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I’m generally a good conversation participant, but this week has made me second guess myself. My father-in-law is currently hospitalized after his heart stoppe

I’m generally a good conversation participant, but this week has made me second guess myself. My father-in-law is currently hospitalized after his heart stopped this weekend. He’s currently in an induced coma. Brain damage is a foregone conclusion at this point and they’re unsure if he will ever regain consciousness. My wife and I happened to be on vacation in Costa Rica when this happened. We hopped on the next available flight and were at the hospital 21 hours later. Because we were unavailable, my younger brother-in-law was given Power of Attorney. This “power” went to his head within minutes. He’s now decided that he is the sole arbiter of information. Nobody but him is allowed to talk to the doctors or ask questions. I spent over 2 hours with him trying to talk it through. I never insulted or condescended him. My goal of the conversation was to allow his sister (both are the patients children) to participate in conversations with the medical staff. At the end of the 2 hours, he attempted to assault me so I left. I felt like a failure. I’ve never not been able to talk someone down from an irrational position before. I think I subconsciously used some of these NVC tactics, but failed miserably. Is there an online course one can take on having these difficult conversations? I need to up my skills.

ndynan 8y ago
I'm sorry to hear about your situation, that sounds particularly challenging. I've found this book very helpful at facilitating communication and it might be of help: https://www.amazon.com/Say-What-You-Mean-Communication/dp/161180583X https://www.amazon.com/Say-What-You-Mean-Communication/dp/16...
- leesalminen 8y ago
  Thank you for the link. I will check it out!
blowski 8y ago
I'm sorry to hear that, must be a really difficult for time for all of you. I doubt there's anything you could have done differently to get a better outcome. When people are in such weird situations, there's no "guaranteed method" to help. They're having a shit time, and they want to take it out on people - and you were there.
CiPHPerCoder 8y ago
Death, sickness, and financial windfalls each bring out the worst in most of us. Don't take it personally, the failure here isn't yours.
andrei_says_ 8y ago
You can find a lot of Marshall Rosenberg lectures and even full workshops on YouTube. An important part of the nvc practice is to give up attachment to outcome. Making a true request means that there will be no negative consequences if the answer is “No”. It is possible that your wife’s brother was triggered partly because you insisted (if you did), maybe he needed autonomy, solitude, to feel that he matters, to grieve, to rest. I teach NVC and often use a small yellow book called Communication Fundamentals by Jean Morrison.
- nfin 8y ago
  I can not figure how to buy it :( :( Only one website seems to have it, but shipping only to Australia :( Any ideas how to get it??
  - helloworld 8y ago
    I was curious, too, and after some Googling, I found it here: http://www.groktheworld.com/communication-fundamentals-2nd-edition-new http://www.groktheworld.com/communication-fundamentals-2nd-e... Looks like they ship just about anywhere.
    - nfin 8y ago
      thanks, you‘re awesome!
    - andrei_says_ 8y ago
      Yes that’s where I got it. I love this little book, because it focuses on the basics without getting heady. When I teach I use it for drills. Get it and: - start rewording in giraffe, esp. harsh internal dialogue - then start using “everyday” language to say the same things - remember that intention and alignment come become technique. Without them technique becomes a minus, not a plus.
glitchc 8y ago
There may be deep-seated and long-standing resentments playing out here, due to insecurities and perceived differences in status. It's possible your brother-in-law has also never held a position of power or authority. No amount of conversation on your part may fix it as a large portion of the problem is the source (i.e. you). It may be best to back off and let your wife handle it. He's her brother after all. Work through her to get your message across.
- leesalminen 8y ago
  Of course we tried that first. My wife tried, their uncle tried, their cousins tried. I was the last resort. I agree that it’s best now to back off. There’s nothing else I can do. It hurts me to see my wife in additional pain because she’s not allowed to talk to the medical staff herself. She has medical training and is likely to understand the medical “Mumbo Jumbo” better than anyone else in the family.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    I’m not sure I understand how it is impossible to talk to the medical staff, even if the brother still holds power of attorney. They won’t tell her anything about her dads condition without it? She doesn’t want to do it because her brother would freak out?
    - rhizome 8y ago
      HIPAA, I imagine.
exclusiv 8y ago
I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. The family is in a very difficult spot right now and people all cope and behave differently. I'd recommend the book Never Split the Difference which was written by a former hostage negotiator. From what I learned from that book, anchoring his emotions and asking How questions might have helped you. Why questions are accusatory and put people on the defensive, often leading to escalation.
- leesalminen 8y ago
  Thank you for the recommendation. I did use Why questions and probably should’ve avoided those. I’ll check out this book.
phaefele 8y ago
I found this book very helpful in several difficult conversations over the years - https://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-Matters/dp/0143118447 https://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-... It has quite practical advice as well as a framework helping one navigate.
- leesalminen 8y ago
  Thanks for the link. I will check it out.
freyir 8y ago
I've often seen families get particularly hostile when an in-law involves him or herself with the death or illness of a parent. It doesn't matter whether you're right or what approach you use. They're likely in one of the worst times of their life, and they're not going to be receptive to negotiation tactics. Why is your wife not having this conversation?
- leesalminen 8y ago
  Unfortunately they’re both terrible to each other. Always have been, likely always will be. Even in relatively stressless situations they end up at each other’s throats in seconds. The family (not my wife) asked me to talk to my brother-in-law about this because nobody else could get through to him. I totally agree I’m not the right person to get in the middle. There’s just nobody else willing or able to.
  - freyir 8y ago
    That's a tough situation. It's good that you tried.
  - PakG1 8y ago
    If this is the situation, I would not be so hard on yourself. It seems like there's a lot of history and emotional trauma that would need to be resolved before any progress would be feasible. If this is indeed the situation, getting your wife involved in the process could make it worse, not better. Imagine all the fights they'd have with so much on the line, when they'd have so many fights before when there wasn't much on the line. You just walked into an impossible situation and did your best. You probably would have done better if you were a sympathetic complete stranger with whom your brother-in-law had zero emotional history (and even if he had zero emotional history with you, he certainly had a lot with your wife and probably subconsciously viewed you as her proxy). edit: Thinking about it, I think the only thing I'd be able to say in that situation is something like this, just be supporting, not judgmental, not trying to convince him about anything: "Hey man. I'm really sorry this is happening. I know that things are hard right now. If there's anything I can do to help you or the situation, let me know, and I'll do it. How are you yourself? Do you need to talk with anyone about how you're feeling? Let me know if I can help, I'll be right here, OK?"
Zelphyr 8y ago
Don't give up on your brother-in-law. He's making seemingly irrational decisions but look at it from is point of view. His father may be dying. Regardless of his relationship with his father, this is a very difficult thing to go through. And then he suddenly has a lot of responsibility placed on him. He's having to answer questions he's never been asked before much less having given much thought to. He's being told things that he may not understand well or at all (medical and legal). His power trip probably stems from feeling like he needs to be "the man of the family" and be strong for everyone else to the detriment of himself. He likely feels like he'd be perceived as weak if he reached out and asked for help, when that's actually the number one thing he needs to be doing right now. My recommendation would be make some space for the way he's acting and let him know you and his sister love him regardless, know how difficult this must be, and are there for anything he needs and then, don't say anything else. Don't provoke him. Let him come to you. He may not and if he doesn't, then accept that there is nothing else you can do that won't make the situation worse. But it's just as possible that simply listening to him if and when he talks, almost playing into his power trip, may actually open him up to sharing more information with you. We humans are such strangely paradoxical creatures sometimes. :) Good luck and I wish you and your family the best.
