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Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner? I mean, most programming languages have extensive documentation, tutori

Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner? I mean, most programming languages have extensive documentation, tutorials and so on (at least FOSS dynamical languages like Python, Rust, Perl...). From my personal experience and what I can guess about hackers I've talked to for instance on IRC, that's how most guys learned it : the web is full of resources for whoever wants to learn. Now, if for some reason women don't take this road and "need" someone to hold their hand in order to learn programming, I would argue that maybe those women don't have the intrinsic motivation to do so and trying to force it upon them may be a gross waste of time and resources. Not to mention that programming can be a tedious and lame job (sitting in front of a computer all day is often mentioned as a genuine nightmare), so if you have to do it, you'd better love it in the first place.

Pfhreak 8y ago
> Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner? No? Stuff like pointers, for loops, threads, interface design, data structures, idempotency, source control, working on a linux command line, etc. all present reasonably challenging roadblocks for a burgeoning developer, and I think many of us benefited from having someone around to help walk us through this the first time.
- grondilu 8y ago
  > working on a linux command line, That's an interesting example. Sure, I was initiated to the Unix command line at the University, but it was just that : an initiation. I got hooked quickly though so I was driven to learn the rest all by myself (or rather, with the help of the linux community online). I'm sure it's more or less the same for most linux nerds. I may have bought one or two books about linux though, but buying a book about a subject you're passionate about is something normal. You're right that once you want to get into the important technical details, free documentation on the web may be insufficient and you may need to invest in proper textbooks. I still think my point stands, though.
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    I was introduced to Linux in college and I thought, "Neat. Now please put me back into Visual Studio where the real coding happens." I was not hooked. It wasn't until I used Linux professionally that I started to really respect (and enjoy) using the environment. And even then it wasn't until I saw another human using it efficiently. It's one thing to read about how useful it is, it's another thing to struggle with a problem and have someone show you how you could solve your exact problem. Once I had that connection with another human/mentor, seeing my specific problem solved, that's what hooked me. I don't think I could have gotten there with toy/educational examples online/in books.
    - grondilu 8y ago
      > I don't think I could have gotten there with toy/educational examples online/in books. For programming, the available documentation is not just ludo-educational, it's also the official references, like the RFCs and specifications. There is literally no better source of knowledge for computer science. I haven't delved into technical specs very often in my life, but I have at times and I bet most good programmers do it often.
    - akho 8y ago
      StackOverflow / SuperUser are decent for those kinds of demonstrations these days. Better than anyone I worked with, anyway.
- slavik81 8y ago
  I didn't really start programming until I took an intro to programming class in university. I had been taught programming languages multiple times before, but that was the first time anyone explained the underlying systems the language was built upon. It was the first time I felt like I understood what I was doing. A good instructor will also guide you to good learning materials. There's lots of terrible books out there, but I found good books through my classes. Though, it's probably easier to find learning materials today than when I began.
- mayankkaizen 8y ago
  I learned programming on my own. Sure there is a lot to learn in programming. Often you are stuck with a problem for long and there is simply nobody, except online forums, to help you out. Nobody around me is into programming. I am married and have 2 kids. My regular job has nothing to do with programming. I have to spend 3 hours in daily commute. Saturdays are working day. But I still manage to learn programming. I don't understand why women in general need special help or guidance.
  - grondilu 8y ago
    > I don't understand why women in general need special help or guidance. I do, but my explanation is not PC.
    - dogsgobork 8y ago
      You don't need the P there.
    - dang 8y ago
      Ideological flamebait will get you banned here. No more of this please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ddayz 8y ago
  There are many walkthroughs on these concepts as well online
dang 8y ago
Some people learn well that way while others don't. It seems an area of great variance between individuals.
mettamage 8y ago
> so if you have to do it, you'd better love it in the first place. Depends on how much you think anything else sucks. Compared to physical labor you're not breaking your back over things. Compared to other jobs you get paid relatively ok (EU centric view). Compared to some jobs the hours aren't that crazy: hey McKinsey folk! How are you doing? :D Really, it isn't that simple. It depends. It helps if you like it, but a job is a job and if you can perform it, then why do you need to like it? Moreover, did you ever read about the overjustification effect [0]? Long story short, if you like something, you might dislike it after you get paid for it. Also, if you love programming you might be biased in always solving a problem in a technical way. You'd become that guy from the LEGO movie that always screams "SPACESHIP!" [2] Full disclosure: I like programming and sometimes can force myself into loving it [1]. The consequences of loving programming: no social life, no normal diet, sleep rhythm is off. I'm basically just doing one thing as much as possible: programming. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect [1] As a mettamage I have some control over my psyche and I can quite often, but not always, force myself to like or even love things that I initially hate ;-) [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TYJyCCO8Dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TYJyCCO8Dc
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  > Depends on how much you think anything else sucks. Compared to physical labor you're not breaking your back over things. Not always true, sometimes you have to help lift boxes (100lb) carrying hardware with your software preinstalled / ready to be shipped because you work in a small office and paying someone off to do the same task 1 day randomly throughout the different quarters of the year is not worth the hassle.
