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Nice to see someone taking the Chinese foothold in SV seriously. I've also heard people who go to work for Chinese companies are then blacklisted from US Govern

Nice to see someone taking the Chinese foothold in SV seriously. I've also heard people who go to work for Chinese companies are then blacklisted from US Government defense- and intel-related work for 1 year. Can anyone confirm?

daniel-cussen 8y ago
> blacklisted from US Government defense- and intel-related work for 1 year While I don't have the knowledge to confirm or deny this, I find it pretty lenient of the US not only because it's only a year, but also because it's open enough about it. Keeping in mind Aurora and the Lockheed Martin F35 hack, and that national security opposing a superpower is not a problem that solves itself, I find it does not undermine American values or freedoms.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  There are similar longer sanctions if you have a Chinese spouse and such.
  - sneak 8y ago
    How is this not naked racism? Or do race-based anti-discrimination laws simply not apply to some government jobs?
    - lmz 8y ago
      It's national origin based, not race based.
    - Kadin 8y ago
      It's not a question of whether you have a Chinese spouse; that's not correct, and that would be racist. It's a question of whether or not you or your spouse have ongoing relationships with Chinese nationals and could, as a result, be subject to influence by the Chinese government. If you were married to someone who, say, had fled China and had no connection to anyone there, that's likely to be fine. If you're married to someone who has a whole extended family back in China and visits them four times a year, well, that's pretty obviously a potential vulnerability that's going to be considered as part of a background investigation. It's not a question of ethnicity or race, it's a question of having avenues of influence by a foreign government.
      - sneak 8y ago
        That’s still just a matter of race, so long as Americans and Chinese people are not entirely free to go live and work in either country without restriction. It’s just a proxy for race. If you are born in a China, of course your extended family is going to be under the control of the Chinese government. Same for Americans in America. Don’t get it twisted. It’s just racism.
        d4mi3n 8y ago
        I understand your issue with the policy, and I think this is a fine stance to take in cases where relations between two countries are good. Sadly, that is not the case between the US and China. Focusing on race here completely ignores the geopolitical situation. This issue is also completely moot in any case where the influence of a foreign power isn't a concern, as many others have mentioned. I'd also refute the idea that nationality is a proxy for race, especially for a country as large and diverse as China. China is _far_ from the only nation with an Asian populace--many of the ethnicities in China can be found in neighboring countries and across Asia.
        yourbandsucks 8y ago
        According to US census categories, Chinese are the same race as Indians, Pakistanis, Turkmen, Filipinos and Hawaiians. "Asian and Pacific islander". The residents of those various places, as I understand things, see it differently.
      - yourbandsucks 8y ago
        I mean, that's a practical concern and I hear you, but it's still ethnic profiling. You're talking about judging people for having family. I feel like the reception would be different if we were talking about "woke-friendly" demographics.
        Macross8299 8y ago
        Is it ethnic profiling though? A thought experiment is to imagine a country nearly identical to the US in ethnic composition, culture, size, GDP, etc but is rivals with the US on the same level China is. If you were going to apply for a security clearance in the USA and your spouse and their family was from this rival bizarroUSA, I think you'd be subject to similar scrutiny. Just a question of where your (or your spouse's) national loyalties lie.
    - specialp 8y ago
      I didn't think being from China was a racial condition. What if it were a Russian spouse? Same thing. In national security background checks they are concerned about connections to foreign governments. Yes it is discrimination on foreign ties such as travel, family, or dual citizenship.
    - bnjms 8y ago
      How is it naked racism? I doubt this is a race based restriction so much as a nationality based one. I would be shocked if it effected anyone with a spouse of second generation or later.
      - sneak 8y ago
        Nationality is a proxy for race. Discrimination based on nationality is discrimination based on race. Just like race, one has no say in where they were born. You don’t get to arbitrarily change it if you don’t like the one that was assigned to you by the people with the most arms in the region in which you happen to be born.
        empath75 8y ago
        So presumably you believe that the Chinese government should give Americans jobs where they have access to Chinese secrets?
        sneak 8y ago
        Governments derive power from the governed. I have yet to understand an explanation that justifies the government keeping secrets from the governed.
    - Rebelgecko 8y ago
      A few things. It's based on nation, not race. The government doesn't care if your spouse is a 5th generation Chinese-American, they care if you have close family that is under the influence of a foreign government. It's not an auto-blacklist or anything, you can be born in China and still have a US security clearance. Discriminating based on citizenship status is usually illegal, but US security clearance is typically contingent on being a US citizen. The relevant anti-discrimination laws have an exemption for "national security purposes"
      - sneak 8y ago
        > The relevant anti-discrimination laws have an exemption for "national security purposes" So, the latter: they get a free pass to do racial and national origin discrimination. That was my answer, thank you.