- elhudy 8y ago
  Instead of making space, what are your thoughts on OP leveraging these perceptions to find common ground? E.g., "We understand that we need you to be the man of the family, and appreciate that you have stepped up to be strong for all of us. We would like to support you in doing so and feel that our greatest assistance would be in helping to facilitate communications for you. Is this something you're able to allow?" Such a communication should probably come from someone other than OP since he's on bad terms following the assault. Thoughts?
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    This is speculatively projecting a lot of thoughts and feelings on the brother-in-law, which is quite patronizing. It also awkwardly uses overcomplicated words and overcomplicated passive grammar. Try reading the linked blog post again, and hold up your proposed question against each of Dave Bailey’s suggestions.
maxxxxx 8y ago
This is a family issue so it would have been your wife’s job to deal with this. As an in-law you are often an outsider when it comes to these issues.
- leesalminen 8y ago
  I agree in principle and I hate being put in the middle of this. I responded to some other similar comments on this sub-thread but the short of it is that I was asked to do this by the family (not my wife) because nobody else can get through to him.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I think you were in an impossible situation so there is no need to beat yourself up. Keeping observe and another opportunity for an intervention or steering things may come up later.
arandr0x 8y ago
It's easier for care teams in this situation to speak to one person. I suppose your wife (if she felt up to the task) could have asked if your brother needed relief, but 21 hours in an emergency is a very long time and being the only one on deck for 21 hours is a very stressful circumstance.
aok1425 8y ago
My friend had recommended to me a book called Difficult Conversations: https://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-Matters/dp/0143118447 https://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-...
fencepost 8y ago
The questions that should follow now that the rest of the family is now available are "Who had the authority to grant this to him, do they have the authority to revoke it, has the rest of the family spoken with this outside authority, and what else can be done?" There has to be some sort of provision for dealing with situations like this, because this is far from the worst possible outcome. (e.g. "Great, $social_worker, you've now granted power of attorney to the person who lives with dad because dad was the only person able to get him to remain in treatment and on his medications, but who hates the rest of the family.")
dougmwne 8y ago
That is such a sad situation. I can tell from the language you used that you and your wife must be quite upset with your brother-in-law. And he is clearly very upset and expressing it in a way that's making a difficult time even more difficult. He also had to take on a terrible responsibility when he was the only person available. It might be that there's nothing you can do right now to get him to see things through your eyes. Maybe all you can do at the moment is work on self-kindness, forgiveness and patience on your own and prepare for how to mend the relationship in the future. I have seen these rifts in my own family never heal, so I hope that they will in your family.
- leesalminen 8y ago
  Sage words. I’m sorry that you’ve also been through these family disconnects. It’s heartbreaking. I will work on myself to forgive and hopefully we can be a family again in the future. Thank you for taking the time.
jacobolus 8y ago
I was present for the last few days of my grandmother’s life, as were all of my aunts and uncles. Under severe stress, several of them reverted to basically their childhood personalities and relationships with each-other. It surfaced a bunch of half-century-old petty resentments and roles, which was quite surprising for me as an observer who was born 25+ years after their childhood. Try to cut your brother in law some slack. He’s having a hard time.
CPLX 8y ago
His father is dying and you're some asshole that's fucking his sister who's trying to intrude on the situation. Clearly I don't actually believe that, but it's helpful to start understanding the dynamic by internalizing the other guy's point of view. In this situation the right approach is to walk away, you can't and shouldn't try to get between someone and their father in a moment of crisis. His sister has standing, you don't. She has to step up and deal with it, or not, at her discretion.
- tathougies 8y ago
  > some asshole that's fucking his sister You mean his brother-in-law and family right? Can we stop framing sex between loving couples as violence or somehow unrelated to family.
maire 8y ago
Death and illness in the family is particularly stressful and there is no amount of NVC tactics that are up to the task. Your brother in laws protective instincts have kicked in and you will not be able to talk to him rationally until he feels out of danger. Just relax until the limbic system dies down, let your bother in law know you want to help, and then have a calm NVC conversation with your brother in law.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
specialist 8y ago
"Because we were unavailable, my younger brother-in-law was given Power of Attorney." I don't understand this. IANAL, but recently had to figure some of this stuff out. PoA is granted per the wishes of the grantor. If your FIL is incapacitated, who granted the PoA? I think your wife is certainly within her rights to see the actual PoA. I am not advocating lawyering up or pushing hard for clarity. I am saying that it might be worthwhile to figure out what's what, explore options. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. Like who and how decides about DNR, end-of-life, etc. Further, it's good practice. Talk to your kids, next-of-kin, whoever. Figure this stuff out ahead of time. For everyone's peace of mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_attorney https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_attorney My family has a long tradition of planning ahead for this stuff. Even so, we recently scrambled to update my mom's paperwork to better reflect the current situation. Just in case. Having that clarity helped. Prevented a bad situation from getting worse and got us all back to rowing together. For comparison, my SIL's family hasn't done anything, won't talk about it, and last year was a total shitshow. Also, my sweetie's family hasn't done anything, won't talk about it, the inevitable happened, and now it's a shitshow. -- Ask about any available resources, social workers, counseling. They can help navigate this stuff.
giardini 8y ago
leeslaminen says: "Because we were unavailable, my younger brother-in-law was given Power of Attorney." If what you say is true, then get a lawyer and request that the court transfer POA to you or your wife, whomever was specified in his papers or in the law by default. Now that you _are_ available, the court may transfer POA to you. Let this be a reminder to those reading that, when you assign POA you might also wish to designate whom you DO NOT wish to be assigned POA, in case the first-listed assignees are not available, resign, or later removed somehow. Too bad you didn't let him assault you: that would have made it much easier. You could have charged him with assault and used it as evidence in the POA hearing or simply as leverage to force him to yield. Alternatively, if you can find grounds, you can question the original POA document and have it nullified. All in all it sounds as if, in addition to having irritable in-laws (who doesn't?), you simply didn't get your way and are angry about it. So either lawyer up or learn how to deal with "No.".
- JohnSully 8y ago
  > Too bad you didn't let him assault you: that would have made it much easier. Simply charge him with assault and use it as evidence in the POA hearing. Sometimes its best not to further aggravate family arguments. This situation is currently recoverable, filing charges will forever change the relationship.
  - giardini 8y ago
    JohnSully says: Sometimes its best not to further aggravate family arguments. This situation is currently recoverable, filing charges will forever change the relationship. In most such situations it may resolve the matter to the benefit of a wiser or more socialized party, does little additional harm and merely cements and documents a longstanding situation that has little or no chance of being changed. It also provides documentation and a basis for future litigation if necessary.
    - JohnSully 8y ago
      Under extreme emotional stress such as this situation people act irrationally. The brother may come to his senses and relent as he has time to calm down and reflect. If charges are pressed it becomes extremely unlikely this will happen. Further it does harm, it will dramatically affect the life of the brother if he is convicted. Deescalation is not emotionally satisfying but it does work.
randyrand 8y ago
As someone with many brothers and sisters, how is Power of Attorney determined? Just curious.
- kyteland 8y ago