  - sbov 8y ago
    Yeah, sometimes it gets physical. But I think they're talking about daily, continuous, physical labor that can be very destructive to your body in the long term.
  - jxub 8y ago
    Just work in SaaS ;)
criddell 8y ago
Different people learn in different ways and I think you are undervaluing how a good teacher and some structure can accelerate that process.
lawn 8y ago
The problem for many people isn't the lack of material. It's the difficulty of keeping yourself motivated and do what you need to do. Making a commitment, such as joining a class or education, is massively helpful. > I would argue that maybe those women don't have the intrinsic motivation to do so and trying to force it upon them may be a gross waste of time and resources. It may come as a shock but most people don't work with their ultimate passion. And often even if you start working with your passion you'll have to deal with the ugly sides and you might lose the passion. Sometimes a job is just a job.
- MisterScrooge 8y ago
  Point well made. I have found that to be true from personal experience.
- chongli 8y ago
  It may come as a shock but most people don't work with their ultimate passion. The problem is that people learning programming for the first time, who don't have a passion for it, can find themselves in a class with those who do. I have witnessed, first hand, people who were beginners getting left in the dust by their classmates on a group project and ultimately dropping out of CS/SE entirely.
  - lawn 8y ago
    Yes, I've been one of those who knew programming as well. But the problem isn't that new people join classes. The problem is experienced programmers being in the same class as beginners. I could often just do the assignments myself and skip the rest of the course. The real problem was when I was forced to partner up with someone new.
    - chongli 8y ago
      The problem is experienced programmers being in the same class as beginners. I think the problem is deeper than that, though. Computer science is a challenging field and programming is a discipline that benefits from a large amount of experience. Universities try to sell their CS programs as accessible to beginners yet tend to be very quiet about the extremely high dropout rates. Look at it this way. How well would I do if I enrolled in a fine arts program? I would essentially be a total beginner at drawing and painting. My classmates would include people who have been drawing and painting more-or-less nonstop since they were young children. Is it reasonable for me to expect the same level of career success as these born artists? There may be a lot of jobs out there for people with basic programming skills, just as there may be jobs doing mundane art and design. But I think it's a bit ridiculous for a total beginner to go into an exceptionally rigorous, programming-heavy, academic CS program and expect to do well. The fact that universities try to sell people on this is disappointing, to say the least.
dapf 8y ago
You're right. I find these kind of "initiatives" quite condescending.
krapp 8y ago
>Now, if for some reason women don't take this road and "need" someone to hold their hand in order to learn programming, I would argue that maybe those women don't have the intrinsic motivation to do so and trying to force it upon them may be a gross waste of time and resources. Why would you assume that a programming course amounts to "hand holding" just because a single gender is involved? For that matter, why would you assume the women taking this course are unmotivated? If this exact same program allowed men and women, would you still be casting the same aspersions only on the women, or would you also be implying that trying to "force" the men to program is a waste of time and resources?
- grondilu 8y ago
  > would you still be casting the same aspersions only on the women, Gender is not important here. As a matter of fact, I wanted to edit my post and talk about people in general, but I did not bother. This article was about women. My point is that I have the feeling that programming is something most people learn more or less for free with the documentation available online and with the help of online programming communities. The lack of intrinsic motivation is how I explain someone (woman or man) may need financial support and a IRL teacher.
  - QualityReboot 8y ago
    I think the optimal situation if you're applying to a program like this is to be a self-starter that's capable and interested in programming already, doing the same kind of self-learning that I did online without anyone asking my gender. Then if you happen to be a woman, you can go to one of these events, be the best in the class and treat it mostly as a networking opportunity.
