6 ms·

The same is going to happen for Apple's "Professional" Macbooks. 2015 I think was the last year they made a decent Macbook? Since then it's been the touch bar

The same is going to happen for Apple's "Professional" Macbooks. 2015 I think was the last year they made a decent Macbook? Since then it's been the touch bar (annoying but functional but potentially useful) and an absolute shit-show of a keyboard.

fooker 8y ago
Agreed. Not buying a new MBP until they have usable keyboards again.
spiderfarmer 8y ago
Yes! I have that laptop and if it breaks I’ll try to somehow buy the same model again. It was perfect. The new ones feel so bad that I prefer the feel of the bottom of the barrel Acer laptop keyboards to the high end Apple ones.
crooked-v 8y ago
I've crossed off all Macbooks from my mental map of future purchases until they fix the keyboard and either get rid of the Touch Bar or make it actually do something useful. If/when my current laptop dies, I have no idea what'd get instead. Probably some other machine with a non-terrible keyboard to turn into a Hackintosh.
- gnicholas 8y ago
  The keyboards seem to be getting better. I can’t stand my 2017 MBP, but the 2018 MBP is noticeably better, and the 2018 MBA (which was refreshed after) is noticeably better than that. My hope is that the next generation MBP continues this trend. As for the touchbar, I’m not so sanguine. I can get by on the base machine though, so probably I’ll just stick with that and avoid the TB that way.
  - ritz_labringue 8y ago
    The keyboard is fixed on the 2018 MBP
    - neya 8y ago
      No, it is not. Check out YouTube, still a lot of complaints, noticeably there's one from unboxtherapy.
    - fooker 8y ago
      Still has shockingly small key travel distance. I have some early symptoms of RSI, so this is actually dangerous for me.
      - gnicholas 8y ago
        Totally agree. I can’t use my 2017 MBP keyboard for more than a few minutes without feeling pain in my joints. As many others have said, it’s like typing on concrete. I’ve seriously thought about selling my computer and buying a 2018 MBA instead, which feels much nicer in the store.
    - feross 8y ago
      Definitely not fixed. My 2018 MBP keyboard failed on me twice already. My friend’s has failed 4 times. A third friend has had no issues. If you get a 2018 MBP, be prepared to take it in for replacement frequently.
- kanishkdudeja 8y ago
  The Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon / Dell XPS line should keep you happy.
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    The X1 Extreme is closer to the MBP and the 2nd generation should be released this spring.
    - tlowrimore 8y ago
      I'm currently typing this response from a ThinkPad X1 Extreme, running Pop_OS. I've been a faithful MBP user, and before that a faithful PowerBook user. My 2017 MBP was the last straw. While I appreciate Apple extending the warranty on the keyboard, it is entirely impractical for me to continue sending my primary work machine away for 5-7 days for repairs.
  - Ingon 8y ago
    One thing which prevents me from choosing these is the screen form factor - I find 16:9 to be really uncomfortable for doing any kind of development work. MacBooks traditionally have 16:10, which is notably better. 3:2, as seen on MS/Huawei, is amazing, but their linux support is... flaky.
    - rietta 8y ago
      I have to admit that this was a bigger challenge that I wish I had paid attention to before buying. I have gotten used to it after about a week though. A little more scrolling that I like but not unusable. For my hardcore coding work I almost never use the laptop screen alone though. Either the laptop is plugged into an external or I am using my desktop rig with 3 monitors.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    I considered both, and ended up buying a Razer Blade Stealth 13 - it's literally a black macbook that happens to run windows. The quality is definitely on par if not better(mhmmmm mat screen).
- nothis 8y ago
  I'm in the same boat but it's really bitter since there is no real competition, is there? I don't want to switch to Linux (sorry, guys!), I don't like Windows and even just in terms of hardware, almost all competing laptops are subtly terrible as well.
rrrazdan 8y ago
It's not just a keyboard preference issue for me. The reliability is shockingly appalling. I buy computers for my startup and it feels painful to buy a MBP seeing that 50% of newer MBPs that we bought had issues with their keyboard. On a professional machine, a visit to the service centre is time and money wasted. Also I travel a lot with my computer and just thinking about all the dongles that I will have to carry means that I am going to nurse my 2014 Macbook as long as I have to.
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  Why would you waste precious start-up budget on overpriced hardware?
  - etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
    For most the main reason is probably that they like macOS.
    - cmroanirgo 8y ago
      yeah. If I could purchase macOS and run it on another laptop (eg ThinkPad) I would. I'm loving my MBA 2013 (8gb ram, 256ssd)... but it is 6 years old and nothing from Apple makes me want to a hw upgrade.
      - headmelted 8y ago
        I gotta be honest here, I get pretty good mileage out of Docker on Hyper-V inside Windows. I don't bother much with Linux sub-system anymore as I'm almost always pulling in containers anyway these days so I might as well just run real Linux in Docker. Obviously there's a bunch of reasons why you'd use OSX outside of being Posix-y, but just wanted to share that it's not the same picture as it was (if you've got Hyper-V on your laptop).
        y4mi 8y ago
        > so I might as well just run real Linux in Docker you mean you'd rather run a HyperV VM which hosts a docker daemon and configure your local docker client to use that VM. (all done automatically with docker for windows/mac) the downside of that is higher power consumption.
caprese 8y ago
Apple is also oblivious because the new model still flies off the shelves.
kmlx 8y ago
personal preference: the current Mac keyboard is the Best keyboard I have ever used for programming and email writing. it is leagues ahead of any other keyboard when it comes to speed and comfort. before the latest Mac keyboard I was a die-hard Thinkpad keyboard fan (x220 none the less). since working on the new Macs it's like I've re-discovered the how good typing can be.
- whieee 8y ago
  Can you elaborate what you like so much about Apple's butterfly keyboards? I've used every Apple notebook keyboard since 2003 and up until 2015 I was pretty satisfied. The only keyboards I considered better were Thinkpad keyboards. The butterfly keyboard to me is completely unusable due to lack of travel and feedback, so I barely use it. It feels like bashing my fingertips on to a flat surface, hoping for keystrokes to register. I prefer to drag my mechanical keyboard along and use that.
  - matwood 8y ago
    Not the person you asked, but I also like typing on the new keyboards. I find I can type faster with the low travel. My fingers tend to glide over the keys instead of mashing them. If you routinely move from a long travel to the a low travel keyboard I can understand an adjustment period. Now when I type on other keyboards they all feel mushy and require so much strike effort that I have to adjust. What I don't like is the well documented reliability issues, and the how loud they were on the 2017 model.
    - lenocinor 8y ago
      This really sums up my opinion too. I feel like, even for many folks that end up liking the keyboards, it takes a couple of weeks to learn not to push so hard on the keys. That's certainly what it was like for me. But I like it now.
actuator 8y ago
For something as fundamental as keyboard, I don't see how they got it wrong. Already the 2014/2015 rMBP keyboards had less travel but still it is good enough. The newer models are so bad that I find them only slightly better than typing on a touchscreen display of a tablet. I don't understand how they even got it to production. Surely, they would have asked developers internally about experience on the keyboard for extended time. Thinkpad X1 carbon probably has the best keyboard in that slim form-factor but sadly despite Ubuntu certifying the hardware, I ran into battery issues. Also, support for Ubuntu in general by other apps leaves a lot to be desired still.
etimberg 8y ago
I just bought a ThinkPad T480 to replace my 2011 MBP that had been upgraded over the years. I couldn't justify spending $3k on a laptop with such a crappy keyboard.
arihant 8y ago
I have a 2015 with screengate issue. Basically the anti glare peeling off with regular use. Solved by removing the whole coating with Clorex cause can’t give in the laptop for 5 days. Dangers of living on the edge.

