could vote at the next elections, but on the other hand the AA Bill has been supported by all major Australian parties so I feel powerless.

jacques_chester 8y ago
Look. It's a stupid bill. So garishly stupid that it can blind a boulder. So vapidly moronic that bits of ooze collected by clams are more intelligent. It's so bad that astronauts on the ISS passing over Canberra need to shield their heads with lead so the radioactive idiocy doesn't fry them. But don't kid yourself: Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. I would not pass it up lightly. I was born to it and I am enormously grateful to have it.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > But don't kid yourself: Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. Relative to what other citizenship?
  - jacques_chester 8y ago
    It depends on your criteria. But it's a wealthy country with a high standard of living, relatively safe and stable, with well-established democratic and legal systems, has relatively low corruption, safety nets for health and welfare, subsidised education and if you avoid the crocodiles it can be very pleasant in parts.
    - microcolonel 8y ago
      > well-established democratic and legal systems Given the topic at hand, this doesn't seem like a distinct strength of Australia, unless you're coming from a despotic regime or recently New Zealand.
      - roganartu 8y ago
        I think it's important to have some context here though. I can't speak for the parent commenter, but I am Australian and how I interpreted it was that our democratic system is reasonably mature, functional, and relatively free from large scale corruption. I think the last point is the big one. Political lobbying, while still a thing, isn't as rampant as in the US for example. Bad power-grab legislation like the bill being discussed still happen, as do bad laws as a result of general incompetence, but in my experience there are far less laws that happen as a result of corporate lobbying. A good example is the Australian tax system. There is a government provided website for filing your individual income tax return. For the vast majority of people it is prefilled, takes about 5 mins, and it's also free for everyone. Contrast this with the US where companies like Intuit lobby specifically to keep the tax code complex and to require returns prepared online be submitted through one of them so they can collect their fees.
        microcolonel 8y ago
        > Bad power-grab legislation like the bill being discussed still happen, as do bad laws as a result of general incompetence, but in my experience there are far less laws that happen as a result of corporate lobbying. I think I care a bit less about corporate welfare lobbying than infringements on my civil rights. You can fix corporate lobbying if you have real civil rights, but if you don't have the right to communicate privately, the corporations can literally just stop you from organizing, with the littlest nudges (just make the messages of dissent mysteriously not deliver). It might not even be illegal.
    - perilunar 8y ago
      Also, Australia ranks well above the USA on most indices of economic freedom. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mastazi 8y ago
  > Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. Getting where I am now (Australian permanent resident) has been the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. It included working casual night-shift jobs while studying to get a uni degree during the day (having an Australian degree improves your score towards a skilled visa). For a long period I have been separated from my wife and daughter due to visa complications, it was heartbreaking. In addition I had to give up my role as a start-up co-founder (because in order to maximise your skilled visa score, it's better if you are an employee at an Australian-based company - the start-up I was involved with was legally based overseas). I haven't even visited my home country (Italy) since 2013, I am still in touch with family and some friends but the reality is that the connection to Italy is slowly fading away and I am long past that phase where you start to call your adoptive country "home". Becoming an Australian citizen has been the main goal of my life in the past 8 years so I'm not going to pass on it lightly. At the moment, however, I'm taking my time to think about it.
  - Jedi72 8y ago
    One more piece of Anecdata, Im an Australian who has decided to go for US citizenship, for several reasons but all basically due to a continuous disregard for personal liberties by our government. Australians love being told what to do, seems like 90% of the population are very satisfied to be servants of the ruling class and aspire to nothing else. Edit: I replied to the wrong comment, meant to reply to the one above this one.
