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Same problem in germany, recently. Parents think they know better and refuse to have their kids vaccinated. Now the vaccination rate is low enough for measles

Same problem in germany, recently. Parents think they know better and refuse to have their kids vaccinated. Now the vaccination rate is low enough for measles to start spreading in schools etc. Currently there is a discussion about making vaccination mandatory: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-measles-vaccine-could-be-compulsory-for-kids/a-48050623 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-measles-vaccine-could-be-compu...

cbg0 8y ago
While I'm not sure on the legal side of things if this is enforceable, I think not allowing them to participate in school as a matter of public health would be easier to put into law than forcing them to get vaccinated. Obviously, state and private companies could require vaccinations for employment as well, so unless you have a medical reason to not be vaccinated you won't be able to be part of civilized society.
- dvdkhlng 8y ago
  Yes, for kindergarden I would imagine such kind of approach to be very effective. However, school is obligatory (at least where I come from) and people even get into trouble for taking kinds on vacation outside of school holidays, so denying kids to participate in school may not be an option (and would also not be in the kids' interest).
  - askmike 8y ago
    In my country too, I think cbg0 is referring to homeschooling these kids instead.
    - JanSt 8y ago
      Homeschooling is not allowed in Germany
      - askmike 8y ago
        Not at all? It is in my country (the Netherlands) in some circumstances, for example if you are of a certain religion and there is no school within x kilometers that satisfies your religious requirements.
  - cbg0 8y ago
    > denying kids to participate in school may not be an option (and would also not be in the kids' interest) We're talking a hypothetical that might require legislative changes, which isn't too far-fetched if the problem keeps growing. Also, I'd argue that not vaccinating a kid is also not in the child's interest, and not in the interests of that child's classmates. Education is compulsory and a constitutional right where I live (Romania) and we have problems with low vaccination rates here as well. I'm question at which point do we put the well being of the pack above the individual's rights.
- nobatron 8y ago
  Then the parents will just home school and the kids will grow up with the same views and not learn critical thinking. Better to keep them in the system I think.
  - skrause 8y ago
    Home schooling is not legal in Germany.
  - cbg0 8y ago
    Although anecdotal, I studied in the public system and I would say that most of my classmates did not really learn critical thinking, neither from school or a different source. I guess it depends on the education system in question, as some of them, like mine, are more focused on memorizing facts instead of questioning them.
- lemming 8y ago
  The problem is that in Germany I believe schooling is mandatory - you can't homeschool, for example. So what do you do with kids whose parents refuse to vaccinate? In Australia they went for a different approach - just make it really expensive by not allowing government subsidies and tax breaks for parent who don't vaccinate.
  - dao- 8y ago
    > So what do you do with kids whose parents refuse to vaccinate? Well, there are rules for parents failing to send their kids to school. Ultimately authorities can take away guardianship from the parents.
    - burgerzzz 8y ago
      Wow. That's a leap to me to take away their children. I'm just curious, why, when the CDC states that there is a possibility for long term reactions to vaccines, and we know from practice to be skeptical of science's fallibility, is it such a stretch to consider some folks don't want to take the leap of trust.
      - cloverich 8y ago
        There's a much greater possibility of long term reactions to the diseases vaccines prevent. It's not such a stretch to consider refusing to vaccinate your children as on par with refusing to use seat buckles.
        burgerzzz 8y ago
        Do you have some statistics on this analogy? I'm curious how many children have died in recent years from not getting a vaccination. I'm honestly not taking one side or the other, but it's clear that you can't have an honest debate on this subject without being called an "anti-vaxxer" and "anti-science" and the like.
        8y ago
- truckerbill 8y ago
  This would create its own echo-chamber of sorts I'd wager
  - tremon 8y ago
    I have no problem forcing all non-vaccinated kids to go to their own (quarantined) school.
raxxorrax 8y ago
Fake news. The vaccination rate is the same it was 10 years ago and a few decades before that. The discussion is political of course but its primary function is to ease the temper of judgemental people.

cbg0 8y ago

While I'm not sure on the legal side of things if this is enforceable, I think not allowing them to participate in school as a matter of public health would be easier to put into law than forcing them to get vaccinated. Obviously, state and private companies could require vaccinations for employment as well, so unless you have a medical reason to not be vaccinated you won't be able to be part of civilized society.

dvdkhlng 8y ago
Yes, for kindergarden I would imagine such kind of approach to be very effective. However, school is obligatory (at least where I come from) and people even get into trouble for taking kinds on vacation outside of school holidays, so denying kids to participate in school may not be an option (and would also not be in the kids' interest).
- askmike 8y ago
  In my country too, I think cbg0 is referring to homeschooling these kids instead.
  - JanSt 8y ago
    Homeschooling is not allowed in Germany
    - askmike 8y ago
      Not at all? It is in my country (the Netherlands) in some circumstances, for example if you are of a certain religion and there is no school within x kilometers that satisfies your religious requirements.
- cbg0 8y ago
  > denying kids to participate in school may not be an option (and would also not be in the kids' interest) We're talking a hypothetical that might require legislative changes, which isn't too far-fetched if the problem keeps growing. Also, I'd argue that not vaccinating a kid is also not in the child's interest, and not in the interests of that child's classmates. Education is compulsory and a constitutional right where I live (Romania) and we have problems with low vaccination rates here as well. I'm question at which point do we put the well being of the pack above the individual's rights.
nobatron 8y ago
Then the parents will just home school and the kids will grow up with the same views and not learn critical thinking. Better to keep them in the system I think.
- skrause 8y ago
  Home schooling is not legal in Germany.
- cbg0 8y ago
  Although anecdotal, I studied in the public system and I would say that most of my classmates did not really learn critical thinking, neither from school or a different source. I guess it depends on the education system in question, as some of them, like mine, are more focused on memorizing facts instead of questioning them.
lemming 8y ago
The problem is that in Germany I believe schooling is mandatory - you can't homeschool, for example. So what do you do with kids whose parents refuse to vaccinate? In Australia they went for a different approach - just make it really expensive by not allowing government subsidies and tax breaks for parent who don't vaccinate.
- dao- 8y ago
  > So what do you do with kids whose parents refuse to vaccinate? Well, there are rules for parents failing to send their kids to school. Ultimately authorities can take away guardianship from the parents.
  - burgerzzz 8y ago
    Wow. That's a leap to me to take away their children. I'm just curious, why, when the CDC states that there is a possibility for long term reactions to vaccines, and we know from practice to be skeptical of science's fallibility, is it such a stretch to consider some folks don't want to take the leap of trust.
    - cloverich 8y ago
      There's a much greater possibility of long term reactions to the diseases vaccines prevent. It's not such a stretch to consider refusing to vaccinate your children as on par with refusing to use seat buckles.
      - burgerzzz 8y ago
        Do you have some statistics on this analogy? I'm curious how many children have died in recent years from not getting a vaccination. I'm honestly not taking one side or the other, but it's clear that you can't have an honest debate on this subject without being called an "anti-vaxxer" and "anti-science" and the like.
        8y ago
truckerbill 8y ago
This would create its own echo-chamber of sorts I'd wager
- tremon 8y ago
  I have no problem forcing all non-vaccinated kids to go to their own (quarantined) school.

raxxorrax 8y ago

Fake news. The vaccination rate is the same it was 10 years ago and a few decades before that. The discussion is political of course but its primary function is to ease the temper of judgemental people.