9 ms·

Say what you want about our country's current state but stories like this is what makes America great (minus the fact the kid and his family was homeless to beg

Say what you want about our country's current state but stories like this is what makes America great (minus the fact the kid and his family was homeless to begin with). It's not who you know but your talent (and some luck) that get's you recognized and can change your life. Sure, this sounds naive and a lot times, this doesn't play out. But these stories are still aspiring and reminds me of the American dream we once had. E: I kind of enjoy watching the fluctuation of the rating on this post between positive and negative. Shows the drastic difference in mentality here. Am I saying the US is perfect? No. There is a lot we can improve, and my political (social or economic) tendency leans pretty left to begin with. But you are very wrong if you think there is no mobility or opportunity here in the US, even with the current political environment. I am an anecdotal data point, but as a first generation immigrant that grew up in poverty here, I am pretty certain I would not be in the lower middle class if it wasn't for the American dream. Every single relative within my generation that immigrated to the US are now heavily educated and work decent jobs to provide for our families. There is a lot of social policies we can borrow from other countries to improve our social justice within our country. But the fact that many people here are not even reflective with the possible opportunities here currently is kind if of saddening to me.

moomin 8y ago
And if he had a cold the day of the competition, came second, didn’t become the subject of a news article and remained homeless? The article itself points out this exact problem. We’ve replaced the American Dream with the American Lottery, where only the truly lucky get to change their circumstance. Otherwise, any study will tell you American has way lower levels of social mobility than Europe. If you want talent to be rewarded, the European Reality beats the American Dream very time.
- paulgb 8y ago
  Not to mention all the other kids out there who don’t play chess but could make amazing contributions to society if they had access to the education they needed.
- crushcrashcrush 8y ago
  Great point. This is also the reason we can't pass meaningful taxes on the wealthy - including cap gains. Because everyone in the US believes they'll one day be a millionaire.
  - tuesdayrain 8y ago
    I don't find that to be true from my conversations about this topic. The people I've talked to are afraid of increasing taxes on the wealthy because they're afraid that the wealthy will just choose to relocate to another country, potentially even taking businesses with them.
    - crushcrashcrush 8y ago
      Different circles! I think the line of thinking you've brought up is a method of control to never enact meaningful tax policy; but I understand the thinking.
    - moomin 8y ago
      It’s worth bearing in mind this is literally a talking point thought up and promoted by the rich. There have been studies in this. They suggest the exact opposite: there just aren’t many Saverins in the world. Equally, business location seems to have very little to do with personal taxation. This all funnels down to a fundamental misunderstanding of the source of wealth: it starts with a working economy where people buy stuff and work. The rich, like it or not, don’t do much of either relative to their wealth.
- Hydraulix989 8y ago
  Or if he wasn't picked up (or should I say, editorialized) by the New York Times? Or if how we treat our "refugees" that are homeless vs. our own citizens who are also homeless wasn't a highly-politicized issue du jour? GoFundMe isn't a social safety net. Overly wealthy donors dolling out six-figure handouts and spare prime-Manhattan bedrooms as pocket change at their own discretion to this kid isn't scalable either. We shouldn't treat one-off's like this that tug at our heart strings as social progress. Just take a walk down Market Street and realize that there is still a mountainous amount of work to be done. And it can be done. In modern, developed countries like South Korea, there is not a single homeless person. Come on, America! I am very privileged; I didn't have to become a state chess champion against all odds in order to have basic shelter.
  - Pharmakon 8y ago
    South Korea, as of last count, has 11,400 homeless people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeles... It is a tiny fraction of the total population, and an achievement, so why bullshit about it? As for “our own kind” I’m not going to touch that for love or money.
    - kgwgk 8y ago
      Maybe the parent comment was thinking of North Korea. https://www.upi.com/North-Korean-defector-says-no-homelessness-in-Pyongyang/8801457150974/ https://www.upi.com/North-Korean-defector-says-no-homelessne...
      - Pharmakon 8y ago
        That’s even worse, akin to countries that claim there are no gay people there because it’s ideologically inconvenient to admit otherwise, or anyone “out” is summarily executed. Having said that the previous poster specified “modern developed countries like...” so I doubt it was meant to be DRPK rather than the claimed ROK.
- DFHippie 8y ago
  typo: s/very/every/
  - moomin 8y ago
    Meh, sadly too late to correct.
eastendguy 8y ago
I guess in pretty much every country on earth you will get an apartment and more if you are a chess champion.
- modriano 8y ago
  > if you are a chess champion. who also gets written about in that nation's premier newspaper, and that story inspires a successful crowdfunding campaign.
- syntaxing 8y ago
  What about the countries where kids aren't even given the opportunity to compete?
fcarraldo 8y ago
In what Western democracies are the right combinations of luck and talent not potentially life changing? The only uniquely American part of this story is that the boy was homeless in the first place.
- spectramax 8y ago
  I think the GP should have left luck out of the question. Real question to ask is: In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance without luck? Meritocracy is strong in USA just as it is in a lot of western democracies. I have friends that grew up in India, Italy, Mexico, China - where meritocracy takes a backseat.
  - andrepd 8y ago
    >Real question to ask is: In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance without luck? None. Pure meritocracy is an illusion; there's just too much stuff going on so that your success is attributable to your work alone, and inversely there is no place in the world where hard work guarantees success. >Meritocracy is strong in USA just as it is in a lot of western democracies. I have friends that grew up in India, Italy, Mexico, China - where meritocracy takes a backseat. See e.g. https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/medios/44582910.pdf https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/medios/44582910.pdf . USA has a similar level of intergenerational income correlation has Italy (that is, one of the highest among OECD countries).
    - spectramax 8y ago
      > None. Pure meritocracy is an illusion; there's just too much stuff going on so that your success is attributable to your work alone, and inversely there is no place in the world where hard work guarantees success. I think you missed my point. I wasn't looking for an answer. You're right, luck is always involved in serendipitous opportunities and discovery. My point was to correct the parent comment and ask the question in reverse. Even better is to raise the question: "In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance with least amount of luck?"
netsharc 8y ago
To join the other repliers crapping on you, what about the other homeless kids who aren't chess champions? A greater country wouldn't even have homeless kids, because they'd be taking care of them regardless of whether they have talent or not, because they're human beings, goddamnit.
- syntaxing 8y ago
  This country spends a lot helping people, particularly kids in general. This might be NY state laws but we provide shelter, food, and subsidized utility for family with kids in poverty. I have friends who grew up in high risk area and poverty and they were provided with catered education and free college for upward mobility, Though to be honest I am not entirely sure what this family's situation was given the fact they were refugees and been here for a year and I am not sure what the US provide for social assistance.
  - renholder 8y ago
    >This might be NY state laws but we provide shelter, food, and subsidized utility for family with kids in poverty. It seems that way. I have friends in the Bible Belt who receive nowhere near anything like that because those programs, simply, do not exist. We could go into long diatribes of social policies versus the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" mentality but, at the end of the day, it only prolongs the problems that continue to plight the poor/disadvantaged; case in-point: The family that was homeless.
scarejunba 8y ago
Large amounts of charitable giving are evidence that the state has failed in its duty of care. Still, I do think that it's what makes America great. Instead of funding homes for poor people, I can just keep the money to myself and let others spend theirs.
andrepd 8y ago
The fact that, in the wealthiest country in human history, a homeless kid had to: be a chess prodigy, win a championship, happen to receive major media attention, all on order to have access to basic food and shelter, that to me is no cause for pride.
UncleMeat 8y ago
But what of the second best chess player in his position? What if he doesn't become famous? This "gofundme" model of social welfare is terrible. A few people get coverage and have their prayers answered. Everybody else starves. That's not sustainable.
cyborgx7 8y ago
Do people who have "talent (and some luck)" deserve a better live than other people?