    - chris_wot 8y ago
      Good luck getting health care.
      - g45y45 8y ago
        Any australian working in the US that is able to obtain PR or citizenship likely has a well paid job that provides health insurance. While I feel for the folks in the US without coverage, lack of access to affordable health care does not really apply to employed, skilled immigrants. In my experience US health care is the best on the planet, its also the most expensive. From my perspective, US health care is way above the quality of healthcare in Australia. Price, not so much...
KorematsuFred 8y ago
Is this true ? There is no way I am hiring an Australian citizen then.
- shitloadofbooks 8y ago
  The answer is "it's complicated." See https://github.com/alfiedotwtf/AABillFAQ https://github.com/alfiedotwtf/AABillFAQ
  - mastazi 8y ago
    Thank you for providing a better source - reality is more nuanced than what most news outlets want you to believe, but unfortunately hiring practices are influenced by public discourse, and unfortunately the prevalent message out there is "don't hire Australians"
    - manigandham 8y ago
      No, business hiring is influenced by risk and value. Having any of this language is a risk that's just not worth it, especially because of how ambiguous and surreptitious this is. It's up to the citizens and their government to rectify such poor legislation.
    - opportune 8y ago
      It might be cheaper foor a business to just not hire Australians than to hire a lawyer and dedicate bizdev time to figuring out the intricacies and nuance
      - viraptor 8y ago
        It is not cheaper than getting sued for discrimination. Which would be easily proven in many cases, seeing how many people are more afraid of a potential issue with another country's intelligence agencies then of publicly posting about their plans to violate their own employment laws.
BLKNSLVR 8y ago
Good news: https://www.computerworld.com.au/article/659332/encryption-legislation-labors-husic-commits-to-changing-terrible-laws/ https://www.computerworld.com.au/article/659332/encryption-l... Bad news: This is still the words of a politician, so it's likely they're relatively empty and the changes may be trivial and won't address the fundamental distrust it has sown in Australian-developed and / or operated technologies.
- BigUps 8y ago
  This comes after Labor allowed the bill through in the first place: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/labor-backdown-federal-government-to-pass-greater-surveillance/10591944 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/labor-backdown-federa... So definitely take it with a grain of salt.
otachack 8y ago
There's so much ambiguity in this, though. Can't the complying Australian employee simply nudge his/her coworker and say "hey, patch this later" and then it's just a game of back and forth with the Australian government not having their way in the end?
- cma 8y ago
  Australia could offer a reward to employees that ratted out employees that did that. Then other countries with have to outlaw accepting the reward.
- jacques_chester 8y ago
  I wouldn't advise this. Defying or subverting a lawful order can itself be a crime and you can bet the Crown Prosecutor and the Judge have seen far more attempts than you have.
  - Mirioron 8y ago
    Can you imagine what would happen if there was a public case where a person got 5 years for letting the world know that the Australian government tried to force them to backdoor software? You don't really even need proof, because if he's sent to prison then his claim is true. Right now the risk from Australia is theoretical. After that there could actually be bans from other governments about using software made in Australia.
    - jacques_chester 8y ago
      I imagine the person would go to prison for up to 5 years and the government would chest-thump about Being Tough On Baddies. If anything they would like it to happen. If being exposed as a stupid law was enough to scare off the major parties, it wouldn't have been made law in the first place.
- mastazi 8y ago
  There are many scenarios where the Australian Government ends up not having it their way. For example a very likely scenario is: your commit which contains a backdoor goes to code review and then someone asks you "what is this". In theory you would say that you are not allowed to explain for legal reasons. Yet that commit is not going to be deployed. (edited for clarity)
tomlu 8y ago
I have Australian citizenship, but fortunately I live abroad so I would just refuse. Good luck with that extradition numbnuts :)
- mrspeaker 8y ago
  Hmmm... that sounds exactly what someone coerced to introduce a backdoor would say!
TallGuyShort 8y ago
