5 ms·

Yeah, this touches on something i believed for a long time but every time i mentioned it i got (at best) push back: we make the software way too localization fr

by Crinus 8y ago

Yeah, this touches on something i believed for a long time but every time i mentioned it i got (at best) push back: we make the software way too localization friendly, when we shouldn't do that because what we end up doing is enabling people create intellectual silos - we enable the division inherent in using different languages. If you had to use software in English, regardless of your native language (and mine is not English, it does not even have a latin alphabet) you'd need to have at least some proficiency with being able to read it which sooner or later make you able to write it. I've seen that first hand: i am 99% self-taught when it comes to English and the only reason for that is that when i started using computers and got interested in programming, everything was in English. I had to learn it, otherwise i wouldn't be able to use my computers. (and FWIW i wouldn't be surprised if a major reason that Japanese programmers are both bad at English and they tend to use their own and/or different software than the rest of the world today does is that they got translated documentation, software and computers from the earlier days of computing - essentially creating an unnecessary big barrier between themselves and the rest of the world)

boudin 8y ago
What you are saying goes beyond software, should all books be in English? Should all content on the Internet be written in English? In my opinion it would create a really sad mono-culture... Each language carry part of its history and culture that can't be translated at all. It would also prevent a big part of the population to access any content. Even if you apply it to software only, it means that a big part of the world wouldn't be able to use any of those. Now, if the software that you need to use to be able to learn English are in English, that becomes even more of an issue... Also, why English in particular? For a huge amount of the world population it requires to learn a new alphabet. It becomes a much more complex requirement.
- Majestic121 8y ago
  Language division prevents a big part of the population to access content even more. Is everyone supposed to learn Chinese to be able to read interesting articles ? What about Korean ? What about Wolof ? Sharing a common language bring a lot to mankind as a whole, and is more effective to create bridges between people than most other means. Local languages are of course welcome and should be kept around for culture, but I do think that refusing to use a common language is a loss. As for why English, well it's a bit late to ask the question imho : English has been picked as a common language quite a few years ago. There was French in Europe before, latin before that, but now it's English. I'm not especially happy about it either, since I'm not a native speaker, but here we are, and it's kind of pointless to fight against it when a big and diverse part of the world population already speak English (diverse is important, having 2 billion of people speaking a language in only one country is not really helpful for a common language).
  - snuxoll 8y ago
    > I'm not especially happy about it either, since I'm not a native speaker, but here we are Many of us native speakers aren't happy about it either, English is a terrible language. I have a 6-year old daughter, and across the years we have spent teaching her language skills I have learned just how messy English actually is. Watching DVDs and reading books about pronunciation rules that quite frankly even I never quite grasped until teaching my own child, it's enough to make your head spin.
    - teddyh 8y ago
      > pronunciation rules Rules? Hah! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaos
  - Faark 8y ago
    > having 2 billion of people speaking a language in only one country is not really helpful for a common language Apparently it is, otherwise we wouldn't be in thread discussing more and more interesting content only being available in Chinese. Users will learn whatever language provides content they want to consume. For me that was English. My parents learned Russian. I'd not be surprised if the next generation learns Chinese, though I'd prefer not having to do so (parents english isn't great). Your arguments for English keeping its spot are kind of weak. It was surprising to read how few people speaking english. Wiki "English-speaking world" states just 500m-1b global and first language is less than 360m, 2/3 of those in the US. Class differences might ensure there is still more content produced