  I have no idea about what happens in the moment but it is best determined long before a situation like this arises. My mom is an RN and has seen first hand the need to have this set up prior to a serious situation happening. I have health care power of attorney for her instead of my dad or sister because she believes I'm more likely to follow her wishes around extreme measures being taken or being put on life support. I hope I'm never put in that situation but if it happens the whole family has already talked about what she wants and I'm the person with HCPOA. It's a hard conversation that most people desperately try to avoid but if you haven't already set it up (especially if you're married or have kids) you should set a goal to do that this year. There are lots of simple guides online to help you put something in place or you can hire a professional to guide you if you have a more complicated personal situation.
metabren 8y ago
Sorry to hear. Check out Crucial Conversations (https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822 https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-...). It's a framework that I've found immensely helpful. If interested, I do recommend you read the book, but you can still get something out of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFaXx3pgaxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFaXx3pgaxM (it's a summary masquerading as a review).
- blablabla123 8y ago
  Yeah, the book is really good. But also only useful in really exceptional situations. (Speaking about workplaces, only in a toxic workplace there is use for it.)
LolNoGenerics 8y ago
Propagators of those techniques also tell you that sometimes there is no help. I.e. completely irrational positions or mindsets, as well arguments that are already set with hostility.
btilly 8y ago
The book https://www.amazon.com/Just-Listen-Discover-Getting-Absolutely/dp/0814436471 https://www.amazon.com/Just-Listen-Discover-Getting-Absolute... may help you. It is written by a psychiatrist who trains FBI hostage negotiators. Which is about as targeted as you can for hard conversations under difficult circumstances.
Bluestrike2 8y ago
You mentioned being unable to get any information from hospital staff. Did your brother-in-law explicitly instruct them for some reason not to provide any information to other family members? How exactly was he granted power of attorney? Was your father-in-law capable of signing a power of attorney when he was initially hospitalized, or had he signed a POA or healthcare proxy beforehand? If the latter, did it assign multiple agents and specify any restrictions on how they make decisions? For example, was the brother-in-law listed a successor to someone else in the agreement or are they co-agents? Getting a copy of the agreement will take very little billable time for any attorney. Given that time is probably a factor, and from how entrenched the attitude you've described is by now, it's unlikely that you or the family will be able to talk your brother-in-law into backing down in any reasonable timeframe. Your first step is to get a copy of the power of attorney agreement and go from there. Speaking to an attorney might seem like an aggressive step in such a precarious situation, with the potential for long-term consequences for the family dynamic. On the other hand, as difficult as it might be to hear, you're probably already at that point. Were your father-in-law to pass away without the rest of the family even being able to hear what's happening from a medical standpoint, painful as it may be to contemplate, it's highly unlikely that anyone in the family is going to be willing to forgive your brother-in-law for it. Appearing to go around him to get a copy of the agreement might be seen as a betrayal, but it's probably going to be less problematic in the long run than the status quo. I've seen families that have been permanently torn apart during end-of-life decision-making. Be that as it may, some manage to heal. Eventually. I hope that yours will be one of the ones that does so.
balabaster 8y ago
Firstly, in my experience with the medical system, which is sadly a great deal more than I hoped for my life, it's hard having multiple people communicating with medical experts. Information gets lost, doesn't get recorded, gets misinterpreted, misfiled, forgotten. Having multiple people asking questions at different times means someone never has the full picture of what's going on or is getting relayed or potentially misinterpreted information. It is absolutely better if one person is always present for conversations with doctors and nurses, even if his sister or you are also present. This way someone is guaranteed to have all the information and nothing gets lost or forgotten. You can all make decisions together, but only if you all understand all of the information at hand. In my experience with grieving people, which is also extensive, don't try and take over, often people try to manage their grief by managing the situation. Taking that away from him takes away his coping mechanism. I don't know your family and I can't speak for your situation, but if it were me, I wouldn't try and inject myself. I would keep this absolutely as simple as possible: "Hey, we're here for you. Thank you for stepping up and managing all this, I know it's almost impossible to keep track of what's going on with doctors coming and going constantly. What can we do to help?"
crucialfelix 8y ago
I have been in almost the same situation for the last two years. It's my mother that nearly died, her husband who now has power of attorney and uses this as an excuse to prevent us from even trivial medical information. It's far worse than just that actually. Worst battle I've ever gone through. Through careful emotional chess I now have won the peace, but he still won't tell us what medicines she is prescribed. It's an emotional trigger for him, a challenge to his leadership. You can't win against people like this because when they experience loss it makes them even harder to deal with.
davak 8y ago
As somebody that has this specific discussion regularly, I find that framing it as a group has helped in circumstances similar to yours. Framing it this way to your family and the health care team may help. “This decision is so difficult, let us share this burden with you. If we have to make a decision to remove life support, you shouldn’t have to make that decision alone. If we decide the massive costs of long term life support which may drain the estate, we should make that decision together. Dad would trust that we as a family would come together and make these tough decisions together.” People go through various stages of mourning so sometime just time helps. Remember that the family’s job is to be your Dad’s voice. What would he want? Events like this bring out the worst in everybody. These are just a few strategies that have worked for me in the past. Good luck.
mjcohen 8y ago
You may need to talk to a lawyer.
oska 8y ago
Why was it you having the conversation and not your wife?
peteforde 8y ago
I'm really sorry to hear about your father-in-law. Obviously, time is short, but there are two "trunk" books to be read when you're able: Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone and Getting to Yes by Roger Fisher and William Ury, both of the Harvard Negotiation School. They are the gold standard and most other books on the topic are pale imitations. I used to believe that I was great at communication and bad at negotiation, but the opposite was true; DC has literally changed my life more than any other non-fiction book because the most important outcomes in our lives are the result of the most difficult conversations. Your brother-in-law will eventually need to be forgiven for acting like a maniac, and you should anticipate that he will quickly transition into doubling down on the insanity because it seems less humiliating than admitting that he was acting like a tool. Before the healing, however, you do have a problem to solve (or possibly, not). The first question is for you: is your brother-in-law making good decisions unilaterally? Is it possible that he's trying to protect his father from your wife? Don't be mad at me for asking. It could be possible that you should let him continue, as things are already stressful and perhaps having one person in charge is okay. But let's assume that he's not making great decisions. What you need to figure out pronto is that when someone is upset, it's almost never what they say they are upset about. If your wife is pissed at you for missing dinner again, chances are that (unless you have an eating disorder) she's not worried that you're hungry. She feels disrespected, lonely and insecure about her marriage. So, if your brother-in-law says he's upset about X, the single most productive thing you can do is engage in creative empathy and figure out what he's most likely upset about. He's likely terrified of being abandoned by his dad, or perhaps is having a crisis of unresolved things that could never be said. He could be feeling powerless. The fact that he's the youngest might be manifesting as insecurity. (After all, why did you mention his age as relevant?) Perhaps he is terrified of death and seeing his father in this state is forcing him to confront his own death. I don't know what his deal is; just that it's almost certainly not what it seems to be. As for the negotiation, here are some helpful suggestions straight from Getting to Yes: first, be prepared. It doesn't hurt to write down some of the following and maybe even practice it. Second, start every negotiation with a negotiation about the negotiation; "do you have a minute? I need to talk to you about what's happening". Third, be aware of what you want and what he wants, but also be mindful of what he is willing to accept as a compromise in combination with what you are willing to accept as a compromise. Fourth, you will both win better outcomes if you negotiation from your interests rather than a position. Why do you want what you think you want and is there another way we could possibly satisfy both of our interests? It's critical to convey that someone does not have to lose in order for you both to win. (See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdA2wecb4k0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdA2wecb4k0 for a further summary.) A power move is to bring in a trusted but removed third-party expert to help with a difficult negotiation. It's important that this person is impartial and not arguing for either side or else the brother-in-law will rightfully feel attacked. Finally, don't be so hard on yourself. I am proud of you for attempting to be productive using whatever techniques you have in a time of stress. Best of luck.
