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USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive think

• deogeo 8y ago
  Isn't there some constitutional safeguard against punishment without trial/crime? Someone more knowledgeable please chime in. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-li... - insane.
• LeanderK 8y ago
  Are you serious? That sounds like a stupid idea, what if you need a car for/to reach work? then this is really counterproductive.
  • crooked-v 8y ago
    Similar things happen with unpaid child support, which absolutely doesn't help money actually show up for obvious reasons.
  • iooi 8y ago
    That's the whole point. Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people.
    • SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      > Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people. But what if you don't have auto debt? That logic doesn't work if someone bought a car they could afford.
      • iooi 8y ago
        Almost 50% of the car-owning US population relies on debt to purchase their vehicle [1]. There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright compared to older people that are well into their careers or retirement. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/03/the-number-of-americans-holding-auto-loan-debt-shows-no-signs-of-slowing-down-infographic/#5b0a2d107ffe https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/03/the-nu...
        • dragonwriter 8y ago
          > There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright I dunno, having an owned-outright used beater seemed normal among my peer group when I was in/just out of college; having newer, better (relative to contemporaries) vehicles with financing is more common now that we're very well into careers. You can get a student loan with no credit history at pretty much the same terms as everyone else, but that is decidedly not he case for auto loans.
          • pixl97 8y ago
            Emissions testing makes owning a beater risky.
            • saxonww 8y ago
              I was wondering about how prevalent this is - I've never had a car emissions-tested - and it looks like 31 states + DC have emissions testing in at least some part of the state [0]. Just glancing over this list, it looks like several states only test in metro areas, or otherwise have exceptions; even California has counties which do not test for emissions. Specifically, it looks like several states exempt from testing cars from the mid 90s and older. Lots of those still on the road. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_United_States#Jurisdictions_requiring_periodic_vehicle_emissions_inspections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_Unit...
    • thatcat 8y ago
      That is a very lazy way to construct an incentive system, sounds like an HR "innovation" not legislation.
      • iooi 8y ago
        Just to clarify, I'm not advocating for this system, it's just the way it is. This is article is a good (albeit small) overview of the size of the issue: https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/02/13/us-debt-rate-auto-loan-delinquencies-record.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/02/13/us-debt-rate-auto-...
  • godelski 8y ago
    > what if you need a car for/to reach work? This is America. So the answer is almost certainly: "Yes, you need your car to reach work."
    • mruts 8y ago
      5% of Americans take public transit to get to work. I wouldn't call that an almost certainty that you need a car. An almost certainty would be maybe under <.001%
      • godelski 8y ago
        > 5% of Americans take public transit to get to work. rephrasing: 95% of Americans take private transit to get to work. I would call that an almost certainty that you need a car.
        • mruts 8y ago
          If there was a 5% the market would crash 50% tomorrow. Would you call that an almost certainty that it wouldn't happen? You wouldn't hedge your risk? If there was a 5% that you would die tomorrow, you wouldn't feel concerned? 5% is huge.
          • xkcd-sucks 8y ago
            5% is "huge" when considering probability of a "catastrophic" event compounded over time, because what you're really thinking of is "expected value over a year" or something like that. This 5 percent, by contrast, is a fraction of a population.
          • P_I_Staker 8y ago
            What are you talking about? If 5% of the workforce showed up tomorrow, what do you think would happen? How'd you feel if you had a 5% chance of having transport to work?
        • deleted 8y ago
          [deleted]
  • droithomme 8y ago
    > That sounds like a stupid idea, what if you need a car for/to reach work? The point of these laws in the US is to punish and destroy people for the raw pleasure that power gives, and is not to seek rehabilitation or justice. The US is still a lynch mob oriented Puritan society on every level. The evil must be tortured and killed. The righteous must be elevated and never questioned, even if they are burning witches or werewolves at the stake without evidence that either even exists at all.
• massivecali 8y ago
  As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even register your vehicle if you're behind on your child support payments. (I need my job to make payments. I can't get to my job without my car.)
  • lisper 8y ago
    Sure, but none of that changes the fact that suspending someone's driving privilege as a punishment for failing to pay a debt is incredibly stupid and counterproductive.
    • dopamean 8y ago
      The crazy reality of that situation is that people will continue to drive when the license is suspended (because they need to). I made this mistake living in Florida years ago and was literally arrested, booked, and spent a night in jail.
    • headcanon 8y ago
      I was once sitting in a courtroom for something unrelated and saw a 19 year old kid go to jail for 3 months for not paying child support. Not sure how he's going to pay it back in there, but if all you have is a hammer...
      • Tomte 8y ago
        That's certainly not the first remedy that the court has taken. But say, if he hadn't been sent to prison, would he have paid child support then? We all don't know, but I strongly suspect no, and I strongly suspect the court has more than just my suspicions and calibrated its reaction accordingly.
        • 8y ago
• btrettel 8y ago
  Cyclist here. I'm amazed by how much money people spend on their vehicles. I have an expensive bike (about $1000 new), and aside from perhaps $100-$200 on maintenance and equipment per year, I spend nothing else for daily transportation. It's hard for cars to compete with that on cost. I think suspending someone's drivers' license due to debts could help reduce one's transportation spending. Unfortunately, much of the US is car dependent, so taking away someone's license is net counterproductive because one's income typically would decrease beyond the savings without their car.
  • PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    I'm also a cyclist, and spent most of my life biking exclusively, but not everyone is in a position to replace their car. If your car commute is 45 minutes on the highway, a bicycle is not going to help you when you lose your license.
    • btrettel 8y ago
      > not everyone is in a position to replace their car I agree, which is why I said taking away someone's license is net counterproductive. Also, I'm not suggesting that people should become cyclists, just that driving is expensive.
      • StudentStuff 8y ago
        On the flipside, a 45min commute in bad traffic can be a breeze on an eBike. Building mine ran $800 all in, and its been quite a commute changer. Ultimately, these are just bandaids for low-density areas, greater density is needed to make the US livable without long distance commuting.
        • rightbyte 8y ago
          I would happely bike 45 min to work 7 months a year when it's not freezing and I did so, till I left academia and took a industry job 45 min away with car. The main problem for commuting efficiency is housing and barrier of entry for getting a job close to where I live or vice versa.
• mc32 8y ago
  That’s so self defeating. I can see garnishing wages or something but not paying debt is completely divorced from the privilege to drive. Someone just thought “punishment!”
• overthemoon 8y ago
  21 will suspend your driver's license? What's the source on that? I'm getting that some states will block renewal of professional licenses, not driver's licenses. Still horrible, still a terrible situation, but not the same kind of gut check a driver's license suspension would be. EDIT: I'm somewhat heartened to see some movement against this practice: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2019/03/04/student-loan-debt-can-mean-losing-your-license-to-work-a-new-bill-by-rubio-and-warren-would-stop-it/#74ee818876e9 https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2019/03/04/student-...
• thatoneuser 8y ago
  Who are these states and how do we flame the legislators that inevitably got rich enacting this endenture servitude upon their youth?
• siruncledrew 8y ago
  Is there a reason why student debt and not other kinds of debt (e.g. credit card)? Also, how does the DMV know what someone’s debt history is?
  • freedomben 8y ago
    Yes, because the government took over most student loans a few years ago[1], and they make the rules (and want you to pay). [1] https://www.sfgate.com/business/networth/article/Feds-take-over-student-loan-program-from-banks-3193888.php https://www.sfgate.com/business/networth/article/Feds-take-o...
    • gwright 8y ago
      As a taxpayer, I want you to pay also. I also want the government out of the educational loan business and think that some of the financial risk should be borne by the educational institutions. Making educational loans dischargeable in bankruptcy sounds reasonable on the surface but it problematic when you consider that a newly minted college graduate basically has no assets. Allowing the loan to be dischargeable would encourage graduates to immediately declare bankruptcy to get rid of their student loans. Not sure what the solution is there other than not making the risky loan in the first place.
      • aperrien 8y ago
        Maybe make that type of debt dischargeable in 14 years, rather than 7? Or maybe make the clock on bankruptcy start ticking directly after graduation?
        • nickthemagicman 8y ago
          That's how it used to be actually.
      • duxup 8y ago
        Yeah for a college graduate bankruptcy would seem like a pretty quick solution.
• droithomme 8y ago
  > 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt Might as well suspend your license if you owe money to the mafia.
• coldtea 8y ago
  >USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. How are those two connected?! And what if you need to have a car to ...keep a job and pay your debt (seeing that many cities are built for cars, and not everyone has the luxury to live close to work, or even have a basic public transport).
• wonderwonder 8y ago
  There is nothing more expensive than being poor. Once you hit a certain level of poverty especially if you become entangled in the criminal justice system it becomes readily apparent that the system is designed to simply milk you of any resources including your freedom as that can be profitable for corporations. Poor people deal with obstacles that people with means never even think about. For example, Florida just voted to restore voting rights to felons and now the state legislature is attempting to change the will of the voting public to state that only felons that have all court costs and fines paid can vote. Public defenders are another example, if you are poor and charged with a crime your defense is worth ~30 minutes of a low paid attorney's time which results in higher fines and/or jail time and the cycle continues.
• natmaka 8y ago
  It may be induced by all industrial societies, as stated in the Unabomber Manifesto (among others).
• duxup 8y ago
  That's not fair... but I think that is a long long ways down the road from the social credit system.
• learc83 8y ago
  >21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. I can't find anything on this. I can find 22 states that can suspend some kind of state issued license if you fall behind on your student loan debt, but only 2 that say they can suspend your driver's license, and apparently those 2 don't really do it very often. I think you misread an article talking about professional licenses.
• P_I_Staker 8y ago
  I keep saying this, and while in some cases it's arguably very much deserved, we're already here. We have a very Scarlett letter mentality. Don't get dinged once or your life is ruined. We even see something like getting fired (which can happen for many reasons), as an albotrose a person should carry forever. Obviously, I need to point out that in many ways we're not like China, and plenty of people who get fired, commit crimes, lose their drivers licenses, default on debt, ect. live happy and prosperous lives.
• sgustard 8y ago
  Interesting the replies to this went in the well-trod direction of "why does the US require everyone to drive a car?" and not the equally indignant "why does the US force students to go into debt?"
• powerapple 8y ago
  You mean today if you owe a large sum amount of money to another person or entity, you can get away with it when there are court rulings against you? I am on next flight to New York!
• pseingatl 8y ago
  The US will also suspend your passport for tax and child support arrearages; thus making it impossible to travel.