        Rebelgecko 8y ago
        Except it's not racial... It wouldn't matter if your hypothetical Chinese spouse is descended from Han Chinese, Russians, Mongols, Koreans, Tamils, or Marco Polo.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        throwaway8879 8y ago
        It is naive to think that principles and virtues need apply when it comes to national security. There are horrible but difficult things being done right now in every country's intelligence communities to protect the citizens of those countries. Racism has nothing to do with it.
    - empath75 8y ago
      It’s not racism. It’s any foreign government, including allies. They closely scrutinize your connections to foreign nationals. They especially scrutinize people with connections to rivals and adversaries, though.
    - forks25 8y ago
      It sounds like you just don't understand how security clearances work. Its about allegiance to a country. Not your race. If you come to the US from China, revoke your Chinese citizenship, become a US citizen and limit your contact to Chinese citizens, you can get a security clearance. Also a security clearance is not a right.
      - ardy42 8y ago
        > Its about allegiance to a country. Not your race. Also vulnerability to manipulation. So you'll be denied if you're heavily in debt and have a gambling problem, even if you're absolutely loyal and patriotic.
        forks25 8y ago
        It's also about not browsing porn at work... :P You would think people would know better but if you ever get bored and decided to browse clearance rejection decisions you see dozens of people losing their clearance each year because they looked at porn on their work computer.
        tropo 8y ago
        Notable clearance rejection decisions you might enjoy reading: 1. There was a man who loved his dog in a way that one is not supposed to love a dog. 2. There were a couple people who liked crotch ventilation while riding around on a motorcycle.
      - waste_monk 8y ago
        There is a list of countries (Iran and friends, I'm not sure if China was on the list) that if you have or had ever previously held citizenship you are permanently barred from working with ITAR controlled materiel. The reason being that otherwise there's nothing stopping you from renouncing your citizenship, stealing the secrets, and defecting in exchange for being granted citizenship again.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Chinese is used both as a race and citizenship marker, I’m using it here as the latter and not the former. Chinese themselves are hard pressed to come up with a suitable distinction. Eg Uighurs aren’t referred to as Chinese when they emigrate abroad like Han are, even though they are both supposedly Chinese when citizens of the PRC. In that case, if I married a Uighur with a PRC passport, my security clearance would still be in jeapordy, if I married a Chinese (Han) or Uighur with a Canadian passport, there is less of a problem depending on when/if they naturalized.
coolspot 8y ago
Probably shadowbanned, like you will not get you clearance/background check passed by untold reason.
- forks25 8y ago
  Actually when you get denied a clearance they give you a statement of reasons (SOR) in your rejection letter which you have a certain period to rebut. (I think 30 days?)
  - kbos87 8y ago
    Guessing they have a dozen vague reasons on the ready to cite without any further explanations required
    - ardy42 8y ago
      > Guessing they have a dozen vague reasons on the ready to cite without any further explanations required You're wrong. You should read the link forks25 posted to one of the decisions: http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2018/16-04107.h1.pdf http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2018/16-04107.h1.pdf I looked through some others, and here's one where a Chinese person was denied clearance on account of foreign ties: http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/17-03450.a1.pdf http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/17-03450.a1.pdf And here's another were someone was denied for alcoholism: http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/18-00782.a1.pdf http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/18-00782.a1.pdf All the reasoning seems very clear to me.
CharlesColeman 8y ago
> I've also heard people who go to work for Chinese companies are then blacklisted from US Government defense- and intel-related work for 1 year. Can anyone confirm? I definitely want confirmation on this. I could see the security-clearance folks being skeptical of someone who moved to mainland China to work, but not of someone who, say had a job in the US at a Chinese-owned company like AMC [1] or Riot Games [2]. [1] http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/the-biggest-american-companies-now-owned-by-the-chinese/ http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/the-biggest-american-companies... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Games
- forks25 8y ago
  There isn't some hard rule like that. If you have no family connections to china, moved over to join some cool company, then came back a year later because you got bored, your interim clearance would probably be denied, and your background investigation would probably take longer but you could still get a clearance.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jowday 8y ago
A few years ago, I was told by someone knowledgeable about clearances that I shouldn't visit China or Russia if I was interested in getting a clearance or applying for defense or intelligence related work in the next couple of years.
forks25 8y ago
There isn't a blacklist this guy[0] does business in China, Turkey and India and kept his clearance. [0] http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2018/16-04107.h1.pdf http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2018/16-04107.h1.pdf