thatoneuser 8y ago
People go full retard in hospitals and hospice. You're probably just facing more emotional intensity than you're used to.
treyfitty 8y ago
I don’t know your brother in law, but what I can say is that the alternative isn’t better. I went through almost the same thing last year where my father suffered a heart attack and ultimately ended up in a vegetative state. Me, my sister, and my mother had different schedules, and we asked the same questions all the time. The doctors and social workers lost their patience all the time repeating themselves. In hindsight, it would’ve saved a lot of heartache and arguments with staff had we assigned 1 person to be this arbiter of information. Just my 2c
karmelapple 8y ago
I’m sorry you went through this. Are you okay? I’m encouraged to hear you’ve used NVC, since I have learned it, too, but it’s also educational to see in certain situations even that can have its limits.
hathawsh 8y ago
If I were to start a conversation with him, I would initially focus on two things: I would recognize his value and dedication and I would get to know him better. I don't know his name, but I'll call him Ben. I would probably start like this: "Ben, I know this whole thing is very hard on you, but let me say I think you're doing a great job. No matter what anyone says, you're here for your father. That means a lot and I am sure your father would be proud of you for that. Not only that, but when the hospital asked you to step up and take on an important responsibility (power of attorney), you did it without hesitation. You're a loyal son and a gentleman. "How are you getting along? Have you ever experienced something like this before? [Wait for the answer and talk about it. Let him talk about his experiences for a while and choose to go in more depth about a particular experience.] What was it like to go through that? Did everyone turn out OK? "Listen, Ben, I'm here for you. I want you to keep the power of attorney because you've demonstrated your loyalty. Can we work together to figure out what it means to have power of attorney? I'm not too experienced with it, but I know attorneys in general have certain responsibilities to communicate with their clients and I'm sure something like that applies here. You've taken on a responsibility to communicate what's going on and I want to help you fulfill that responsibility. "I know your family has been hard on you, Ben, so I want to help you by communicating with them for you so you can focus on the more important things. Again, I'm with you every step of the way, so let's figure this out together. We're going to get through this." As you work with him, always be on his team. Never his superior nor subordinate, but always his peer. Navigate together.
scardine 8y ago
I think you may like the book "Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It" by Chris Voss. There are pretty insightful tricks there for dealing with extreme situations (the guy used to be a hostage negotiator for FBI).
colordrops 8y ago
My younger brother became irrational and physically hostile after our father's death, to the point where I had to leave the house for a couple days. My understanding is that it is somewhat normative for children of the recently deceased to get into confrontations.
deleted 8y ago
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m3kw9 8y ago
First you need to digg deep to see things from his perspective and acknowledge to him that it is how he is feeling, then the conversation will open up more. (Empathy), next try and restart the conversation by apologizing and ask a question that gets him to say no, so he feels he is in control. Then follow it up with an open ended question like “what is your sister supposed to do?” because he felt some sense of control from the previous question, he may concede something on his own. Make sure you prepare the questions and not wing it.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
I think there's an idea that you can heroically 'push through' in situations like that, but in my experience that's simply not how people change their ideas/behavior. People change slowly. You set forth the idea, you make your case quickly (e.g. the '40 word' guideline in this article) and you don't apply pressure. You can make clear the gravity of the situation if needed, but coercion, rhetoric, etc. will just work against you when people feel defensive. If you need someone to come closer to your point of view, you need to make room for them to do so. Giving space like this is hard, and it often seems like nothing is changing, but this approach is a lot more powerful than you might think. Obviously you don't have the luxury of time, but the reality is that you can't force the issue. 2 hours sounds miserable, for both of you, and it's only adding to his agitation. He may very well be making terrible mistakes, but they're his to make. I'll tell you this: there's a reason he doesn't want your wife there. I bet you he feels undermined, antagonized, or otherwise unsupported by her (justified or otherwise), and wants to focus on the difficult decisions ahead.
goto11 8y ago
No conversation technique will enable you to always get what you want. I mean, if such a technique existed the other part could also use it, right? The guide is not about how to win a conversation, just about how to have it. Your state that "the power went to his head" and he is "irrational". That is pretty judgemental! But looking at your story from the outside, he is the son with the dying father and you are an in-law trying to wrestle control of the situation and get access to medical information and perhaps influence critical decisions. No amount of conversation skill is going to make you closer related than the son.
tmp987 8y ago
1. let him threaten or assault you 2. call the cops 3. get him locked up 4. your wife will be given control It doesn't sound like that would make their relationship any worse, so why argue with an idiot when you can make him go away.
tomohawk 8y ago
Its heartbreaking when these things happen. All I can say, is for anyone reading this, if you do not have a will, medical power of attorney, and medical advance directive set up - do it now. Spare your loved ones this kind of confusion and hurt. After you create these, make sure to tell your loved ones what your expectations are. You need to pick someone to have medical power of attorney who will defend your wishes. You also need to file your directive with your local hospitals and care providers. This may be a difficult conversation, but not having it can cause many more problems.
jshowa3 8y ago
Sometimes you have to realize that there is no way to solve such a situation. I think the best situation in this case is to resolve it through the court system. It's incredibly hard to convince people to give up power on their own unless they have a certain disposition, there's no disincentive in doing it, or there's no consequence to them when keeping it. They need to be given a clear consequence if they don't.
- phkahler 8y ago
  >> It's incredibly hard to convince people to give up power... When I read that I thought the word power was important. The OPs brother-in-law is probably feeling a lot of things, one of which may well be "powerless" in the face of what is happening with his father. I'm not sure what involving the court is going to do in this case - for the patient or the interpersonal issues.
  - jshowa3 8y ago
    It's probably the only way to get rid of his power of attorney.
biounit 8y ago
I find this scenario strange. Why is your wife not interfacing directly with her brother? Why are you even involved in these discussions during this obviously challenging situation? It might be better to step back and support your wife and not insinuate yourself into the higher level aspects of the situation. You're only increasing the conflict. "Blood is thicker than water" is very true. And you just received a good lesson on that from your brother in law. Put your wife before everything else. If things get even worse you'll be the scapegoat at the end. Guaranteed.
throwawaystale 8y ago
This is awful. But in the end, it takes two, and you can only control your side of the conversation. I had a similar experience in my last divorce, doing every possible thing to make the negotiations non-confrontational, win/win, etc. My wife's stance was "I get everything", and no amount of kindness, reasoning, or patience could move her. (As you might imagine, the result was a trail of destruction, for me and her both.) I take some solace in this Buster Scruggs quote: "Misanthrope? I don’t hate my fellow man, even when he’s tiresome and surly and tries to cheat at poker. I figure that’s just a human material, and him that finds in it cause for anger and dismay is just a fool for expecting better."