moomin 8y ago

And if he had a cold the day of the competition, came second, didn’t become the subject of a news article and remained homeless? The article itself points out this exact problem. We’ve replaced the American Dream with the American Lottery, where only the truly lucky get to change their circumstance. Otherwise, any study will tell you American has way lower levels of social mobility than Europe. If you want talent to be rewarded, the European Reality beats the American Dream very time.

paulgb 8y ago
Not to mention all the other kids out there who don’t play chess but could make amazing contributions to society if they had access to the education they needed.
crushcrashcrush 8y ago
Great point. This is also the reason we can't pass meaningful taxes on the wealthy - including cap gains. Because everyone in the US believes they'll one day be a millionaire.
- tuesdayrain 8y ago
  I don't find that to be true from my conversations about this topic. The people I've talked to are afraid of increasing taxes on the wealthy because they're afraid that the wealthy will just choose to relocate to another country, potentially even taking businesses with them.
  - crushcrashcrush 8y ago
    Different circles! I think the line of thinking you've brought up is a method of control to never enact meaningful tax policy; but I understand the thinking.
  - moomin 8y ago
    It’s worth bearing in mind this is literally a talking point thought up and promoted by the rich. There have been studies in this. They suggest the exact opposite: there just aren’t many Saverins in the world. Equally, business location seems to have very little to do with personal taxation. This all funnels down to a fundamental misunderstanding of the source of wealth: it starts with a working economy where people buy stuff and work. The rich, like it or not, don’t do much of either relative to their wealth.
Hydraulix989 8y ago
Or if he wasn't picked up (or should I say, editorialized) by the New York Times? Or if how we treat our "refugees" that are homeless vs. our own citizens who are also homeless wasn't a highly-politicized issue du jour? GoFundMe isn't a social safety net. Overly wealthy donors dolling out six-figure handouts and spare prime-Manhattan bedrooms as pocket change at their own discretion to this kid isn't scalable either. We shouldn't treat one-off's like this that tug at our heart strings as social progress. Just take a walk down Market Street and realize that there is still a mountainous amount of work to be done. And it can be done. In modern, developed countries like South Korea, there is not a single homeless person. Come on, America! I am very privileged; I didn't have to become a state chess champion against all odds in order to have basic shelter.
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  South Korea, as of last count, has 11,400 homeless people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeles... It is a tiny fraction of the total population, and an achievement, so why bullshit about it? As for “our own kind” I’m not going to touch that for love or money.
  - kgwgk 8y ago
    Maybe the parent comment was thinking of North Korea. https://www.upi.com/North-Korean-defector-says-no-homelessness-in-Pyongyang/8801457150974/ https://www.upi.com/North-Korean-defector-says-no-homelessne...
    - Pharmakon 8y ago
      That’s even worse, akin to countries that claim there are no gay people there because it’s ideologically inconvenient to admit otherwise, or anyone “out” is summarily executed. Having said that the previous poster specified “modern developed countries like...” so I doubt it was meant to be DRPK rather than the claimed ROK.
DFHippie 8y ago
typo: s/very/every/
- moomin 8y ago
  Meh, sadly too late to correct.