fooker 8y ago

Agreed. Not buying a new MBP until they have usable keyboards again.

spiderfarmer 8y ago

Yes! I have that laptop and if it breaks I’ll try to somehow buy the same model again. It was perfect. The new ones feel so bad that I prefer the feel of the bottom of the barrel Acer laptop keyboards to the high end Apple ones.

crooked-v 8y ago

I've crossed off all Macbooks from my mental map of future purchases until they fix the keyboard and either get rid of the Touch Bar or make it actually do something useful. If/when my current laptop dies, I have no idea what'd get instead. Probably some other machine with a non-terrible keyboard to turn into a Hackintosh.

gnicholas 8y ago
The keyboards seem to be getting better. I can’t stand my 2017 MBP, but the 2018 MBP is noticeably better, and the 2018 MBA (which was refreshed after) is noticeably better than that. My hope is that the next generation MBP continues this trend. As for the touchbar, I’m not so sanguine. I can get by on the base machine though, so probably I’ll just stick with that and avoid the TB that way.
- ritz_labringue 8y ago
  The keyboard is fixed on the 2018 MBP
  - neya 8y ago
    No, it is not. Check out YouTube, still a lot of complaints, noticeably there's one from unboxtherapy.
  - fooker 8y ago
    Still has shockingly small key travel distance. I have some early symptoms of RSI, so this is actually dangerous for me.
    - gnicholas 8y ago
      Totally agree. I can’t use my 2017 MBP keyboard for more than a few minutes without feeling pain in my joints. As many others have said, it’s like typing on concrete. I’ve seriously thought about selling my computer and buying a 2018 MBA instead, which feels much nicer in the store.
  - feross 8y ago
    Definitely not fixed. My 2018 MBP keyboard failed on me twice already. My friend’s has failed 4 times. A third friend has had no issues. If you get a 2018 MBP, be prepared to take it in for replacement frequently.
kanishkdudeja 8y ago
The Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon / Dell XPS line should keep you happy.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  The X1 Extreme is closer to the MBP and the 2nd generation should be released this spring.
  - tlowrimore 8y ago
    I'm currently typing this response from a ThinkPad X1 Extreme, running Pop_OS. I've been a faithful MBP user, and before that a faithful PowerBook user. My 2017 MBP was the last straw. While I appreciate Apple extending the warranty on the keyboard, it is entirely impractical for me to continue sending my primary work machine away for 5-7 days for repairs.
- Ingon 8y ago
  One thing which prevents me from choosing these is the screen form factor - I find 16:9 to be really uncomfortable for doing any kind of development work. MacBooks traditionally have 16:10, which is notably better. 3:2, as seen on MS/Huawei, is amazing, but their linux support is... flaky.
  - rietta 8y ago
    I have to admit that this was a bigger challenge that I wish I had paid attention to before buying. I have gotten used to it after about a week though. A little more scrolling that I like but not unusable. For my hardcore coding work I almost never use the laptop screen alone though. Either the laptop is plugged into an external or I am using my desktop rig with 3 monitors.
- gambiting 8y ago
  I considered both, and ended up buying a Razer Blade Stealth 13 - it's literally a black macbook that happens to run windows. The quality is definitely on par if not better(mhmmmm mat screen).
nothis 8y ago
I'm in the same boat but it's really bitter since there is no real competition, is there? I don't want to switch to Linux (sorry, guys!), I don't like Windows and even just in terms of hardware, almost all competing laptops are subtly terrible as well.