ndynan 8y ago

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, that sounds particularly challenging. I've found this book very helpful at facilitating communication and it might be of help: https://www.amazon.com/Say-What-You-Mean-Communication/dp/161180583X https://www.amazon.com/Say-What-You-Mean-Communication/dp/16...

leesalminen 8y ago
Thank you for the link. I will check it out!

blowski 8y ago

I'm sorry to hear that, must be a really difficult for time for all of you. I doubt there's anything you could have done differently to get a better outcome. When people are in such weird situations, there's no "guaranteed method" to help. They're having a shit time, and they want to take it out on people - and you were there.

CiPHPerCoder 8y ago

Death, sickness, and financial windfalls each bring out the worst in most of us. Don't take it personally, the failure here isn't yours.

andrei_says_ 8y ago

You can find a lot of Marshall Rosenberg lectures and even full workshops on YouTube. An important part of the nvc practice is to give up attachment to outcome. Making a true request means that there will be no negative consequences if the answer is “No”. It is possible that your wife’s brother was triggered partly because you insisted (if you did), maybe he needed autonomy, solitude, to feel that he matters, to grieve, to rest. I teach NVC and often use a small yellow book called Communication Fundamentals by Jean Morrison.

nfin 8y ago
I can not figure how to buy it :( :( Only one website seems to have it, but shipping only to Australia :( Any ideas how to get it??
- helloworld 8y ago
  I was curious, too, and after some Googling, I found it here: http://www.groktheworld.com/communication-fundamentals-2nd-edition-new http://www.groktheworld.com/communication-fundamentals-2nd-e... Looks like they ship just about anywhere.
  - nfin 8y ago
    thanks, you‘re awesome!
  - andrei_says_ 8y ago
    Yes that’s where I got it. I love this little book, because it focuses on the basics without getting heady. When I teach I use it for drills. Get it and: - start rewording in giraffe, esp. harsh internal dialogue - then start using “everyday” language to say the same things - remember that intention and alignment come become technique. Without them technique becomes a minus, not a plus.

glitchc 8y ago

There may be deep-seated and long-standing resentments playing out here, due to insecurities and perceived differences in status. It's possible your brother-in-law has also never held a position of power or authority. No amount of conversation on your part may fix it as a large portion of the problem is the source (i.e. you). It may be best to back off and let your wife handle it. He's her brother after all. Work through her to get your message across.

leesalminen 8y ago
Of course we tried that first. My wife tried, their uncle tried, their cousins tried. I was the last resort. I agree that it’s best now to back off. There’s nothing else I can do. It hurts me to see my wife in additional pain because she’s not allowed to talk to the medical staff herself. She has medical training and is likely to understand the medical “Mumbo Jumbo” better than anyone else in the family.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  I’m not sure I understand how it is impossible to talk to the medical staff, even if the brother still holds power of attorney. They won’t tell her anything about her dads condition without it? She doesn’t want to do it because her brother would freak out?
  - rhizome 8y ago
    HIPAA, I imagine.

exclusiv 8y ago

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. The family is in a very difficult spot right now and people all cope and behave differently. I'd recommend the book Never Split the Difference which was written by a former hostage negotiator. From what I learned from that book, anchoring his emotions and asking How questions might have helped you. Why questions are accusatory and put people on the defensive, often leading to escalation.

leesalminen 8y ago
Thank you for the recommendation. I did use Why questions and probably should’ve avoided those. I’ll check out this book.

phaefele 8y ago

I found this book very helpful in several difficult conversations over the years - https://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-Matters/dp/0143118447 https://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-... It has quite practical advice as well as a framework helping one navigate.

leesalminen 8y ago
Thanks for the link. I will check it out.

freyir 8y ago

I've often seen families get particularly hostile when an in-law involves him or herself with the death or illness of a parent. It doesn't matter whether you're right or what approach you use. They're likely in one of the worst times of their life, and they're not going to be receptive to negotiation tactics. Why is your wife not having this conversation?

leesalminen 8y ago
Unfortunately they’re both terrible to each other. Always have been, likely always will be. Even in relatively stressless situations they end up at each other’s throats in seconds. The family (not my wife) asked me to talk to my brother-in-law about this because nobody else could get through to him. I totally agree I’m not the right person to get in the middle. There’s just nobody else willing or able to.
- freyir 8y ago
  That's a tough situation. It's good that you tried.
- PakG1 8y ago
  If this is the situation, I would not be so hard on yourself. It seems like there's a lot of history and emotional trauma that would need to be resolved before any progress would be feasible. If this is indeed the situation, getting your wife involved in the process could make it worse, not better. Imagine all the fights they'd have with so much on the line, when they'd have so many fights before when there wasn't much on the line. You just walked into an impossible situation and did your best. You probably would have done better if you were a sympathetic complete stranger with whom your brother-in-law had zero emotional history (and even if he had zero emotional history with you, he certainly had a lot with your wife and probably subconsciously viewed you as her proxy). edit: Thinking about it, I think the only thing I'd be able to say in that situation is something like this, just be supporting, not judgmental, not trying to convince him about anything: "Hey man. I'm really sorry this is happening. I know that things are hard right now. If there's anything I can do to help you or the situation, let me know, and I'll do it. How are you yourself? Do you need to talk with anyone about how you're feeling? Let me know if I can help, I'll be right here, OK?"

Zelphyr 8y ago

Don't give up on your brother-in-law. He's making seemingly irrational decisions but look at it from is point of view. His father may be dying. Regardless of his relationship with his father, this is a very difficult thing to go through. And then he suddenly has a lot of responsibility placed on him. He's having to answer questions he's never been asked before much less having given much thought to. He's being told things that he may not understand well or at all (medical and legal). His power trip probably stems from feeling like he needs to be "the man of the family" and be strong for everyone else to the detriment of himself. He likely feels like he'd be perceived as weak if he reached out and asked for help, when that's actually the number one thing he needs to be doing right now. My recommendation would be make some space for the way he's acting and let him know you and his sister love him regardless, know how difficult this must be, and are there for anything he needs and then, don't say anything else. Don't provoke him. Let him come to you. He may not and if he doesn't, then accept that there is nothing else you can do that won't make the situation worse. But it's just as possible that simply listening to him if and when he talks, almost playing into his power trip, may actually open him up to sharing more information with you. We humans are such strangely paradoxical creatures sometimes. :) Good luck and I wish you and your family the best.