How confident are my fellow American citizens that the American government doesn't effectively have the same power? I mean if someone showed up at your house in a black Suburban with an official-looking letter that seemed like a court order that you provide them with a backdoor and threatening you with all manner of charges if you go public. How confident are you you could walk away cleanly from that any other way?
- kevingadd 8y ago
  The American government does theoretically have this power, but it's not like any major player is refusing to do business with Americans yet because the downside to that is massive. It's possible it could come to that eventually. Australia is a target for retribution here because the policy is newer and they're a smaller player.
  - mr_toad 8y ago
    > The American government does theoretically have this power So far they haven’t been able to enforce it, at least when challenged. And there are organisations that prohibit the use of US based cloud providers.
  - ENGNR 8y ago
    In the USA at least you could take it to the supreme court, Australians don't have a bill of rights
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    Saying "it is unfair I can't get away with crime too" is not a defense. And many in fact /are/ already refusing to do so. Witness many privacy laws which explicitly bar storage of citizen data in US jurisdictions - granted some have cynical "so they can access it" motivations. It was why Microsoft of all corporations, one which has been enough of a toady to be caught with NSA in variable names sued hard to demand warrant protection.
- BigJono 8y ago
  Well I assume the first thing you do if you cop a notice is talk to a lawyer, and if the government's request is illegal, the American lawyer will tell you so. Since this legislation, the Australian lawyer is going to have to tell you to just do it.
ezoe 8y ago
If you concern that, I would leave the Australia if I were you. Being under the jurisdiction of Australia is already a huge threat.
ggm 8y ago
The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. As I read it, the law requires warrants and court enforcement. I don't think you can be required to backdoor code in secret or held to account by the security agencies not to inform your employer. I would be very surprised if tat was legal and uncontestable. I do expect you can be informed by your employer you have to backdoor code. I do not expect you can have an extra-territorial obligation placed on your work conducted outside Australia. If you are working inside australia remotely I think its complex. I think the EFF should fund your case. Take citizenship and help fight this.
- crawrey 8y ago
  > I don't think you can be required to backdoor code in secret or held to account by the security agencies not to inform your employer. This law gave the government the power to do just that. Details of implementing a backdoor in secret is close to impossible, as any developer would know. There was a post[1] made by "Alfie John" (alfiedotwtf) that outlines a scenario in which a developer is presented with a Technical Capability Notice (TCN). > I do not expect you can have an extra-territorial obligation placed on your work conducted outside Australia. If you are working inside australia remotely I think its complex. Australian citizens, regardless of their location are obliged to comply with these requests. If you are presented with a TAR, TAN or TCN, you have the option to seek legal council in private or risk fines of up to AUD$7.3 million. You risk imprisonment if you reveal details about the notice to anyone other than those who are included in the notice or to seek legal council (this is an exception within the law). [1] https://twitter.com/alfiedotwtf/status/1070047303275175936 https://twitter.com/alfiedotwtf/status/1070047303275175936
  - josephg 8y ago
    Could you reasonably argue that you can’t implement this feature without your boss finding out? Let’s say I work at a place that requires mandatory peer code review. I won’t be able to slip something by my (non Australian) reviewer. Surely I could reasonably argue that the government’s request to insert a backdoor without telling anyone is impossible to comply with. How would the government be able to verify my claim that that’s the case?
incompatible 8y ago
Australian law generally affects residents of Australia, not citizens. Are you sure they couldn't coerce you already?
- mastazi 8y ago
  The main point for me is not whether or not they can actually coerce me, but whether or not this is going to affect my employability. I have seen in various news articles reporting that, apparently, companies based in the USA and EU are currently wary of hiring Australian developers because of this law. Regarding your point, my understanding (I'm not a lawyer so I may be wrong) is that, in general, the law of a country applies to residents only while they are residing in the country, and it ends being applicable after they leave the country. For citizens this is certainly not the case, e.g. even though I haven't been to Italy since 2013, as a citizen I still have some rights and obligations.