eastendguy 8y ago

I guess in pretty much every country on earth you will get an apartment and more if you are a chess champion.

modriano 8y ago
> if you are a chess champion. who also gets written about in that nation's premier newspaper, and that story inspires a successful crowdfunding campaign.
syntaxing 8y ago
What about the countries where kids aren't even given the opportunity to compete?

fcarraldo 8y ago

In what Western democracies are the right combinations of luck and talent not potentially life changing? The only uniquely American part of this story is that the boy was homeless in the first place.

spectramax 8y ago
I think the GP should have left luck out of the question. Real question to ask is: In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance without luck? Meritocracy is strong in USA just as it is in a lot of western democracies. I have friends that grew up in India, Italy, Mexico, China - where meritocracy takes a backseat.
- andrepd 8y ago
  >Real question to ask is: In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance without luck? None. Pure meritocracy is an illusion; there's just too much stuff going on so that your success is attributable to your work alone, and inversely there is no place in the world where hard work guarantees success. >Meritocracy is strong in USA just as it is in a lot of western democracies. I have friends that grew up in India, Italy, Mexico, China - where meritocracy takes a backseat. See e.g. https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/medios/44582910.pdf https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/medios/44582910.pdf . USA has a similar level of intergenerational income correlation has Italy (that is, one of the highest among OECD countries).
  - spectramax 8y ago
    > None. Pure meritocracy is an illusion; there's just too much stuff going on so that your success is attributable to your work alone, and inversely there is no place in the world where hard work guarantees success. I think you missed my point. I wasn't looking for an answer. You're right, luck is always involved in serendipitous opportunities and discovery. My point was to correct the parent comment and ask the question in reverse. Even better is to raise the question: "In which countries can you succeed with talent, hard work and perseverance with least amount of luck?"

netsharc 8y ago

To join the other repliers crapping on you, what about the other homeless kids who aren't chess champions? A greater country wouldn't even have homeless kids, because they'd be taking care of them regardless of whether they have talent or not, because they're human beings, goddamnit.

syntaxing 8y ago
This country spends a lot helping people, particularly kids in general. This might be NY state laws but we provide shelter, food, and subsidized utility for family with kids in poverty. I have friends who grew up in high risk area and poverty and they were provided with catered education and free college for upward mobility, Though to be honest I am not entirely sure what this family's situation was given the fact they were refugees and been here for a year and I am not sure what the US provide for social assistance.
- renholder 8y ago
  >This might be NY state laws but we provide shelter, food, and subsidized utility for family with kids in poverty. It seems that way. I have friends in the Bible Belt who receive nowhere near anything like that because those programs, simply, do not exist. We could go into long diatribes of social policies versus the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" mentality but, at the end of the day, it only prolongs the problems that continue to plight the poor/disadvantaged; case in-point: The family that was homeless.

scarejunba 8y ago

Large amounts of charitable giving are evidence that the state has failed in its duty of care. Still, I do think that it's what makes America great. Instead of funding homes for poor people, I can just keep the money to myself and let others spend theirs.

andrepd 8y ago

The fact that, in the wealthiest country in human history, a homeless kid had to: be a chess prodigy, win a championship, happen to receive major media attention, all on order to have access to basic food and shelter, that to me is no cause for pride.

UncleMeat 8y ago

But what of the second best chess player in his position? What if he doesn't become famous? This "gofundme" model of social welfare is terrible. A few people get coverage and have their prayers answered. Everybody else starves. That's not sustainable.

cyborgx7 8y ago

Do people who have "talent (and some luck)" deserve a better live than other people?