7 ms·

Someone Copied the SNAP Source Code to Github Before Sony Pulled it Down

82 points by wtracy 16y ago

jluxenberg 16y ago
Does anyone know why the source was pulled?
- sudont 16y ago
  I’m guessing somebody leaned on Sony, as this was stated to be an all-in thing for their upcoming product lines, not an "experimental R&D project" as listed now. There’s a couple of major players, namely Microsoft and Oracle; I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple was unhappy with this and moved to keep their skill-bank walled in. Other than that, maybe a pointy-haired boss wanted something like .NET because it sounded more internet-y.
  - masklinn 16y ago
    > I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple was unhappy with this and moved to keep their skill-bank walled in. I would find this surprising: more companies using obj-c means more people using obj-c means more people able to code on Apple platforms, which use obj-c nigh-exclusively.
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      Apple has no problem when people write software for their platforms, as long as it's not portable to other, competing, platforms. If this effort went through, GNUStep could eventually be used to port Mac software to other platforms (Windows included) or to run it against controlled environments that would render iTunes DRM useless, and that's something Apple won't let happen.
      - stuhacking 16y ago
        Nobody is currently preventing this from happening and I doubt there is much Apple could do to stop it. That is to say, Openstep is an open API that anyone is free to develop an implementation of. Of course, this isn't the same as if, for example, Sony directly circumvented or undermined Apple's security or certification technology.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        > I doubt there is much Apple could do to stop it. That is to say, Openstep is an open API that anyone is free to develop an implementation of. I am not so sure. OpenStep (the spec) is probably safe, but that doesn't make sure the rest of Cocoa (which implements a superset of OpenStep) is immune from a patent or IP-related offensive.
      - Andrewski 16y ago
        Are you joking? Cocoa / GNUStep applications have been around for years and Apple has in no way attempted to punish anybody for making them. GNUstep has already been tracking Apple's Cocoa for years without Apple complaining. If you had any sort of evidence to support your wild theory I would be all ears.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        GNUStep is not a viable alternative for developing cross-platform software that is competitive with the tools you use to build Mac-only software. I seriously doubt most software I use on my Mac is just a simple recompile away from my Linux notebook. If you have some evidence to support that, please, enlighten me. If enough momentum is built behind GNUStep and it becomes a superset of Cocoa, it would be rather trivial to build a Wine-like environment for running OSX software on other OSs and that, I am sure, Apple would strongly oppose.
        Andrewski 16y ago
        Obviously Apple's Cocoa and Cocoa Touch libraries are a moving target and GNUstep is tracking those as best it can. There are already people releasing software for both: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNUstep#Ported_from_NeXTSTEP.2C_OPENSTEP.2C_or_Mac_OS_X http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNUstep#Ported_from_NeXTSTEP.2C... Regardless of whether or not they are exactly compatible (some tweaking is necessary) I wonder where you get the idea that Apple would attack the GNUstep folks. Sounds like standard-grade FUD to me.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        > Sounds like standard-grade FUD to me. It's not FUD: it's just sane business strategy. If and when Apple sees GNUStep as a competitive threat (i.e. if a product based on it robs some market share), they'll attack it with whatever weapons they find most effective at the time. As it is now, it's not threatening them and Apple may even benefit from it, so, they'll leave GNUStep alone for the time being. At least that's what I would do in their shoes. As for why Sony halted its project, my bet would be the implicit patent grant in LGPLv2.1. That may feel uncomfortable for someone who needs to cross-license IP.
- gcb 16y ago
  They are afraid of being hit with a lawsuit on multitouch. since apple is suing everyone with two fingers.
- aberkowitz 16y ago
  Perhaps Sony forgot to remove code [0] that leaks new technology [1]. [0] http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-gnustep-gui-library-adding-touch/ http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-... [1] http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/28/sony-fires-barrage-of-touchscreen-patent-applications-only-one/ http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/28/sony-fires-barrage-of-tou...
- olalonde 16y ago
  PR stunt maybe?
kevingailey 16y ago
Is there a reason you'd want this? It seems if Sony pulled SNAP that the "next gen platform" it was to be intended for may not materialize, or may use another framework? What good could come out of this SDK if there's isn't a device/platform to use it on? /newbie question
- joezydeco 16y ago
  Maybe you wouldn't want the competition to see what's in your "next gen platform" just yet?
- rbanffy 16y ago
  Sony's modifications would be available for incorporation into GNUStep (as the ones already released already are).
mgunes 16y ago
For context: http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-gnustep-gui-library-adding-touch/ http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-...
- wmf 16y ago
  This may explain why Sony removed the code; Apple is very touchy about multitouch gestures and implementing them in ObjC must be particularly galling.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    I am quite sure Sony owns a lot of patents Apple needs. It's unlikely Sony and Apple would enter a patent war.
binaryfinery 16y ago
I love "next gen platforms" based on technology from 1986. At least it doesn't use punch cards, I guess.
- glhaynes 16y ago
  Much of the cutting edge today is based on Unix which has been continuously evolving since 1969... if you solve problems well from the outset, you often don't have to re-solve them over and over.
  - zdw 16y ago
    As a corollary to this, see also all the articles on HN about people rediscovering vi 30 years after it was created. How many editors out there lack regex and multiple clipboards, both of which have been around forever in vi? Know the past or you may accidentally reimplement a solution to a problem that has already solved in a better way.
  - prodigal_erik 16y ago
    There are few problems for which unchecked pointer arithmetic is a good solution, and even fewer at the application level. Computers are hundreds of times faster than they were in the NeXTstep days. We no longer need to risk undefined behavior just to get a GUI to keep up with a human. Hell, Eclipse is probably the most bloated Java IDE you could find, and it's only sometimes intolerable on a six-year-old laptop. ObjC is basically Smalltalk weakened by some dangerous efficiency hacks we haven't needed for a decade.
    - wmf 16y ago
      Unfortunately, Smalltalk is basically dead to mainstream programmers (and the image concept never played well with others anyway), so their choice is between safety (Java) and better method dispatch (ObjC).
      - Andrewski 16y ago
        Reports of Smalltalk's demise are greatly exaggerated. Check out RoarVM - Squeak Smalltalk and it's derivatives now run on Tilera. IBM and others are actively working on bringing Smalltalk into the future.
FeathersMcGraw 16y ago
I'm surprised that in discussions I've seen that nobody has mentioned Google TV. As a next gen TV framework SNAP would compete directly with it. It could even be seen as a less resource intensive & closer to the metal response to the Google TV strategy. I think it's far more likely that it was shelved due to internal politics or pressure from Google than any other theory.