  - incompatible 8y ago
    Still, it's rare for citizens to be affected if they are outside the country. The relevant legislation seems to be https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2018B00180 https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2018B00180, it doesn't contain the word "citizen". The text is actually neutral on such questions. In theory, I think it could be applied to anyone in the world, regardless of citizenship or residence. However, in practice people with no connection to Australia would be likely to just ignore it. A law enforcement officer (or another person on the officer’s behalf) may apply to an eligible Judge or to a nominated AAT member for an order (the assistance order) requiring a specified person to provide any information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the law enforcement officer to do one or more of the following:... You have a point that they'd have more leverage against Australian citizens, especially if they don't have alternative citizenships (so that they need passport renewals) or intend to travel to Australia in future.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Do you mean tech companies in Australia refusing to hire Australian citizens? Or foreign companies? Because the first is very illegal. If your home country allows dual citizenship, it doesn't seem like a problem for getting a job outside Australia. If it's not a government job where they'll do security checks, just don't disclose your dual citizenship. I hold dual citizenship, and not that my company has asked or would ask me if I am, I could easily say that I'm not and there isn't a lot they can do. Even governments struggle to determine if someone is a citizen of a foreign country, as we discovered with the dual citizenship debacle in parliament. If your home country doesn't allow dual citizenship, depending on the risk you're willing to take, you can still become a dual citizen and not notify your home country. Either way, the benefits of being legally entitled to live in Australia for eternity, as well as the right to participate in the democratic process, outweigh any potential downsides to becoming an Australian citizen, although I've still for a few more years to wait for that.
- mastazi 8y ago
  The Australian tech sector is not that large, an ill-conceived law like this one could potentially worsen the job prospects here, to the point that one may consider working overseas. I'm not saying that it's likely, but at the same time it's not impossible. So, yes, I was thinking primarily about foreign companies; (by the way, your argument in relation to Australian companies, "Because the first is very illegal", is not bullet-proof, because there are many things in this world that are illegal, and yet they happen). My home country allows dual citizenship but I don't think that it would be so easy as you say to withhold this crucial piece of information from an employer: given that about half of my CV is made of positions I've held in Australia, I believe it's not that unlikely that a prospective employer may ask about my citizenship status. Anyway, I haven't taken any decision yet, I'm just basically taking my time. I agree with you about participating in the democratic process, when I evaluate pros and cons of becoming a citizen, that's the biggest pro in my mind. Being entitled to live in Australia, on the other hand, is not a big factor in this decision, because I already have a permanent visa that lets me do that.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
Tsubasachan 8y ago
JC and the mainstream media is crying about Huawei and Kasperky but this gets through uncontested? Do as I say not as I do.
fixermark 8y ago
Wow, so Australian law allows them to basically impress any citizen into espionage? That's buck-wild.
angry_octet 8y ago
Actually you can be compelled whether you are a citizen or not, you just have to be in the country. So unless you have to give up your prior citizenship there is no reason not to proceed. So please apply, and then maybe one day you can vote against those who support it.
balabaster 8y ago
So, how exactly would anyone get a back door past code review? There are practices and processes that make this infeasible regardless of the Australian Government's belief they can coerce anyone. Every company I've felt have been worth working for in the past 10 years have had rigorous code review practices that would obstruct my ability to integrate any code without oversight. So... how?
- jammygit 8y ago
  Why wouldn't they just issue the order to two developers? That seems to trivially solve the difficulty since the second code reviews for the first