elhudy 8y ago
Instead of making space, what are your thoughts on OP leveraging these perceptions to find common ground? E.g., "We understand that we need you to be the man of the family, and appreciate that you have stepped up to be strong for all of us. We would like to support you in doing so and feel that our greatest assistance would be in helping to facilitate communications for you. Is this something you're able to allow?" Such a communication should probably come from someone other than OP since he's on bad terms following the assault. Thoughts?
- jacobolus 8y ago
  This is speculatively projecting a lot of thoughts and feelings on the brother-in-law, which is quite patronizing. It also awkwardly uses overcomplicated words and overcomplicated passive grammar. Try reading the linked blog post again, and hold up your proposed question against each of Dave Bailey’s suggestions.

maxxxxx 8y ago

This is a family issue so it would have been your wife’s job to deal with this. As an in-law you are often an outsider when it comes to these issues.

leesalminen 8y ago
I agree in principle and I hate being put in the middle of this. I responded to some other similar comments on this sub-thread but the short of it is that I was asked to do this by the family (not my wife) because nobody else can get through to him.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I think you were in an impossible situation so there is no need to beat yourself up. Keeping observe and another opportunity for an intervention or steering things may come up later.

arandr0x 8y ago

It's easier for care teams in this situation to speak to one person. I suppose your wife (if she felt up to the task) could have asked if your brother needed relief, but 21 hours in an emergency is a very long time and being the only one on deck for 21 hours is a very stressful circumstance.

aok1425 8y ago

My friend had recommended to me a book called Difficult Conversations: https://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-Matters/dp/0143118447 https://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-...

fencepost 8y ago

The questions that should follow now that the rest of the family is now available are "Who had the authority to grant this to him, do they have the authority to revoke it, has the rest of the family spoken with this outside authority, and what else can be done?" There has to be some sort of provision for dealing with situations like this, because this is far from the worst possible outcome. (e.g. "Great, $social_worker, you've now granted power of attorney to the person who lives with dad because dad was the only person able to get him to remain in treatment and on his medications, but who hates the rest of the family.")

dougmwne 8y ago

That is such a sad situation. I can tell from the language you used that you and your wife must be quite upset with your brother-in-law. And he is clearly very upset and expressing it in a way that's making a difficult time even more difficult. He also had to take on a terrible responsibility when he was the only person available. It might be that there's nothing you can do right now to get him to see things through your eyes. Maybe all you can do at the moment is work on self-kindness, forgiveness and patience on your own and prepare for how to mend the relationship in the future. I have seen these rifts in my own family never heal, so I hope that they will in your family.

leesalminen 8y ago
Sage words. I’m sorry that you’ve also been through these family disconnects. It’s heartbreaking. I will work on myself to forgive and hopefully we can be a family again in the future. Thank you for taking the time.

jacobolus 8y ago

I was present for the last few days of my grandmother’s life, as were all of my aunts and uncles. Under severe stress, several of them reverted to basically their childhood personalities and relationships with each-other. It surfaced a bunch of half-century-old petty resentments and roles, which was quite surprising for me as an observer who was born 25+ years after their childhood. Try to cut your brother in law some slack. He’s having a hard time.

CPLX 8y ago

His father is dying and you're some asshole that's fucking his sister who's trying to intrude on the situation. Clearly I don't actually believe that, but it's helpful to start understanding the dynamic by internalizing the other guy's point of view. In this situation the right approach is to walk away, you can't and shouldn't try to get between someone and their father in a moment of crisis. His sister has standing, you don't. She has to step up and deal with it, or not, at her discretion.

tathougies 8y ago
> some asshole that's fucking his sister You mean his brother-in-law and family right? Can we stop framing sex between loving couples as violence or somehow unrelated to family.

maire 8y ago

Death and illness in the family is particularly stressful and there is no amount of NVC tactics that are up to the task. Your brother in laws protective instincts have kicked in and you will not be able to talk to him rationally until he feels out of danger. Just relax until the limbic system dies down, let your bother in law know you want to help, and then have a calm NVC conversation with your brother in law.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

specialist 8y ago

"Because we were unavailable, my younger brother-in-law was given Power of Attorney." I don't understand this. IANAL, but recently had to figure some of this stuff out. PoA is granted per the wishes of the grantor. If your FIL is incapacitated, who granted the PoA? I think your wife is certainly within her rights to see the actual PoA. I am not advocating lawyering up or pushing hard for clarity. I am saying that it might be worthwhile to figure out what's what, explore options. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. Like who and how decides about DNR, end-of-life, etc. Further, it's good practice. Talk to your kids, next-of-kin, whoever. Figure this stuff out ahead of time. For everyone's peace of mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_attorney https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_attorney My family has a long tradition of planning ahead for this stuff. Even so, we recently scrambled to update my mom's paperwork to better reflect the current situation. Just in case. Having that clarity helped. Prevented a bad situation from getting worse and got us all back to rowing together. For comparison, my SIL's family hasn't done anything, won't talk about it, and last year was a total shitshow. Also, my sweetie's family hasn't done anything, won't talk about it, the inevitable happened, and now it's a shitshow. -- Ask about any available resources, social workers, counseling. They can help navigate this stuff.

giardini 8y ago

leeslaminen says: "Because we were unavailable, my younger brother-in-law was given Power of Attorney." If what you say is true, then get a lawyer and request that the court transfer POA to you or your wife, whomever was specified in his papers or in the law by default. Now that you _are_ available, the court may transfer POA to you. Let this be a reminder to those reading that, when you assign POA you might also wish to designate whom you DO NOT wish to be assigned POA, in case the first-listed assignees are not available, resign, or later removed somehow. Too bad you didn't let him assault you: that would have made it much easier. You could have charged him with assault and used it as evidence in the POA hearing or simply as leverage to force him to yield. Alternatively, if you can find grounds, you can question the original POA document and have it nullified. All in all it sounds as if, in addition to having irritable in-laws (who doesn't?), you simply didn't get your way and are angry about it. So either lawyer up or learn how to deal with "No.".

JohnSully 8y ago
> Too bad you didn't let him assault you: that would have made it much easier. Simply charge him with assault and use it as evidence in the POA hearing. Sometimes its best not to further aggravate family arguments. This situation is currently recoverable, filing charges will forever change the relationship.
- giardini 8y ago
  JohnSully says: Sometimes its best not to further aggravate family arguments. This situation is currently recoverable, filing charges will forever change the relationship. In most such situations it may resolve the matter to the benefit of a wiser or more socialized party, does little additional harm and merely cements and documents a longstanding situation that has little or no chance of being changed. It also provides documentation and a basis for future litigation if necessary.
  - JohnSully 8y ago
    Under extreme emotional stress such as this situation people act irrationally. The brother may come to his senses and relent as he has time to calm down and reflect. If charges are pressed it becomes extremely unlikely this will happen. Further it does harm, it will dramatically affect the life of the brother if he is convicted. Deescalation is not emotionally satisfying but it does work.

randyrand 8y ago

As someone with many brothers and sisters, how is Power of Attorney determined? Just curious.

kyteland 8y ago
I have no idea about what happens in the moment but it is best determined long before a situation like this arises. My mom is an RN and has seen first hand the need to have this set up prior to a serious situation happening. I have health care power of attorney for her instead of my dad or sister because she believes I'm more likely to follow her wishes around extreme measures being taken or being put on life support. I hope I'm never put in that situation but if it happens the whole family has already talked about what she wants and I'm the person with HCPOA. It's a hard conversation that most people desperately try to avoid but if you haven't already set it up (especially if you're married or have kids) you should set a goal to do that this year. There are lots of simple guides online to help you put something in place or you can hire a professional to guide you if you have a more complicated personal situation.

metabren 8y ago

Sorry to hear. Check out Crucial Conversations (https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822 https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-...). It's a framework that I've found immensely helpful. If interested, I do recommend you read the book, but you can still get something out of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFaXx3pgaxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFaXx3pgaxM (it's a summary masquerading as a review).

blablabla123 8y ago
Yeah, the book is really good. But also only useful in really exceptional situations. (Speaking about workplaces, only in a toxic workplace there is use for it.)

