6 ms·

Why pretend like China isn't the one censoring this.

by hello_friendos 8y ago

threatofrain 8y ago
It takes two to tango here.
- dkonofalski 8y ago
  Not really. They can't do business in China if they don't follow their laws.
  - criley2 8y ago
    "Just following orders" is a terrible rationalization for doing bad things.
    - denzil_correa 8y ago
      What's the alternative recommendation for Apple?
      - floren 8y ago
        I'd respect them more if they refused to do business in China. Not good for the company, sure, but it'd give me warm fuzzies.
        acdha 8y ago
        Isn't that something of the nuclear option? Not doing business in China has to be a multi-trillion dollar project duplicating most of the computer assembly industry somewhere else.
        eridius 8y ago
        Isn't that literally what they're doing with News, though? Apple is doing business in China but Apple News isn't available. They're not censoring news stories or altering them for Chinese audiences, it's simply not available.
        sneak 8y ago
        This is a very good point.
    - iwasakabukiman 8y ago
      To me, it feels as if “just following orders” is a different order of magnitude than disregarding a country’s rules and laws. They might be the same broad concept, but I think it’s a much larger conversation than just following orders. I don’t agree with the decision to censor in China but it feels like an unrealistic comparison to make here.
      - criley2 8y ago
        "is a different order of magnitude than disregarding a country’s rules and laws" Apple seems willing to disregard American laws regarding backdoors, national security, and access to device information. I find it interesting that we're all proud that Apple will "stand up" to the US federal government and resist attacks on privacy and liberties, but then so many turn around justify them doing the exact opposite in China. "Well, when in Rome..." sounds like an awfully convenient rationalization as well.
        Gaelan 8y ago
        The US has mechanisms for challenging unjust laws without getting arrested. China doesn’t.
        criley2 8y ago
        Oh, so the tyrannical nature of China makes it just, moral and good to assist in the tyranny?
        mehrdada 8y ago
        > Apple seems willing to disregard American laws regarding backdoors, national security, and access to device information. Which American law did they disregard? Unilateral opinions from one branch of government are not "laws".
        dkonofalski 8y ago
        Apple hasn't disregarded any US laws. The Constitution specifically protects their ability to act in the ways they did. The Chinese government, however, does not. This isn't an Apples to apples comparison.
KerrickStaley 8y ago
The issue is that normally, Chinese censorship does not apply to travelers with a foreign cell phone and foreign SIM. However, the way Apple implemented censorship for News+ goes beyond the norm, such that even foreign travelers are impacted. It's not a good thing for Apple to be innovating on ways to enforce Chinese censorship (although if I understand correctly, it doesn't matter—China could already censor roaming cell traffic, they just choose not to).
- iliketosleep 8y ago
  > Chinese censorship does not apply to travelers with a foreign cell phone and foreign SIM Really? Travelers with a foreign cell phone and foreign SIM are excepted from Chinese censorship laws? I find this very difficult to believe. It's more likely that censorship laws are simply more difficult to enforce on travelers, which doesn't make it any more legal.
  - powerapple 8y ago
    "difficult to believe" leads you to your own conclusion rather than researching on how it works...that's how internet works, sadly
    - iliketosleep 8y ago
      While China, even as a tourist, you are still subject to Chinese laws and regulations. Just because a rule isn't always strictly enforced doesn't mean it's nonapplicable. Any unsubstantiated claims to the contrary are "difficult to believe"
  - chillacy 8y ago
    When you travel with a US sim all your traffic is routed back to the US first so it’s quite slow, but it is uncensored. Another trick is you can buy prepaid sims in Hong Kong which use the exact same networks but are uncensored so the internet is fast and uncensored. But this route is expensive.
  - United857 8y ago

Why pretend like China isn't the one censoring this.

threatofrain 8y ago

It takes two to tango here.

dkonofalski 8y ago
Not really. They can't do business in China if they don't follow their laws.
- criley2 8y ago
  "Just following orders" is a terrible rationalization for doing bad things.
  - denzil_correa 8y ago
    What's the alternative recommendation for Apple?
    - floren 8y ago
      I'd respect them more if they refused to do business in China. Not good for the company, sure, but it'd give me warm fuzzies.
      - acdha 8y ago
        Isn't that something of the nuclear option? Not doing business in China has to be a multi-trillion dollar project duplicating most of the computer assembly industry somewhere else.
      - eridius 8y ago
        Isn't that literally what they're doing with News, though? Apple is doing business in China but Apple News isn't available. They're not censoring news stories or altering them for Chinese audiences, it's simply not available.
        sneak 8y ago
        This is a very good point.
  - iwasakabukiman 8y ago
    To me, it feels as if “just following orders” is a different order of magnitude than disregarding a country’s rules and laws. They might be the same broad concept, but I think it’s a much larger conversation than just following orders. I don’t agree with the decision to censor in China but it feels like an unrealistic comparison to make here.
    - criley2 8y ago
      "is a different order of magnitude than disregarding a country’s rules and laws" Apple seems willing to disregard American laws regarding backdoors, national security, and access to device information. I find it interesting that we're all proud that Apple will "stand up" to the US federal government and resist attacks on privacy and liberties, but then so many turn around justify them doing the exact opposite in China. "Well, when in Rome..." sounds like an awfully convenient rationalization as well.
      - Gaelan 8y ago
        The US has mechanisms for challenging unjust laws without getting arrested. China doesn’t.
        criley2 8y ago
        Oh, so the tyrannical nature of China makes it just, moral and good to assist in the tyranny?
      - mehrdada 8y ago
        > Apple seems willing to disregard American laws regarding backdoors, national security, and access to device information. Which American law did they disregard? Unilateral opinions from one branch of government are not "laws".
      - dkonofalski 8y ago
        Apple hasn't disregarded any US laws. The Constitution specifically protects their ability to act in the ways they did. The Chinese government, however, does not. This isn't an Apples to apples comparison.

KerrickStaley 8y ago

The issue is that normally, Chinese censorship does not apply to travelers with a foreign cell phone and foreign SIM. However, the way Apple implemented censorship for News+ goes beyond the norm, such that even foreign travelers are impacted. It's not a good thing for Apple to be innovating on ways to enforce Chinese censorship (although if I understand correctly, it doesn't matter—China could already censor roaming cell traffic, they just choose not to).

iliketosleep 8y ago
> Chinese censorship does not apply to travelers with a foreign cell phone and foreign SIM Really? Travelers with a foreign cell phone and foreign SIM are excepted from Chinese censorship laws? I find this very difficult to believe. It's more likely that censorship laws are simply more difficult to enforce on travelers, which doesn't make it any more legal.
- powerapple 8y ago
  "difficult to believe" leads you to your own conclusion rather than researching on how it works...that's how internet works, sadly
  - iliketosleep 8y ago
    While China, even as a tourist, you are still subject to Chinese laws and regulations. Just because a rule isn't always strictly enforced doesn't mean it's nonapplicable. Any unsubstantiated claims to the contrary are "difficult to believe"
- chillacy 8y ago
  When you travel with a US sim all your traffic is routed back to the US first so it’s quite slow, but it is uncensored. Another trick is you can buy prepaid sims in Hong Kong which use the exact same networks but are uncensored so the internet is fast and uncensored. But this route is expensive.
- United857 8y ago