jacques_chester 8y ago

Look. It's a stupid bill. So garishly stupid that it can blind a boulder. So vapidly moronic that bits of ooze collected by clams are more intelligent. It's so bad that astronauts on the ISS passing over Canberra need to shield their heads with lead so the radioactive idiocy doesn't fry them. But don't kid yourself: Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. I would not pass it up lightly. I was born to it and I am enormously grateful to have it.

microcolonel 8y ago
> But don't kid yourself: Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. Relative to what other citizenship?
- jacques_chester 8y ago
  It depends on your criteria. But it's a wealthy country with a high standard of living, relatively safe and stable, with well-established democratic and legal systems, has relatively low corruption, safety nets for health and welfare, subsidised education and if you avoid the crocodiles it can be very pleasant in parts.
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    > well-established democratic and legal systems Given the topic at hand, this doesn't seem like a distinct strength of Australia, unless you're coming from a despotic regime or recently New Zealand.
    - roganartu 8y ago
      I think it's important to have some context here though. I can't speak for the parent commenter, but I am Australian and how I interpreted it was that our democratic system is reasonably mature, functional, and relatively free from large scale corruption. I think the last point is the big one. Political lobbying, while still a thing, isn't as rampant as in the US for example. Bad power-grab legislation like the bill being discussed still happen, as do bad laws as a result of general incompetence, but in my experience there are far less laws that happen as a result of corporate lobbying. A good example is the Australian tax system. There is a government provided website for filing your individual income tax return. For the vast majority of people it is prefilled, takes about 5 mins, and it's also free for everyone. Contrast this with the US where companies like Intuit lobby specifically to keep the tax code complex and to require returns prepared online be submitted through one of them so they can collect their fees.
      - microcolonel 8y ago
        > Bad power-grab legislation like the bill being discussed still happen, as do bad laws as a result of general incompetence, but in my experience there are far less laws that happen as a result of corporate lobbying. I think I care a bit less about corporate welfare lobbying than infringements on my civil rights. You can fix corporate lobbying if you have real civil rights, but if you don't have the right to communicate privately, the corporations can literally just stop you from organizing, with the littlest nudges (just make the messages of dissent mysteriously not deliver). It might not even be illegal.
  - perilunar 8y ago
    Also, Australia ranks well above the USA on most indices of economic freedom. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mastazi 8y ago
> Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. Getting where I am now (Australian permanent resident) has been the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. It included working casual night-shift jobs while studying to get a uni degree during the day (having an Australian degree improves your score towards a skilled visa). For a long period I have been separated from my wife and daughter due to visa complications, it was heartbreaking. In addition I had to give up my role as a start-up co-founder (because in order to maximise your skilled visa score, it's better if you are an employee at an Australian-based company - the start-up I was involved with was legally based overseas). I haven't even visited my home country (Italy) since 2013, I am still in touch with family and some friends but the reality is that the connection to Italy is slowly fading away and I am long past that phase where you start to call your adoptive country "home". Becoming an Australian citizen has been the main goal of my life in the past 8 years so I'm not going to pass on it lightly. At the moment, however, I'm taking my time to think about it.
- Jedi72 8y ago
  One more piece of Anecdata, Im an Australian who has decided to go for US citizenship, for several reasons but all basically due to a continuous disregard for personal liberties by our government. Australians love being told what to do, seems like 90% of the population are very satisfied to be servants of the ruling class and aspire to nothing else. Edit: I replied to the wrong comment, meant to reply to the one above this one.
  - chris_wot 8y ago
    Good luck getting health care.
    - g45y45 8y ago
      Any australian working in the US that is able to obtain PR or citizenship likely has a well paid job that provides health insurance. While I feel for the folks in the US without coverage, lack of access to affordable health care does not really apply to employed, skilled immigrants. In my experience US health care is the best on the planet, its also the most expensive. From my perspective, US health care is way above the quality of healthcare in Australia. Price, not so much...

KorematsuFred 8y ago

Is this true ? There is no way I am hiring an Australian citizen then.

shitloadofbooks 8y ago
The answer is "it's complicated." See https://github.com/alfiedotwtf/AABillFAQ https://github.com/alfiedotwtf/AABillFAQ
- mastazi 8y ago
  Thank you for providing a better source - reality is more nuanced than what most news outlets want you to believe, but unfortunately hiring practices are influenced by public discourse, and unfortunately the prevalent message out there is "don't hire Australians"
  - manigandham 8y ago
    No, business hiring is influenced by risk and value. Having any of this language is a risk that's just not worth it, especially because of how ambiguous and surreptitious this is. It's up to the citizens and their government to rectify such poor legislation.
  - opportune 8y ago
    It might be cheaper foor a business to just not hire Australians than to hire a lawyer and dedicate bizdev time to figuring out the intricacies and nuance
    - viraptor 8y ago
      It is not cheaper than getting sued for discrimination. Which would be easily proven in many cases, seeing how many people are more afraid of a potential issue with another country's intelligence agencies then of publicly posting about their plans to violate their own employment laws.

BLKNSLVR 8y ago

Good news: https://www.computerworld.com.au/article/659332/encryption-legislation-labors-husic-commits-to-changing-terrible-laws/ https://www.computerworld.com.au/article/659332/encryption-l... Bad news: This is still the words of a politician, so it's likely they're relatively empty and the changes may be trivial and won't address the fundamental distrust it has sown in Australian-developed and / or operated technologies.

BigUps 8y ago
This comes after Labor allowed the bill through in the first place: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/labor-backdown-federal-government-to-pass-greater-surveillance/10591944 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/labor-backdown-federa... So definitely take it with a grain of salt.

otachack 8y ago

There's so much ambiguity in this, though. Can't the complying Australian employee simply nudge his/her coworker and say "hey, patch this later" and then it's just a game of back and forth with the Australian government not having their way in the end?