82 points by wtracy 16y ago

jluxenberg 16y ago

Does anyone know why the source was pulled?

sudont 16y ago
I’m guessing somebody leaned on Sony, as this was stated to be an all-in thing for their upcoming product lines, not an "experimental R&D project" as listed now. There’s a couple of major players, namely Microsoft and Oracle; I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple was unhappy with this and moved to keep their skill-bank walled in. Other than that, maybe a pointy-haired boss wanted something like .NET because it sounded more internet-y.
- masklinn 16y ago
  > I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple was unhappy with this and moved to keep their skill-bank walled in. I would find this surprising: more companies using obj-c means more people using obj-c means more people able to code on Apple platforms, which use obj-c nigh-exclusively.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    Apple has no problem when people write software for their platforms, as long as it's not portable to other, competing, platforms. If this effort went through, GNUStep could eventually be used to port Mac software to other platforms (Windows included) or to run it against controlled environments that would render iTunes DRM useless, and that's something Apple won't let happen.
    - stuhacking 16y ago
      Nobody is currently preventing this from happening and I doubt there is much Apple could do to stop it. That is to say, Openstep is an open API that anyone is free to develop an implementation of. Of course, this isn't the same as if, for example, Sony directly circumvented or undermined Apple's security or certification technology.
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        > I doubt there is much Apple could do to stop it. That is to say, Openstep is an open API that anyone is free to develop an implementation of. I am not so sure. OpenStep (the spec) is probably safe, but that doesn't make sure the rest of Cocoa (which implements a superset of OpenStep) is immune from a patent or IP-related offensive.
    - Andrewski 16y ago
      Are you joking? Cocoa / GNUStep applications have been around for years and Apple has in no way attempted to punish anybody for making them. GNUstep has already been tracking Apple's Cocoa for years without Apple complaining. If you had any sort of evidence to support your wild theory I would be all ears.
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        GNUStep is not a viable alternative for developing cross-platform software that is competitive with the tools you use to build Mac-only software. I seriously doubt most software I use on my Mac is just a simple recompile away from my Linux notebook. If you have some evidence to support that, please, enlighten me. If enough momentum is built behind GNUStep and it becomes a superset of Cocoa, it would be rather trivial to build a Wine-like environment for running OSX software on other OSs and that, I am sure, Apple would strongly oppose.
        Andrewski 16y ago
        Obviously Apple's Cocoa and Cocoa Touch libraries are a moving target and GNUstep is tracking those as best it can. There are already people releasing software for both: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNUstep#Ported_from_NeXTSTEP.2C_OPENSTEP.2C_or_Mac_OS_X http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNUstep#Ported_from_NeXTSTEP.2C... Regardless of whether or not they are exactly compatible (some tweaking is necessary) I wonder where you get the idea that Apple would attack the GNUstep folks. Sounds like standard-grade FUD to me.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        > Sounds like standard-grade FUD to me. It's not FUD: it's just sane business strategy. If and when Apple sees GNUStep as a competitive threat (i.e. if a product based on it robs some market share), they'll attack it with whatever weapons they find most effective at the time. As it is now, it's not threatening them and Apple may even benefit from it, so, they'll leave GNUStep alone for the time being. At least that's what I would do in their shoes. As for why Sony halted its project, my bet would be the implicit patent grant in LGPLv2.1. That may feel uncomfortable for someone who needs to cross-license IP.
gcb 16y ago
They are afraid of being hit with a lawsuit on multitouch. since apple is suing everyone with two fingers.
aberkowitz 16y ago
Perhaps Sony forgot to remove code [0] that leaks new technology [1]. [0] http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-gnustep-gui-library-adding-touch/ http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-... [1] http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/28/sony-fires-barrage-of-touchscreen-patent-applications-only-one/ http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/28/sony-fires-barrage-of-tou...
olalonde 16y ago
PR stunt maybe?