daniel-cussen 8y ago

> blacklisted from US Government defense- and intel-related work for 1 year While I don't have the knowledge to confirm or deny this, I find it pretty lenient of the US not only because it's only a year, but also because it's open enough about it. Keeping in mind Aurora and the Lockheed Martin F35 hack, and that national security opposing a superpower is not a problem that solves itself, I find it does not undermine American values or freedoms.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
There are similar longer sanctions if you have a Chinese spouse and such.
- sneak 8y ago
  How is this not naked racism? Or do race-based anti-discrimination laws simply not apply to some government jobs?
  - lmz 8y ago
    It's national origin based, not race based.
  - Kadin 8y ago
    It's not a question of whether you have a Chinese spouse; that's not correct, and that would be racist. It's a question of whether or not you or your spouse have ongoing relationships with Chinese nationals and could, as a result, be subject to influence by the Chinese government. If you were married to someone who, say, had fled China and had no connection to anyone there, that's likely to be fine. If you're married to someone who has a whole extended family back in China and visits them four times a year, well, that's pretty obviously a potential vulnerability that's going to be considered as part of a background investigation. It's not a question of ethnicity or race, it's a question of having avenues of influence by a foreign government.
    - sneak 8y ago
      That’s still just a matter of race, so long as Americans and Chinese people are not entirely free to go live and work in either country without restriction. It’s just a proxy for race. If you are born in a China, of course your extended family is going to be under the control of the Chinese government. Same for Americans in America. Don’t get it twisted. It’s just racism.
      - d4mi3n 8y ago
        I understand your issue with the policy, and I think this is a fine stance to take in cases where relations between two countries are good. Sadly, that is not the case between the US and China. Focusing on race here completely ignores the geopolitical situation. This issue is also completely moot in any case where the influence of a foreign power isn't a concern, as many others have mentioned. I'd also refute the idea that nationality is a proxy for race, especially for a country as large and diverse as China. China is _far_ from the only nation with an Asian populace--many of the ethnicities in China can be found in neighboring countries and across Asia.
        yourbandsucks 8y ago
        According to US census categories, Chinese are the same race as Indians, Pakistanis, Turkmen, Filipinos and Hawaiians. "Asian and Pacific islander". The residents of those various places, as I understand things, see it differently.
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      I mean, that's a practical concern and I hear you, but it's still ethnic profiling. You're talking about judging people for having family. I feel like the reception would be different if we were talking about "woke-friendly" demographics.
      - Macross8299 8y ago
        Is it ethnic profiling though? A thought experiment is to imagine a country nearly identical to the US in ethnic composition, culture, size, GDP, etc but is rivals with the US on the same level China is. If you were going to apply for a security clearance in the USA and your spouse and their family was from this rival bizarroUSA, I think you'd be subject to similar scrutiny. Just a question of where your (or your spouse's) national loyalties lie.
  - specialp 8y ago
    I didn't think being from China was a racial condition. What if it were a Russian spouse? Same thing. In national security background checks they are concerned about connections to foreign governments. Yes it is discrimination on foreign ties such as travel, family, or dual citizenship.
  - bnjms 8y ago
    How is it naked racism? I doubt this is a race based restriction so much as a nationality based one. I would be shocked if it effected anyone with a spouse of second generation or later.
    - sneak 8y ago
      Nationality is a proxy for race. Discrimination based on nationality is discrimination based on race. Just like race, one has no say in where they were born. You don’t get to arbitrarily change it if you don’t like the one that was assigned to you by the people with the most arms in the region in which you happen to be born.
      - empath75 8y ago
        So presumably you believe that the Chinese government should give Americans jobs where they have access to Chinese secrets?
        sneak 8y ago
        Governments derive power from the governed. I have yet to understand an explanation that justifies the government keeping secrets from the governed.
  - Rebelgecko 8y ago
    A few things. It's based on nation, not race. The government doesn't care if your spouse is a 5th generation Chinese-American, they care if you have close family that is under the influence of a foreign government. It's not an auto-blacklist or anything, you can be born in China and still have a US security clearance. Discriminating based on citizenship status is usually illegal, but US security clearance is typically contingent on being a US citizen. The relevant anti-discrimination laws have an exemption for "national security purposes"
    - sneak 8y ago
      > The relevant anti-discrimination laws have an exemption for "national security purposes" So, the latter: they get a free pass to do racial and national origin discrimination. That was my answer, thank you.
      - Rebelgecko 8y ago
        Except it's not racial... It wouldn't matter if your hypothetical Chinese spouse is descended from Han Chinese, Russians, Mongols, Koreans, Tamils, or Marco Polo.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - throwaway8879 8y ago
        It is naive to think that principles and virtues need apply when it comes to national security. There are horrible but difficult things being done right now in every country's intelligence communities to protect the citizens of those countries. Racism has nothing to do with it.
  - empath75 8y ago
    It’s not racism. It’s any foreign government, including allies. They closely scrutinize your connections to foreign nationals. They especially scrutinize people with connections to rivals and adversaries, though.
  - forks25 8y ago
    It sounds like you just don't understand how security clearances work. Its about allegiance to a country. Not your race. If you come to the US from China, revoke your Chinese citizenship, become a US citizen and limit your contact to Chinese citizens, you can get a security clearance. Also a security clearance is not a right.
    - ardy42 8y ago
      > Its about allegiance to a country. Not your race. Also vulnerability to manipulation. So you'll be denied if you're heavily in debt and have a gambling problem, even if you're absolutely loyal and patriotic.
      - forks25 8y ago
        It's also about not browsing porn at work... :P You would think people would know better but if you ever get bored and decided to browse clearance rejection decisions you see dozens of people losing their clearance each year because they looked at porn on their work computer.
        tropo 8y ago
        Notable clearance rejection decisions you might enjoy reading: 1. There was a man who loved his dog in a way that one is not supposed to love a dog. 2. There were a couple people who liked crotch ventilation while riding around on a motorcycle.
    - waste_monk 8y ago
      There is a list of countries (Iran and friends, I'm not sure if China was on the list) that if you have or had ever previously held citizenship you are permanently barred from working with ITAR controlled materiel. The reason being that otherwise there's nothing stopping you from renouncing your citizenship, stealing the secrets, and defecting in exchange for being granted citizenship again.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Chinese is used both as a race and citizenship marker, I’m using it here as the latter and not the former. Chinese themselves are hard pressed to come up with a suitable distinction. Eg Uighurs aren’t referred to as Chinese when they emigrate abroad like Han are, even though they are both supposedly Chinese when citizens of the PRC. In that case, if I married a Uighur with a PRC passport, my security clearance would still be in jeapordy, if I married a Chinese (Han) or Uighur with a Canadian passport, there is less of a problem depending on when/if they naturalized.