cma 8y ago
Australia could offer a reward to employees that ratted out employees that did that. Then other countries with have to outlaw accepting the reward.
jacques_chester 8y ago
I wouldn't advise this. Defying or subverting a lawful order can itself be a crime and you can bet the Crown Prosecutor and the Judge have seen far more attempts than you have.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  Can you imagine what would happen if there was a public case where a person got 5 years for letting the world know that the Australian government tried to force them to backdoor software? You don't really even need proof, because if he's sent to prison then his claim is true. Right now the risk from Australia is theoretical. After that there could actually be bans from other governments about using software made in Australia.
  - jacques_chester 8y ago
    I imagine the person would go to prison for up to 5 years and the government would chest-thump about Being Tough On Baddies. If anything they would like it to happen. If being exposed as a stupid law was enough to scare off the major parties, it wouldn't have been made law in the first place.
mastazi 8y ago
There are many scenarios where the Australian Government ends up not having it their way. For example a very likely scenario is: your commit which contains a backdoor goes to code review and then someone asks you "what is this". In theory you would say that you are not allowed to explain for legal reasons. Yet that commit is not going to be deployed. (edited for clarity)

tomlu 8y ago

I have Australian citizenship, but fortunately I live abroad so I would just refuse. Good luck with that extradition numbnuts :)

mrspeaker 8y ago
Hmmm... that sounds exactly what someone coerced to introduce a backdoor would say!

TallGuyShort 8y ago

How confident are my fellow American citizens that the American government doesn't effectively have the same power? I mean if someone showed up at your house in a black Suburban with an official-looking letter that seemed like a court order that you provide them with a backdoor and threatening you with all manner of charges if you go public. How confident are you you could walk away cleanly from that any other way?

kevingadd 8y ago
The American government does theoretically have this power, but it's not like any major player is refusing to do business with Americans yet because the downside to that is massive. It's possible it could come to that eventually. Australia is a target for retribution here because the policy is newer and they're a smaller player.
- mr_toad 8y ago
  > The American government does theoretically have this power So far they haven’t been able to enforce it, at least when challenged. And there are organisations that prohibit the use of US based cloud providers.
- ENGNR 8y ago
  In the USA at least you could take it to the supreme court, Australians don't have a bill of rights
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Saying "it is unfair I can't get away with crime too" is not a defense. And many in fact /are/ already refusing to do so. Witness many privacy laws which explicitly bar storage of citizen data in US jurisdictions - granted some have cynical "so they can access it" motivations. It was why Microsoft of all corporations, one which has been enough of a toady to be caught with NSA in variable names sued hard to demand warrant protection.
BigJono 8y ago
Well I assume the first thing you do if you cop a notice is talk to a lawyer, and if the government's request is illegal, the American lawyer will tell you so. Since this legislation, the Australian lawyer is going to have to tell you to just do it.

ezoe 8y ago

If you concern that, I would leave the Australia if I were you. Being under the jurisdiction of Australia is already a huge threat.

ggm 8y ago

The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. As I read it, the law requires warrants and court enforcement. I don't think you can be required to backdoor code in secret or held to account by the security agencies not to inform your employer. I would be very surprised if tat was legal and uncontestable. I do expect you can be informed by your employer you have to backdoor code. I do not expect you can have an extra-territorial obligation placed on your work conducted outside Australia. If you are working inside australia remotely I think its complex. I think the EFF should fund your case. Take citizenship and help fight this.

crawrey 8y ago
> I don't think you can be required to backdoor code in secret or held to account by the security agencies not to inform your employer. This law gave the government the power to do just that. Details of implementing a backdoor in secret is close to impossible, as any developer would know. There was a post[1] made by "Alfie John" (alfiedotwtf) that outlines a scenario in which a developer is presented with a Technical Capability Notice (TCN). > I do not expect you can have an extra-territorial obligation placed on your work conducted outside Australia. If you are working inside australia remotely I think its complex. Australian citizens, regardless of their location are obliged to comply with these requests. If you are presented with a TAR, TAN or TCN, you have the option to seek legal council in private or risk fines of up to AUD$7.3 million. You risk imprisonment if you reveal details about the notice to anyone other than those who are included in the notice or to seek legal council (this is an exception within the law). [1] https://twitter.com/alfiedotwtf/status/1070047303275175936 https://twitter.com/alfiedotwtf/status/1070047303275175936
- josephg 8y ago
  Could you reasonably argue that you can’t implement this feature without your boss finding out? Let’s say I work at a place that requires mandatory peer code review. I won’t be able to slip something by my (non Australian) reviewer. Surely I could reasonably argue that the government’s request to insert a backdoor without telling anyone is impossible to comply with. How would the government be able to verify my claim that that’s the case?