rrrazdan 8y ago

It's not just a keyboard preference issue for me. The reliability is shockingly appalling. I buy computers for my startup and it feels painful to buy a MBP seeing that 50% of newer MBPs that we bought had issues with their keyboard. On a professional machine, a visit to the service centre is time and money wasted. Also I travel a lot with my computer and just thinking about all the dongles that I will have to carry means that I am going to nurse my 2014 Macbook as long as I have to.

Double_a_92 8y ago
Why would you waste precious start-up budget on overpriced hardware?
- etaioinshrdlu 8y ago
  For most the main reason is probably that they like macOS.
  - cmroanirgo 8y ago
    yeah. If I could purchase macOS and run it on another laptop (eg ThinkPad) I would. I'm loving my MBA 2013 (8gb ram, 256ssd)... but it is 6 years old and nothing from Apple makes me want to a hw upgrade.
    - headmelted 8y ago
      I gotta be honest here, I get pretty good mileage out of Docker on Hyper-V inside Windows. I don't bother much with Linux sub-system anymore as I'm almost always pulling in containers anyway these days so I might as well just run real Linux in Docker. Obviously there's a bunch of reasons why you'd use OSX outside of being Posix-y, but just wanted to share that it's not the same picture as it was (if you've got Hyper-V on your laptop).
      - y4mi 8y ago
        > so I might as well just run real Linux in Docker you mean you'd rather run a HyperV VM which hosts a docker daemon and configure your local docker client to use that VM. (all done automatically with docker for windows/mac) the downside of that is higher power consumption.

caprese 8y ago

Apple is also oblivious because the new model still flies off the shelves.

kmlx 8y ago

personal preference: the current Mac keyboard is the Best keyboard I have ever used for programming and email writing. it is leagues ahead of any other keyboard when it comes to speed and comfort. before the latest Mac keyboard I was a die-hard Thinkpad keyboard fan (x220 none the less). since working on the new Macs it's like I've re-discovered the how good typing can be.

whieee 8y ago
Can you elaborate what you like so much about Apple's butterfly keyboards? I've used every Apple notebook keyboard since 2003 and up until 2015 I was pretty satisfied. The only keyboards I considered better were Thinkpad keyboards. The butterfly keyboard to me is completely unusable due to lack of travel and feedback, so I barely use it. It feels like bashing my fingertips on to a flat surface, hoping for keystrokes to register. I prefer to drag my mechanical keyboard along and use that.
- matwood 8y ago
  Not the person you asked, but I also like typing on the new keyboards. I find I can type faster with the low travel. My fingers tend to glide over the keys instead of mashing them. If you routinely move from a long travel to the a low travel keyboard I can understand an adjustment period. Now when I type on other keyboards they all feel mushy and require so much strike effort that I have to adjust. What I don't like is the well documented reliability issues, and the how loud they were on the 2017 model.
  - lenocinor 8y ago
    This really sums up my opinion too. I feel like, even for many folks that end up liking the keyboards, it takes a couple of weeks to learn not to push so hard on the keys. That's certainly what it was like for me. But I like it now.

actuator 8y ago

For something as fundamental as keyboard, I don't see how they got it wrong. Already the 2014/2015 rMBP keyboards had less travel but still it is good enough. The newer models are so bad that I find them only slightly better than typing on a touchscreen display of a tablet. I don't understand how they even got it to production. Surely, they would have asked developers internally about experience on the keyboard for extended time. Thinkpad X1 carbon probably has the best keyboard in that slim form-factor but sadly despite Ubuntu certifying the hardware, I ran into battery issues. Also, support for Ubuntu in general by other apps leaves a lot to be desired still.

etimberg 8y ago

I just bought a ThinkPad T480 to replace my 2011 MBP that had been upgraded over the years. I couldn't justify spending $3k on a laptop with such a crappy keyboard.

arihant 8y ago

I have a 2015 with screengate issue. Basically the anti glare peeling off with regular use. Solved by removing the whole coating with Clorex cause can’t give in the laptop for 5 days. Dangers of living on the edge.