coolspot 8y ago

Probably shadowbanned, like you will not get you clearance/background check passed by untold reason.

forks25 8y ago
Actually when you get denied a clearance they give you a statement of reasons (SOR) in your rejection letter which you have a certain period to rebut. (I think 30 days?)
- kbos87 8y ago
  Guessing they have a dozen vague reasons on the ready to cite without any further explanations required
  - ardy42 8y ago
    > Guessing they have a dozen vague reasons on the ready to cite without any further explanations required You're wrong. You should read the link forks25 posted to one of the decisions: http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2018/16-04107.h1.pdf http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2018/16-04107.h1.pdf I looked through some others, and here's one where a Chinese person was denied clearance on account of foreign ties: http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/17-03450.a1.pdf http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/17-03450.a1.pdf And here's another were someone was denied for alcoholism: http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/18-00782.a1.pdf http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/18-00782.a1.pdf All the reasoning seems very clear to me.

CharlesColeman 8y ago

> I've also heard people who go to work for Chinese companies are then blacklisted from US Government defense- and intel-related work for 1 year. Can anyone confirm? I definitely want confirmation on this. I could see the security-clearance folks being skeptical of someone who moved to mainland China to work, but not of someone who, say had a job in the US at a Chinese-owned company like AMC [1] or Riot Games [2]. [1] http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/the-biggest-american-companies-now-owned-by-the-chinese/ http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/the-biggest-american-companies... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Games

forks25 8y ago
There isn't some hard rule like that. If you have no family connections to china, moved over to join some cool company, then came back a year later because you got bored, your interim clearance would probably be denied, and your background investigation would probably take longer but you could still get a clearance.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jowday 8y ago

A few years ago, I was told by someone knowledgeable about clearances that I shouldn't visit China or Russia if I was interested in getting a clearance or applying for defense or intelligence related work in the next couple of years.

forks25 8y ago

There isn't a blacklist this guy[0] does business in China, Turkey and India and kept his clearance. [0] http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2018/16-04107.h1.pdf http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2018/16-04107.h1.pdf