incompatible 8y ago

Australian law generally affects residents of Australia, not citizens. Are you sure they couldn't coerce you already?

mastazi 8y ago
The main point for me is not whether or not they can actually coerce me, but whether or not this is going to affect my employability. I have seen in various news articles reporting that, apparently, companies based in the USA and EU are currently wary of hiring Australian developers because of this law. Regarding your point, my understanding (I'm not a lawyer so I may be wrong) is that, in general, the law of a country applies to residents only while they are residing in the country, and it ends being applicable after they leave the country. For citizens this is certainly not the case, e.g. even though I haven't been to Italy since 2013, as a citizen I still have some rights and obligations.
- incompatible 8y ago
  Still, it's rare for citizens to be affected if they are outside the country. The relevant legislation seems to be https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2018B00180 https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2018B00180, it doesn't contain the word "citizen". The text is actually neutral on such questions. In theory, I think it could be applied to anyone in the world, regardless of citizenship or residence. However, in practice people with no connection to Australia would be likely to just ignore it. A law enforcement officer (or another person on the officer’s behalf) may apply to an eligible Judge or to a nominated AAT member for an order (the assistance order) requiring a specified person to provide any information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the law enforcement officer to do one or more of the following:... You have a point that they'd have more leverage against Australian citizens, especially if they don't have alternative citizenships (so that they need passport renewals) or intend to travel to Australia in future.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

Do you mean tech companies in Australia refusing to hire Australian citizens? Or foreign companies? Because the first is very illegal. If your home country allows dual citizenship, it doesn't seem like a problem for getting a job outside Australia. If it's not a government job where they'll do security checks, just don't disclose your dual citizenship. I hold dual citizenship, and not that my company has asked or would ask me if I am, I could easily say that I'm not and there isn't a lot they can do. Even governments struggle to determine if someone is a citizen of a foreign country, as we discovered with the dual citizenship debacle in parliament. If your home country doesn't allow dual citizenship, depending on the risk you're willing to take, you can still become a dual citizen and not notify your home country. Either way, the benefits of being legally entitled to live in Australia for eternity, as well as the right to participate in the democratic process, outweigh any potential downsides to becoming an Australian citizen, although I've still for a few more years to wait for that.

mastazi 8y ago
The Australian tech sector is not that large, an ill-conceived law like this one could potentially worsen the job prospects here, to the point that one may consider working overseas. I'm not saying that it's likely, but at the same time it's not impossible. So, yes, I was thinking primarily about foreign companies; (by the way, your argument in relation to Australian companies, "Because the first is very illegal", is not bullet-proof, because there are many things in this world that are illegal, and yet they happen). My home country allows dual citizenship but I don't think that it would be so easy as you say to withhold this crucial piece of information from an employer: given that about half of my CV is made of positions I've held in Australia, I believe it's not that unlikely that a prospective employer may ask about my citizenship status. Anyway, I haven't taken any decision yet, I'm just basically taking my time. I agree with you about participating in the democratic process, when I evaluate pros and cons of becoming a citizen, that's the biggest pro in my mind. Being entitled to live in Australia, on the other hand, is not a big factor in this decision, because I already have a permanent visa that lets me do that.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago

Tsubasachan 8y ago

JC and the mainstream media is crying about Huawei and Kasperky but this gets through uncontested? Do as I say not as I do.

fixermark 8y ago

Wow, so Australian law allows them to basically impress any citizen into espionage? That's buck-wild.

angry_octet 8y ago

Actually you can be compelled whether you are a citizen or not, you just have to be in the country. So unless you have to give up your prior citizenship there is no reason not to proceed. So please apply, and then maybe one day you can vote against those who support it.

balabaster 8y ago

So, how exactly would anyone get a back door past code review? There are practices and processes that make this infeasible regardless of the Australian Government's belief they can coerce anyone. Every company I've felt have been worth working for in the past 10 years have had rigorous code review practices that would obstruct my ability to integrate any code without oversight. So... how?

jammygit 8y ago
Why wouldn't they just issue the order to two developers? That seems to trivially solve the difficulty since the second code reviews for the first