kevingailey 16y ago

Is there a reason you'd want this? It seems if Sony pulled SNAP that the "next gen platform" it was to be intended for may not materialize, or may use another framework? What good could come out of this SDK if there's isn't a device/platform to use it on? /newbie question

joezydeco 16y ago
Maybe you wouldn't want the competition to see what's in your "next gen platform" just yet?
rbanffy 16y ago
Sony's modifications would be available for incorporation into GNUStep (as the ones already released already are).

mgunes 16y ago

For context: http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-gnustep-gui-library-adding-touch/ http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-...

wmf 16y ago
This may explain why Sony removed the code; Apple is very touchy about multitouch gestures and implementing them in ObjC must be particularly galling.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  I am quite sure Sony owns a lot of patents Apple needs. It's unlikely Sony and Apple would enter a patent war.

binaryfinery 16y ago

I love "next gen platforms" based on technology from 1986. At least it doesn't use punch cards, I guess.

glhaynes 16y ago
Much of the cutting edge today is based on Unix which has been continuously evolving since 1969... if you solve problems well from the outset, you often don't have to re-solve them over and over.
- zdw 16y ago
  As a corollary to this, see also all the articles on HN about people rediscovering vi 30 years after it was created. How many editors out there lack regex and multiple clipboards, both of which have been around forever in vi? Know the past or you may accidentally reimplement a solution to a problem that has already solved in a better way.
- prodigal_erik 16y ago
  There are few problems for which unchecked pointer arithmetic is a good solution, and even fewer at the application level. Computers are hundreds of times faster than they were in the NeXTstep days. We no longer need to risk undefined behavior just to get a GUI to keep up with a human. Hell, Eclipse is probably the most bloated Java IDE you could find, and it's only sometimes intolerable on a six-year-old laptop. ObjC is basically Smalltalk weakened by some dangerous efficiency hacks we haven't needed for a decade.
  - wmf 16y ago
    Unfortunately, Smalltalk is basically dead to mainstream programmers (and the image concept never played well with others anyway), so their choice is between safety (Java) and better method dispatch (ObjC).
    - Andrewski 16y ago
      Reports of Smalltalk's demise are greatly exaggerated. Check out RoarVM - Squeak Smalltalk and it's derivatives now run on Tilera. IBM and others are actively working on bringing Smalltalk into the future.

FeathersMcGraw 16y ago

I'm surprised that in discussions I've seen that nobody has mentioned Google TV. As a next gen TV framework SNAP would compete directly with it. It could even be seen as a less resource intensive & closer to the metal response to the Google TV strategy. I think it's far more likely that it was shelved due to internal politics or pressure from Google than any other theory.