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I think the GP should have left luck out of the question. Real question to ask is: In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance w

I think the GP should have left luck out of the question. Real question to ask is: In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance without luck? Meritocracy is strong in USA just as it is in a lot of western democracies. I have friends that grew up in India, Italy, Mexico, China - where meritocracy takes a backseat.

andrepd 8y ago
>Real question to ask is: In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance without luck? None. Pure meritocracy is an illusion; there's just too much stuff going on so that your success is attributable to your work alone, and inversely there is no place in the world where hard work guarantees success. >Meritocracy is strong in USA just as it is in a lot of western democracies. I have friends that grew up in India, Italy, Mexico, China - where meritocracy takes a backseat. See e.g. https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/medios/44582910.pdf https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/medios/44582910.pdf . USA has a similar level of intergenerational income correlation has Italy (that is, one of the highest among OECD countries).
- spectramax 8y ago
  > None. Pure meritocracy is an illusion; there's just too much stuff going on so that your success is attributable to your work alone, and inversely there is no place in the world where hard work guarantees success. I think you missed my point. I wasn't looking for an answer. You're right, luck is always involved in serendipitous opportunities and discovery. My point was to correct the parent comment and ask the question in reverse. Even better is to raise the question: "In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance with least amount of luck?"
joe_the_user 8y ago
My simplistic Googling shows a claim that the US social mobility actually is low for nations among the OECD - but Italy indeed (slightly) lower. https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/ https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobi... The economist claims Americans overestimate social mobility in their country while Europeans tend to underestimate it. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/american...

andrepd 8y ago

>Real question to ask is: In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance without luck? None. Pure meritocracy is an illusion; there's just too much stuff going on so that your success is attributable to your work alone, and inversely there is no place in the world where hard work guarantees success. >Meritocracy is strong in USA just as it is in a lot of western democracies. I have friends that grew up in India, Italy, Mexico, China - where meritocracy takes a backseat. See e.g. https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/medios/44582910.pdf https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/medios/44582910.pdf . USA has a similar level of intergenerational income correlation has Italy (that is, one of the highest among OECD countries).

spectramax 8y ago
> None. Pure meritocracy is an illusion; there's just too much stuff going on so that your success is attributable to your work alone, and inversely there is no place in the world where hard work guarantees success. I think you missed my point. I wasn't looking for an answer. You're right, luck is always involved in serendipitous opportunities and discovery. My point was to correct the parent comment and ask the question in reverse. Even better is to raise the question: "In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance with least amount of luck?"

joe_the_user 8y ago

My simplistic Googling shows a claim that the US social mobility actually is low for nations among the OECD - but Italy indeed (slightly) lower. https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/ https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobi... The economist claims Americans overestimate social mobility in their country while Europeans tend to underestimate it. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/american...