in english, but china might catch up quickly and having just half as many speakers doesn't give a good head start. It being close to European languages might help, at doesn't require to learn a totally new alphabet. I would have expected English to get a nice boost due to geopolitics, but am not sure that is the cast past 2016. The US is still highly influence, due to media exports and probably most importantly dominance on the internet. China's firewall/separated Internet might save English. Though it might also protect their own language long enough to start to produce enough content to export... Actually, I just realized how few recent popular Chinese films I've heard of. Guess I'll choose some to download, now.
- Crinus 8y ago
  > What you are saying goes beyond software, should all books be in English? Should all content on the Internet be written in English? Yes. > In my opinion it would create a really sad mono-culture... Each language carry part of its history and culture that can't be translated at all. That history and culture is only relevant to those who are interested in history and cultures, not to everyone. I am not against this, nor against other languages. People can still use English as a second language, i am talking about having a common language so we can communicate with each other, not a single language. > It would also prevent a big part of the population to access any content. Even if you apply it to software only, it means that a big part of the world wouldn't be able to use any of those. My point is that that population should learn to at least read English so that not only they will be able to use the software, but also read the texts from other people outside the silo that their own native language creates. > Now, if the software that you need to use to be able to learn English are in English, that becomes even more of an issue... No, the software to learn English can be in any language. In fact i'd rather see all the effort that goes into internationalization and localization to be placed instead into creating better software, tutorials, documentation and other materials for software that teaches people English. > Also, why English in particular? For a huge amount of the world population it requires to learn a new alphabet. It becomes a much more complex requirement. Because it is already used as i mention by a very large number of people, especially around computers. The alphabet isn't a big issue, as i wrote above, i had to learn it myself and English has one of the most compact and easy to learn alphabets.
  - ssnistfajen 8y ago
    In the future perhaps humans will move towards a more common language but if you answer "yes" to the questions "Should all books be in English?" and "Should all content on the Internet be written in English?" then it isn't any different than variations of cultural chauvinism throughout documented human history. Nobody is obligated to go through the hassle of learning a new language just because someone else wanted that knowledge (volunteering to share, however, is perfectly fine). Otherwise it is a blatant infringement of personal freedom. Multilingualism should also be multi-directional instead of converging towards a single language, but that is obviously something unnoticed by a lot of Anglos who for one reason or another have decided their language and culture should trump over all else.
izacus 8y ago
Sure, but we'll bring software to more people if we localize it in Chinese and have westerners learn Chinese. Less effort. English isn't even in top 4 of world spoken languages, so I have no idea why you chose is as the OnlyRightLanguageToBeUsed(tm)?
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  English has 982 million speakers, 2nd most right behind Chinese. Turns out, a lot of people in Europe and India speak it fluently as a second language.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    300 million Chinese has trouble speaking Chinese, I think you know
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      There are people who speak Chinese outside of China to make up for it, for 910 million native speakers and an additional 200 million L2 fluent speakers. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese
- phkahler 8y ago
  >> Sure, but we'll bring software to more people if we localize it in Chinese and have westerners learn Chinese. How do those two go together?
- Pete_D 8y ago
  > English isn't even in top 4 of world spoken languages By what measurement? Wikipedia gives Mandarin > Spanish > English > Hindi for native speakers[0] and English > Mandarin > Hindi > Spanish for all speakers.[1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_num...

