6 ms·

i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky asset

by pxue 8y ago

i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky assets. you essentially played with fire and got burned. lots of cases like this where these "businessmen" loses money and then declared bankruptcy, refusing to pay anyone back. sounds a lot like wallstreet doesn't it? are you okay with what they did? this is government way saying enough is enough.

ada1981 8y ago
I don’t understand how someone ends up on the list. But I’m fairly certain I understand it more than you do. You can be put on the list for all sorts of things... “examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.”
- jandrese 8y ago
  Being a problem for local party officials too. Pretty hard to campaign against corruption if you are barred from travel and other systems.
- powerapple 8y ago
  no, not really.
- yorwba 8y ago
  You may be certain that you understand the list (this one http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/ http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/), but you are mistaken. You probably read an article about the "social credit system" that got the details wrong. Getting put on the list is a punishment that can be ordered by a court for various infractions, but not buying video games, because (unlike the other three) it is merely frowned upon, but not illegal. Discouraging video games was part of one companies' private implementation of a "social credit system". The list is another "social credit system". Various local governments within China are also running their own pilots. Those systems are not connected yet. It is expected that eventually the Chinese government will decide on one implementation by selecting parts of the pilot projects, but it isn't clear which parts. Until that happens, buying too many video games isn't going to ban you from taking high-speed rail.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Isn’t this he same as how diversely family planning laws used to be enforced? Every company/locality will come up with their own thing because the central government isn’t as powerful/focused to do something on its own. Which is good or bad depending on how you look at it.
function_seven 8y ago
I'm not sure what to make of your scare quotes, but none of what you wrote, on its face, sounds wrong to me. 1. If a lender lends me money, they're shouldering the risk that I may not repay the loan. That risk should be priced appropriately. 2. Bankruptcy is a valid concept. 3. What Wall Street did was misjudge the risk of their products (whether intentionally or not). Sounds like what the lenders in your example are doing. But the government is punishing the risk-takers. Not sure that's a good way to promote entrepreneurship or innovation. The bankruptcy alone should serve as the deterrent (and signal to future lenders)
- pxue 8y ago
  All your points are valid. However you're only looking at it in a way that's familiar to you. Here's a personal example, my parents bought a condo in China in a new development area, searched around for renovators and found this shop close by that seemed fairly legit. A show room, full staff, decent looking portfolio, sales people looked legit and they had legit looking supply chain relationship as well. My parents worked out a project scope and plan, estimated the cost, put down 25% for down payment. The shop came in, did a month of work and then disappeared. Job was half done. what happened? They went "bankrupt". Are the shop owners risk takers? Maybe. Did they really try to start a business? Honestly they probably saw an opportunity where a new development area was coming up and came in for the quick buck. Borrowed some money, set up shop to a decent level and then disappear. This isn't an isolated case, lots of examples exist. Am I saying this is the case for everyone? No. But its gotten bad enough that the government had to do something about it. Is it my parents fault for not doing more due diligence? Probably. But it's really really tiresome if you had to do this every. single. time. for everything.
  - function_seven 8y ago
    You're right. Thanks for the detail. As far as I know, (and correct me if I'm wrong), China didn't have a credit score system as developed as what we're used to in the US (i.e. Equifax, TransUnion, etc.) But what the social credit system represents is a leapfrog over that to something much more invasive and ubiquitous. I don't want to know if my contractor once smoked in a no-smoking area, of if they buy too many video games. But I do want to be able to check their contractor's license and make sure there aren't complaints.
pthomas551 8y ago
Yeah I'm no CCP supporter but sick of the bad takes on this. China has no national credit reporting system and it's very difficult to enforce civil court judgments across city/provincial lines. "Social credit" systems are mainly intended to help with this problem. The person in the article is in trouble for not paying his debts, not political activity or having the wrong friends. I'm sure the CCP would love to use social credit as another tool of repression, but for now they're having enough trouble getting a normal credit reporting system going.

by pxue 8y ago

ada1981 8y ago

I don’t understand how someone ends up on the list. But I’m fairly certain I understand it more than you do. You can be put on the list for all sorts of things... “examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.”

jandrese 8y ago
Being a problem for local party officials too. Pretty hard to campaign against corruption if you are barred from travel and other systems.
powerapple 8y ago
no, not really.
yorwba 8y ago
You may be certain that you understand the list (this one http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/ http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/), but you are mistaken. You probably read an article about the "social credit system" that got the details wrong. Getting put on the list is a punishment that can be ordered by a court for various infractions, but not buying video games, because (unlike the other three) it is merely frowned upon, but not illegal. Discouraging video games was part of one companies' private implementation of a "social credit system". The list is another "social credit system". Various local governments within China are also running their own pilots. Those systems are not connected yet. It is expected that eventually the Chinese government will decide on one implementation by selecting parts of the pilot projects, but it isn't clear which parts. Until that happens, buying too many video games isn't going to ban you from taking high-speed rail.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Isn’t this he same as how diversely family planning laws used to be enforced? Every company/locality will come up with their own thing because the central government isn’t as powerful/focused to do something on its own. Which is good or bad depending on how you look at it.

function_seven 8y ago

I'm not sure what to make of your scare quotes, but none of what you wrote, on its face, sounds wrong to me. 1. If a lender lends me money, they're shouldering the risk that I may not repay the loan. That risk should be priced appropriately. 2. Bankruptcy is a valid concept. 3. What Wall Street did was misjudge the risk of their products (whether intentionally or not). Sounds like what the lenders in your example are doing. But the government is punishing the risk-takers. Not sure that's a good way to promote entrepreneurship or innovation. The bankruptcy alone should serve as the deterrent (and signal to future lenders)

pxue 8y ago
All your points are valid. However you're only looking at it in a way that's familiar to you. Here's a personal example, my parents bought a condo in China in a new development area, searched around for renovators and found this shop close by that seemed fairly legit. A show room, full staff, decent looking portfolio, sales people looked legit and they had legit looking supply chain relationship as well. My parents worked out a project scope and plan, estimated the cost, put down 25% for down payment. The shop came in, did a month of work and then disappeared. Job was half done. what happened? They went "bankrupt". Are the shop owners risk takers? Maybe. Did they really try to start a business? Honestly they probably saw an opportunity where a new development area was coming up and came in for the quick buck. Borrowed some money, set up shop to a decent level and then disappear. This isn't an isolated case, lots of examples exist. Am I saying this is the case for everyone? No. But its gotten bad enough that the government had to do something about it. Is it my parents fault for not doing more due diligence? Probably. But it's really really tiresome if you had to do this every. single. time. for everything.
- function_seven 8y ago
  You're right. Thanks for the detail. As far as I know, (and correct me if I'm wrong), China didn't have a credit score system as developed as what we're used to in the US (i.e. Equifax, TransUnion, etc.) But what the social credit system represents is a leapfrog over that to something much more invasive and ubiquitous. I don't want to know if my contractor once smoked in a no-smoking area, of if they buy too many video games. But I do want to be able to check their contractor's license and make sure there aren't complaints.

pthomas551 8y ago

Yeah I'm no CCP supporter but sick of the bad takes on this. China has no national credit reporting system and it's very difficult to enforce civil court judgments across city/provincial lines. "Social credit" systems are mainly intended to help with this problem. The person in the article is in trouble for not paying his debts, not political activity or having the wrong friends. I'm sure the CCP would love to use social credit as another tool of repression, but for now they're having enough trouble getting a normal credit reporting system going.