5 ms·

"Just following orders" is a terrible rationalization for doing bad things.

by criley2 8y ago

denzil_correa 8y ago
What's the alternative recommendation for Apple?
- floren 8y ago
  I'd respect them more if they refused to do business in China. Not good for the company, sure, but it'd give me warm fuzzies.
  - acdha 8y ago
    Isn't that something of the nuclear option? Not doing business in China has to be a multi-trillion dollar project duplicating most of the computer assembly industry somewhere else.
  - eridius 8y ago
    Isn't that literally what they're doing with News, though? Apple is doing business in China but Apple News isn't available. They're not censoring news stories or altering them for Chinese audiences, it's simply not available.
    - sneak 8y ago
      This is a very good point.
iwasakabukiman 8y ago
To me, it feels as if “just following orders” is a different order of magnitude than disregarding a country’s rules and laws. They might be the same broad concept, but I think it’s a much larger conversation than just following orders. I don’t agree with the decision to censor in China but it feels like an unrealistic comparison to make here.
- criley2 8y ago
  "is a different order of magnitude than disregarding a country’s rules and laws" Apple seems willing to disregard American laws regarding backdoors, national security, and access to device information. I find it interesting that we're all proud that Apple will "stand up" to the US federal government and resist attacks on privacy and liberties, but then so many turn around justify them doing the exact opposite in China. "Well, when in Rome..." sounds like an awfully convenient rationalization as well.
  - Gaelan 8y ago
    The US has mechanisms for challenging unjust laws without getting arrested. China doesn’t.
    - criley2 8y ago
      Oh, so the tyrannical nature of China makes it just, moral and good to assist in the tyranny?
  - mehrdada 8y ago
    > Apple seems willing to disregard American laws regarding backdoors, national security, and access to device information. Which American law did they disregard? Unilateral opinions from one branch of government are not "laws".
  - dkonofalski 8y ago
    Apple hasn't disregarded any US laws. The Constitution specifically protects their ability to act in the ways they did. The Chinese government, however, does not. This isn't an Apples to apples comparison.
  - iwasakabukiman 8y ago
    When did they disregard anything involving laws about backdoors? As far as I know, there are no laws on the books in the US yet that say you have to provide a backdoor into your product. I could be wrong though. If you’re taking about the case with the San Bernadino shooter, they challenged the FBI in a court of law, which is exactly how something like that should be handled, is it not? As for China, if it was my choice, I wouldn’t do any business in China if I was a company that stands up for privacy. But that’s probably why I don’t run a trillion dollar company.

"Just following orders" is a terrible rationalization for doing bad things.

denzil_correa 8y ago

What's the alternative recommendation for Apple?

floren 8y ago
I'd respect them more if they refused to do business in China. Not good for the company, sure, but it'd give me warm fuzzies.
- acdha 8y ago
  Isn't that something of the nuclear option? Not doing business in China has to be a multi-trillion dollar project duplicating most of the computer assembly industry somewhere else.
- eridius 8y ago
  Isn't that literally what they're doing with News, though? Apple is doing business in China but Apple News isn't available. They're not censoring news stories or altering them for Chinese audiences, it's simply not available.
  - sneak 8y ago
    This is a very good point.

iwasakabukiman 8y ago

To me, it feels as if “just following orders” is a different order of magnitude than disregarding a country’s rules and laws. They might be the same broad concept, but I think it’s a much larger conversation than just following orders. I don’t agree with the decision to censor in China but it feels like an unrealistic comparison to make here.

criley2 8y ago
"is a different order of magnitude than disregarding a country’s rules and laws" Apple seems willing to disregard American laws regarding backdoors, national security, and access to device information. I find it interesting that we're all proud that Apple will "stand up" to the US federal government and resist attacks on privacy and liberties, but then so many turn around justify them doing the exact opposite in China. "Well, when in Rome..." sounds like an awfully convenient rationalization as well.
- Gaelan 8y ago
  The US has mechanisms for challenging unjust laws without getting arrested. China doesn’t.
  - criley2 8y ago
    Oh, so the tyrannical nature of China makes it just, moral and good to assist in the tyranny?
- mehrdada 8y ago
  > Apple seems willing to disregard American laws regarding backdoors, national security, and access to device information. Which American law did they disregard? Unilateral opinions from one branch of government are not "laws".
- dkonofalski 8y ago
  Apple hasn't disregarded any US laws. The Constitution specifically protects their ability to act in the ways they did. The Chinese government, however, does not. This isn't an Apples to apples comparison.
- iwasakabukiman 8y ago
  When did they disregard anything involving laws about backdoors? As far as I know, there are no laws on the books in the US yet that say you have to provide a backdoor into your product. I could be wrong though. If you’re taking about the case with the San Bernadino shooter, they challenged the FBI in a court of law, which is exactly how something like that should be handled, is it not? As for China, if it was my choice, I wouldn’t do any business in China if I was a company that stands up for privacy. But that’s probably why I don’t run a trillion dollar company.