LolNoGenerics 8y ago

Propagators of those techniques also tell you that sometimes there is no help. I.e. completely irrational positions or mindsets, as well arguments that are already set with hostility.

btilly 8y ago

The book https://www.amazon.com/Just-Listen-Discover-Getting-Absolutely/dp/0814436471 https://www.amazon.com/Just-Listen-Discover-Getting-Absolute... may help you. It is written by a psychiatrist who trains FBI hostage negotiators. Which is about as targeted as you can for hard conversations under difficult circumstances.

Bluestrike2 8y ago

You mentioned being unable to get any information from hospital staff. Did your brother-in-law explicitly instruct them for some reason not to provide any information to other family members? How exactly was he granted power of attorney? Was your father-in-law capable of signing a power of attorney when he was initially hospitalized, or had he signed a POA or healthcare proxy beforehand? If the latter, did it assign multiple agents and specify any restrictions on how they make decisions? For example, was the brother-in-law listed a successor to someone else in the agreement or are they co-agents? Getting a copy of the agreement will take very little billable time for any attorney. Given that time is probably a factor, and from how entrenched the attitude you've described is by now, it's unlikely that you or the family will be able to talk your brother-in-law into backing down in any reasonable timeframe. Your first step is to get a copy of the power of attorney agreement and go from there. Speaking to an attorney might seem like an aggressive step in such a precarious situation, with the potential for long-term consequences for the family dynamic. On the other hand, as difficult as it might be to hear, you're probably already at that point. Were your father-in-law to pass away without the rest of the family even being able to hear what's happening from a medical standpoint, painful as it may be to contemplate, it's highly unlikely that anyone in the family is going to be willing to forgive your brother-in-law for it. Appearing to go around him to get a copy of the agreement might be seen as a betrayal, but it's probably going to be less problematic in the long run than the status quo. I've seen families that have been permanently torn apart during end-of-life decision-making. Be that as it may, some manage to heal. Eventually. I hope that yours will be one of the ones that does so.

balabaster 8y ago

Firstly, in my experience with the medical system, which is sadly a great deal more than I hoped for my life, it's hard having multiple people communicating with medical experts. Information gets lost, doesn't get recorded, gets misinterpreted, misfiled, forgotten. Having multiple people asking questions at different times means someone never has the full picture of what's going on or is getting relayed or potentially misinterpreted information. It is absolutely better if one person is always present for conversations with doctors and nurses, even if his sister or you are also present. This way someone is guaranteed to have all the information and nothing gets lost or forgotten. You can all make decisions together, but only if you all understand all of the information at hand. In my experience with grieving people, which is also extensive, don't try and take over, often people try to manage their grief by managing the situation. Taking that away from him takes away his coping mechanism. I don't know your family and I can't speak for your situation, but if it were me, I wouldn't try and inject myself. I would keep this absolutely as simple as possible: "Hey, we're here for you. Thank you for stepping up and managing all this, I know it's almost impossible to keep track of what's going on with doctors coming and going constantly. What can we do to help?"

crucialfelix 8y ago

I have been in almost the same situation for the last two years. It's my mother that nearly died, her husband who now has power of attorney and uses this as an excuse to prevent us from even trivial medical information. It's far worse than just that actually. Worst battle I've ever gone through. Through careful emotional chess I now have won the peace, but he still won't tell us what medicines she is prescribed. It's an emotional trigger for him, a challenge to his leadership. You can't win against people like this because when they experience loss it makes them even harder to deal with.

davak 8y ago

As somebody that has this specific discussion regularly, I find that framing it as a group has helped in circumstances similar to yours. Framing it this way to your family and the health care team may help. “This decision is so difficult, let us share this burden with you. If we have to make a decision to remove life support, you shouldn’t have to make that decision alone. If we decide the massive costs of long term life support which may drain the estate, we should make that decision together. Dad would trust that we as a family would come together and make these tough decisions together.” People go through various stages of mourning so sometime just time helps. Remember that the family’s job is to be your Dad’s voice. What would he want? Events like this bring out the worst in everybody. These are just a few strategies that have worked for me in the past. Good luck.

mjcohen 8y ago

You may need to talk to a lawyer.

oska 8y ago

Why was it you having the conversation and not your wife?

peteforde 8y ago

I'm really sorry to hear about your father-in-law. Obviously, time is short, but there are two "trunk" books to be read when you're able: Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone and Getting to Yes by Roger Fisher and William Ury, both of the Harvard Negotiation School. They are the gold standard and most other books on the topic are pale imitations. I used to believe that I was great at communication and bad at negotiation, but the opposite was true; DC has literally changed my life more than any other non-fiction book because the most important outcomes in our lives are the result of the most difficult conversations. Your brother-in-law will eventually need to be forgiven for acting like a maniac, and you should anticipate that he will quickly transition into doubling down on the insanity because it seems less humiliating than admitting that he was acting like a tool. Before the healing, however, you do have a problem to solve (or possibly, not). The first question is for you: is your brother-in-law making good decisions unilaterally? Is it possible that he's trying to protect his father from your wife? Don't be mad at me for asking. It could be possible that you should let him continue, as things are already stressful and perhaps having one person in charge is okay. But let's assume that he's not making great decisions. What you need to figure out pronto is that when someone is upset, it's almost never what they say they are upset about. If your wife is pissed at you for missing dinner again, chances are that (unless you have an eating disorder) she's not worried that you're hungry. She feels disrespected, lonely and insecure about her marriage. So, if your brother-in-law says he's upset about X, the single most productive thing you can do is engage in creative empathy and figure out what he's most likely upset about. He's likely terrified of being abandoned by his dad, or perhaps is having a crisis of unresolved things that could never be said. He could be feeling powerless. The fact that he's the youngest might be manifesting as insecurity. (After all, why did you mention his age as relevant?) Perhaps he is terrified of death and seeing his father in this state is forcing him to confront his own death. I don't know what his deal is; just that it's almost certainly not what it seems to be. As for the negotiation, here are some helpful suggestions straight from Getting to Yes: first, be prepared. It doesn't hurt to write down some of the following and maybe even practice it. Second, start every negotiation with a negotiation about the negotiation; "do you have a minute? I need to talk to you about what's happening". Third, be aware of what you want and what he wants, but also be mindful of what he is willing to accept as a compromise in combination with what you are willing to accept as a compromise. Fourth, you will both win better outcomes if you negotiation from your interests rather than a position. Why do you want what you think you want and is there another way we could possibly satisfy both of our interests? It's critical to convey that someone does not have to lose in order for you both to win. (See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdA2wecb4k0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdA2wecb4k0 for a further summary.) A power move is to bring in a trusted but removed third-party expert to help with a difficult negotiation. It's important that this person is impartial and not arguing for either side or else the brother-in-law will rightfully feel attacked. Finally, don't be so hard on yourself. I am proud of you for attempting to be productive using whatever techniques you have in a time of stress. Best of luck.