by Crinus 8y ago

boudin 8y ago

What you are saying goes beyond software, should all books be in English? Should all content on the Internet be written in English? In my opinion it would create a really sad mono-culture... Each language carry part of its history and culture that can't be translated at all. It would also prevent a big part of the population to access any content. Even if you apply it to software only, it means that a big part of the world wouldn't be able to use any of those. Now, if the software that you need to use to be able to learn English are in English, that becomes even more of an issue... Also, why English in particular? For a huge amount of the world population it requires to learn a new alphabet. It becomes a much more complex requirement.

Majestic121 8y ago
Language division prevents a big part of the population to access content even more. Is everyone supposed to learn Chinese to be able to read interesting articles ? What about Korean ? What about Wolof ? Sharing a common language bring a lot to mankind as a whole, and is more effective to create bridges between people than most other means. Local languages are of course welcome and should be kept around for culture, but I do think that refusing to use a common language is a loss. As for why English, well it's a bit late to ask the question imho : English has been picked as a common language quite a few years ago. There was French in Europe before, latin before that, but now it's English. I'm not especially happy about it either, since I'm not a native speaker, but here we are, and it's kind of pointless to fight against it when a big and diverse part of the world population already speak English (diverse is important, having 2 billion of people speaking a language in only one country is not really helpful for a common language).
- snuxoll 8y ago
  > I'm not especially happy about it either, since I'm not a native speaker, but here we are Many of us native speakers aren't happy about it either, English is a terrible language. I have a 6-year old daughter, and across the years we have spent teaching her language skills I have learned just how messy English actually is. Watching DVDs and reading books about pronunciation rules that quite frankly even I never quite grasped until teaching my own child, it's enough to make your head spin.
  - teddyh 8y ago
    > pronunciation rules Rules? Hah! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaos
- Faark 8y ago
  > having 2 billion of people speaking a language in only one country is not really helpful for a common language Apparently it is, otherwise we wouldn't be in thread discussing more and more interesting content only being available in Chinese. Users will learn whatever language provides content they want to consume. For me that was English. My parents learned Russian. I'd not be surprised if the next generation learns Chinese, though I'd prefer not having to do so (parents english isn't great). Your arguments for English keeping its spot are kind of weak. It was surprising to read how few people speaking english. Wiki "English-speaking world" states just 500m-1b global and first language is less than 360m, 2/3 of those in the US. Class differences might ensure there is still more content produced in english, but china might catch up quickly and having just half as many speakers doesn't give a good head start. It being close to European languages might help, at doesn't require to learn a totally new alphabet. I would have expected English to get a nice boost due to geopolitics, but am not sure that is the cast past 2016. The US is still highly influence, due to media exports and probably most importantly dominance on the internet. China's firewall/separated Internet might save English. Though it might also protect their own language long enough to start to produce enough content to export... Actually, I just realized how few recent popular Chinese films I've heard of. Guess I'll choose some to download, now.
Crinus 8y ago
> What you are saying goes beyond software, should all books be in English? Should all content on the Internet be written in English? Yes. > In my opinion it would create a really sad mono-culture... Each language carry part of its history and culture that can't be translated at all. That history and culture is only relevant to those who are interested in history and cultures, not to everyone. I am not against this, nor against other languages. People can still use English as a second language, i am talking about having a common language so we can communicate with each other, not a single language. > It would also prevent a big part of the population to access any content. Even if you apply it to software only, it means that a big part of the world wouldn't be able to use any of those. My point is that that population should learn to at least read English so that not only they will be able to use the software, but also read the texts from other people outside the silo that their own native language creates. > Now, if the software that you need to use to be able to learn English are in English, that becomes even more of an issue... No, the software to learn English can be in any language. In fact i'd rather see all the effort that goes into internationalization and localization to be placed instead into creating better software, tutorials, documentation and other materials for software that teaches people English. > Also, why English in particular? For a huge amount of the world population it requires to learn a new alphabet. It becomes a much more complex requirement. Because it is already used as i mention by a very large number of people, especially around computers. The alphabet isn't a big issue, as i wrote above, i had to learn it myself and English has one of the most compact and easy to learn alphabets.
- ssnistfajen 8y ago
  In the future perhaps humans will move towards a more common language but if you answer "yes" to the questions "Should all books be in English?" and "Should all content on the Internet be written in English?" then it isn't any different than variations of cultural chauvinism throughout documented human history. Nobody is obligated to go through the hassle of learning a new language just because someone else wanted that knowledge (volunteering to share, however, is perfectly fine). Otherwise it is a blatant infringement of personal freedom. Multilingualism should also be multi-directional instead of converging towards a single language, but that is obviously something unnoticed by a lot of Anglos who for one reason or another have decided their language and culture should trump over all else.

izacus 8y ago

Sure, but we'll bring software to more people if we localize it in Chinese and have westerners learn Chinese. Less effort. English isn't even in top 4 of world spoken languages, so I have no idea why you chose is as the OnlyRightLanguageToBeUsed(tm)?

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
English has 982 million speakers, 2nd most right behind Chinese. Turns out, a lot of people in Europe and India speak it fluently as a second language.
- baybal2 8y ago
  300 million Chinese has trouble speaking Chinese, I think you know
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    There are people who speak Chinese outside of China to make up for it, for 910 million native speakers and an additional 200 million L2 fluent speakers. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese
phkahler 8y ago
>> Sure, but we'll bring software to more people if we localize it in Chinese and have westerners learn Chinese. How do those two go together?
Pete_D 8y ago
> English isn't even in top 4 of world spoken languages By what measurement? Wikipedia gives Mandarin > Spanish > English > Hindi for native speakers[0] and English > Mandarin > Hindi > Spanish for all speakers.[1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_num...