5 ms·

As a very infrequent gambler (I love Vegas but make it out there 1x/year or less) it has been fascinating to see how playing a +EV game changes my perspective o

As a very infrequent gambler (I love Vegas but make it out there 1x/year or less) it has been fascinating to see how playing a +EV game changes my perspective on casino gambling from "This is entertainment" to "This is work". Three or four times I have spent an hour at a Sam's Town full pay deuces wild video poker machine, where you wager $0.50 per hand and your expected value is $100.76 per $100 wagered. This works out to like $5/hr with perfect play at a moderate pace. This earning rate is one of the least bad outcomes at the casino -- you'd be spending $10/hr on average at a cheap, slow craps table playing the pass-line bet. Now, if you're gambling at the casino and the game is bound to earn you money, this should be maximum fun, right? Not only do you get the thrill of seeing whether the random number generator gave you money, but also there's no real downside because if you play long enough you'll come out ahead? Strangely that's not how it works out. There's some kind of mindset shift between negative-EV-play and positive-EV play. When I'm losing money at craps or blackjack it's like "oh, this is fun, we're rolling the dice, we're flipping the cards, some of us will probably win a bit and some of us will lose money but we had fun." When I'm earning money very slowly at video poker it's like, "uhh, I guess the math is interesting here but I think I have fully understood the spreadsheet and, uh, am I seriously being paid $5/hr to perfectly implement a lookup table? Could I be earning more with Mechanical Turk?". I somehow managed to hit that rare high-variance event once (a natural royal flush, expected every 45,000 hands or so?) and have very little interest in ever playing these slow-burn +EV games again. This in turn kind of makes all gambling boring -- if the +EV stuff isn't worth it, what is the point of any of it?.

Simple_Guy 8y ago
The point is you try to find the opportunities that pay more than $5/hr. Poker for example, is quite fun, more profitable and more social too. The strategy is deep but not yet perfected, so you are constantly learning. fun.
taurath 8y ago
From researching video poker +EV people, their lifestyle and their expected earnings, it seems a terrible terrible way to make a living - at most you’re getting like $40k a year, sitting in a casino in front of the same game for 8-10 hours and making no real choices. It’s pretty close to one of the worst lifestyles I could think of.
- Smithalicious 8y ago
  >at most you’re getting like $40k a year, sitting in a casino in front of the same game for 8-10 hours and making no real choices. Replace "casino" with office and "game" with computer and this starts to sound a lot like a cynical take on many people's jobs.
  - ansible 8y ago
    Yes, except the casino doesn't come with health insurance or other benefits. I think part of it is the allure that the money has been "won" instead of "earned". You are "beating the system", or "sticking it to the Man"... I can't think of why else you'd subject yourself to this un-ergonomic work environment.
    - Smithalicious 8y ago
      There's plenty of other benefits to it. You get to be your own boss, you don't need any qualifications, and being a professional gambler does have a kind of "sex appeal".
    - burger_moon 8y ago
      It also doesn't come with pager duty, stack ranking, working weekends, working long hours during the week, meetings, constant rush to meet deadlines, bad managers, bad coworkers. For people who just want to earn a living and go home it doesn't sound too bad.
    - ada1981 8y ago
      Free soda, watered down booze and second hand smoke.
      - ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
        My father in law is one of these people. Second hand smokers need not apply, first hand is what it takes to succeed. He also gets the ability to walk away whenever he needs a break, for as long as he wants. He has a captive audience who has to listen to his latest feelings on Obama or Big Foot. And a surprisingly amount of random encounters that result in sex. He used to drive taxi, then Uber for about the same take home. But what really makes him stay with video poker is the free gifts from the Casio (swag mostly), and the ~ 100 senior citizen ladies he romantically encounters each year.
tapland 8y ago
Been a poker, black Jack, roulette and side game dealer for about five years before working in development. When there is a +EV game you have to follow an optimal strategy, which really kills the fun and a mistake costing you hours of work will make you miserable. Gambling should really be for fun. Put some money on the roulette table and if you lose you lost and if you win it's enough to get some drinks or do something with the money. It's far more enjoyable to not be there expecting a positive result to begin with. Regulars who try to make an income often seen miserable =(
matwood 8y ago
> fascinating to see how playing a +EV game changes my perspective on casino gambling from "This is entertainment" to "This is work". Exactly. This is why I can't stand blackjack, but love craps. Craps is very little 'work' to have better odds than most other games. Plus it's social, and active (rolling dice, chatting, moving chips). When I used to play a lot of poker I could usually do okay at a casino, but it was so boring.

Simple_Guy 8y ago

The point is you try to find the opportunities that pay more than $5/hr. Poker for example, is quite fun, more profitable and more social too. The strategy is deep but not yet perfected, so you are constantly learning. fun.

taurath 8y ago

From researching video poker +EV people, their lifestyle and their expected earnings, it seems a terrible terrible way to make a living - at most you’re getting like $40k a year, sitting in a casino in front of the same game for 8-10 hours and making no real choices. It’s pretty close to one of the worst lifestyles I could think of.

Smithalicious 8y ago
>at most you’re getting like $40k a year, sitting in a casino in front of the same game for 8-10 hours and making no real choices. Replace "casino" with office and "game" with computer and this starts to sound a lot like a cynical take on many people's jobs.
- ansible 8y ago
  Yes, except the casino doesn't come with health insurance or other benefits. I think part of it is the allure that the money has been "won" instead of "earned". You are "beating the system", or "sticking it to the Man"... I can't think of why else you'd subject yourself to this un-ergonomic work environment.
  - Smithalicious 8y ago
    There's plenty of other benefits to it. You get to be your own boss, you don't need any qualifications, and being a professional gambler does have a kind of "sex appeal".
  - burger_moon 8y ago
    It also doesn't come with pager duty, stack ranking, working weekends, working long hours during the week, meetings, constant rush to meet deadlines, bad managers, bad coworkers. For people who just want to earn a living and go home it doesn't sound too bad.
  - ada1981 8y ago
    Free soda, watered down booze and second hand smoke.
    - ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
      My father in law is one of these people. Second hand smokers need not apply, first hand is what it takes to succeed. He also gets the ability to walk away whenever he needs a break, for as long as he wants. He has a captive audience who has to listen to his latest feelings on Obama or Big Foot. And a surprisingly amount of random encounters that result in sex. He used to drive taxi, then Uber for about the same take home. But what really makes him stay with video poker is the free gifts from the Casio (swag mostly), and the ~ 100 senior citizen ladies he romantically encounters each year.

tapland 8y ago

Been a poker, black Jack, roulette and side game dealer for about five years before working in development. When there is a +EV game you have to follow an optimal strategy, which really kills the fun and a mistake costing you hours of work will make you miserable. Gambling should really be for fun. Put some money on the roulette table and if you lose you lost and if you win it's enough to get some drinks or do something with the money. It's far more enjoyable to not be there expecting a positive result to begin with. Regulars who try to make an income often seen miserable =(

matwood 8y ago

> fascinating to see how playing a +EV game changes my perspective on casino gambling from "This is entertainment" to "This is work". Exactly. This is why I can't stand blackjack, but love craps. Craps is very little 'work' to have better odds than most other games. Plus it's social, and active (rolling dice, chatting, moving chips). When I used to play a lot of poker I could usually do okay at a casino, but it was so boring.