thatoneuser 8y ago

People go full retard in hospitals and hospice. You're probably just facing more emotional intensity than you're used to.

treyfitty 8y ago

I don’t know your brother in law, but what I can say is that the alternative isn’t better. I went through almost the same thing last year where my father suffered a heart attack and ultimately ended up in a vegetative state. Me, my sister, and my mother had different schedules, and we asked the same questions all the time. The doctors and social workers lost their patience all the time repeating themselves. In hindsight, it would’ve saved a lot of heartache and arguments with staff had we assigned 1 person to be this arbiter of information. Just my 2c

karmelapple 8y ago

I’m sorry you went through this. Are you okay? I’m encouraged to hear you’ve used NVC, since I have learned it, too, but it’s also educational to see in certain situations even that can have its limits.

hathawsh 8y ago

If I were to start a conversation with him, I would initially focus on two things: I would recognize his value and dedication and I would get to know him better. I don't know his name, but I'll call him Ben. I would probably start like this: "Ben, I know this whole thing is very hard on you, but let me say I think you're doing a great job. No matter what anyone says, you're here for your father. That means a lot and I am sure your father would be proud of you for that. Not only that, but when the hospital asked you to step up and take on an important responsibility (power of attorney), you did it without hesitation. You're a loyal son and a gentleman. "How are you getting along? Have you ever experienced something like this before? [Wait for the answer and talk about it. Let him talk about his experiences for a while and choose to go in more depth about a particular experience.] What was it like to go through that? Did everyone turn out OK? "Listen, Ben, I'm here for you. I want you to keep the power of attorney because you've demonstrated your loyalty. Can we work together to figure out what it means to have power of attorney? I'm not too experienced with it, but I know attorneys in general have certain responsibilities to communicate with their clients and I'm sure something like that applies here. You've taken on a responsibility to communicate what's going on and I want to help you fulfill that responsibility. "I know your family has been hard on you, Ben, so I want to help you by communicating with them for you so you can focus on the more important things. Again, I'm with you every step of the way, so let's figure this out together. We're going to get through this." As you work with him, always be on his team. Never his superior nor subordinate, but always his peer. Navigate together.

scardine 8y ago

I think you may like the book "Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It" by Chris Voss. There are pretty insightful tricks there for dealing with extreme situations (the guy used to be a hostage negotiator for FBI).

colordrops 8y ago

My younger brother became irrational and physically hostile after our father's death, to the point where I had to leave the house for a couple days. My understanding is that it is somewhat normative for children of the recently deceased to get into confrontations.

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m3kw9 8y ago

First you need to digg deep to see things from his perspective and acknowledge to him that it is how he is feeling, then the conversation will open up more. (Empathy), next try and restart the conversation by apologizing and ask a question that gets him to say no, so he feels he is in control. Then follow it up with an open ended question like “what is your sister supposed to do?” because he felt some sense of control from the previous question, he may concede something on his own. Make sure you prepare the questions and not wing it.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago

I think there's an idea that you can heroically 'push through' in situations like that, but in my experience that's simply not how people change their ideas/behavior. People change slowly. You set forth the idea, you make your case quickly (e.g. the '40 word' guideline in this article) and you don't apply pressure. You can make clear the gravity of the situation if needed, but coercion, rhetoric, etc. will just work against you when people feel defensive. If you need someone to come closer to your point of view, you need to make room for them to do so. Giving space like this is hard, and it often seems like nothing is changing, but this approach is a lot more powerful than you might think. Obviously you don't have the luxury of time, but the reality is that you can't force the issue. 2 hours sounds miserable, for both of you, and it's only adding to his agitation. He may very well be making terrible mistakes, but they're his to make. I'll tell you this: there's a reason he doesn't want your wife there. I bet you he feels undermined, antagonized, or otherwise unsupported by her (justified or otherwise), and wants to focus on the difficult decisions ahead.

goto11 8y ago

No conversation technique will enable you to always get what you want. I mean, if such a technique existed the other part could also use it, right? The guide is not about how to win a conversation, just about how to have it. Your state that "the power went to his head" and he is "irrational". That is pretty judgemental! But looking at your story from the outside, he is the son with the dying father and you are an in-law trying to wrestle control of the situation and get access to medical information and perhaps influence critical decisions. No amount of conversation skill is going to make you closer related than the son.

tmp987 8y ago

1. let him threaten or assault you 2. call the cops 3. get him locked up 4. your wife will be given control It doesn't sound like that would make their relationship any worse, so why argue with an idiot when you can make him go away.

tomohawk 8y ago

Its heartbreaking when these things happen. All I can say, is for anyone reading this, if you do not have a will, medical power of attorney, and medical advance directive set up - do it now. Spare your loved ones this kind of confusion and hurt. After you create these, make sure to tell your loved ones what your expectations are. You need to pick someone to have medical power of attorney who will defend your wishes. You also need to file your directive with your local hospitals and care providers. This may be a difficult conversation, but not having it can cause many more problems.

jshowa3 8y ago

Sometimes you have to realize that there is no way to solve such a situation. I think the best situation in this case is to resolve it through the court system. It's incredibly hard to convince people to give up power on their own unless they have a certain disposition, there's no disincentive in doing it, or there's no consequence to them when keeping it. They need to be given a clear consequence if they don't.

phkahler 8y ago
>> It's incredibly hard to convince people to give up power... When I read that I thought the word power was important. The OPs brother-in-law is probably feeling a lot of things, one of which may well be "powerless" in the face of what is happening with his father. I'm not sure what involving the court is going to do in this case - for the patient or the interpersonal issues.
- jshowa3 8y ago
  It's probably the only way to get rid of his power of attorney.

biounit 8y ago

I find this scenario strange. Why is your wife not interfacing directly with her brother? Why are you even involved in these discussions during this obviously challenging situation? It might be better to step back and support your wife and not insinuate yourself into the higher level aspects of the situation. You're only increasing the conflict. "Blood is thicker than water" is very true. And you just received a good lesson on that from your brother in law. Put your wife before everything else. If things get even worse you'll be the scapegoat at the end. Guaranteed.

throwawaystale 8y ago

This is awful. But in the end, it takes two, and you can only control your side of the conversation. I had a similar experience in my last divorce, doing every possible thing to make the negotiations non-confrontational, win/win, etc. My wife's stance was "I get everything", and no amount of kindness, reasoning, or patience could move her. (As you might imagine, the result was a trail of destruction, for me and her both.) I take some solace in this Buster Scruggs quote: "Misanthrope? I don’t hate my fellow man, even when he’s tiresome and surly and tries to cheat at poker. I figure that’s just a human material, and him that finds in it cause for anger and dismay is just a fool for expecting better."