  - krapp 8y ago
    I don't think having someone fund a class or taking "IRL" classes are signs of a lack of intrinsic motivation. Plenty of motivated people have taken student loans to get through CS courses in actual colleges. Nevertheless, the classes being offered here appear to be online, through Lambda School[0]. [0]https://lambdaschool.com/about/ https://lambdaschool.com/about/
prolepunk 8y ago
I would appreciate some handholding when jumping into a new language or framework, so I don't have to waste countless hours in frustration, and I am a man. I don't understand why handholding is bad and why it should be used as an argument against women coding. When men do it, it's called mentoring.
specialp 8y ago
Coding as far as syntax and doing something like codeacademy... yes that is relatively straight forward. But programming like that is not really going to get you anywhere when making a web app for instance. Syntax and programming aside there is a whole stack of stuff you have to know. I did not realize this until bringing a friend to a meetup that was looking to get into software development. He was doing all the online courses and learning Python/JS. But then the rabbit hole of knowledge starts opening up where you realize it takes a whole lot more than that to do anything. Oh that's easy just send a cURL request with header Accept: application/json ..... OK what's cURL, what's a header? So for us that have been in the game it is easier to "learn to code" another language as there are parallels everywhere and you have that baseline knowledge of how things generally work. Just try to explain something that you feel is "relatively straightforward" to a person not exposed to tech... I made the same mistake and thought it was straightforward, it is not as you are making many assumptions about knowledge. I am at the point where I am familiar with a lot of stuff and can Google things I don't know but what if you had no idea what even to search for? That is where instruction helps.
montecarlos 8y ago
I think you're missing the point of Lambda school. Students get access to quality classes and a living stipend so they can focus on learning outcomes.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
From my personal experience and what I can guess about hackers I've talked to for instance on IRC, that's how most guys learned it : the web is full of resources for whoever wants to learn. I would love to learn to code. It's the reason I originally joined HN closing in on a decade ago. (Proof: my first post, the day I joined: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=713015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=713015) But I have found that one barrier to me getting anywhere is a lack of ability to ask questions and get meaningful answers. Men often have male friends that they can shoot the breeze with and casually mention some coding thing and get some kind of reply from one or more people. And my experience is that men don't talk to me that way. I don't have any buddies I can shoot the breeze with who will go "Oh, yeah, that thing is a known issue and you need to do yadda." Men shooting the breeze with me are inevitably hitting on me, even if they are married. I've been here a long time. People here mostly don't hit me up via private email and things like that to just chat about a thing. When I have explicitly said "You can email me to discuss that further." I never get emails to discuss that further. Instead, I get inquiries into when I next plan to vacation in their part of the world and suggestions that I would enjoy visiting their lovely country (and, hint, hint, they would love to have coffee with me should I happen to casually drop by their country on vacay, because that's clearly how desperately poor women who can't pay their damn bills spend their time, globe trotting to hook up with random internet strangers who apparently thought "Wow, a woman speaking to me. She must be looking for sex!"). I've occasionally had brief stints of being able to have casual conversations in a chat environment with a guy who happened to be an IT guy. I found it enormously, incredibly, mind-blowingly useful and valuable to get those casual comments of "Oh, are you doing X? Cuz, you know, X don't work. Did you think of yadda?" But most of the time, I simply don't have access to that kind of conversation. Nearly a decade of hanging on HN has failed to magically give me such access. Anytime I comment on how frustrated I am about such things, I am inevitably pissed all over by people acting like I am making shit up -- because, yes, clearly, this is how you welcome women into the bro coders club, by pissing on them at every available opportunity. I still would like to learn to code. I spend a lot of time online. I think men vastly underestimate how much support they have access to. A small comment here and there by someone knowledgeable can save you hours and hours and hours of time by pointing you in the right direction. As a woman, I mostly can't get access to those types of comments. Men are too busy trying to figure out how to ask for my phone number. I really don't know how to adequately describe the ginormous Wall of China style deafening silence that faces me and that helps keep me poor, unable to figure out coding and a zillion other things that drive me crazy. To be clear, I'm not posting this to just whine about my pathetic life. That's inevitably the interpretation most people make of such comments by me. It's frankly just another means to shut me out, dismiss me and invalidate my points. I'm posting it to try to elucidate the fact that guys have more access to support than they seem to appreciate. I can't join a chat or slack channel and count on getting help because I posted a question. I can count on being dismissed, sexually harassed and treated like an unwelcome intruder. And that's a giant barrier that men mostly don't seem to face. Men can talk to other men casually and get loads of useful information that is simply not accessible to me. If it were, I think I would already be a coder with several published projects. Edit: There are multiple people replying here to A. Tell me "It's simple! Just don't tell people you are a girl!" B. Generally be dismissive, as if I don't have a real problem and otherwise act like I don't have a point. To people here actually interested in solving the problem space here: Please note how shitty it is for all the replies to me to be dismissive, not listen, etc. Please note how such replies are part of the problem, not part of the solution. I'm not planning to engage such replies. They are not useful and they tend to not even be made in good faith. The short version of why I don't hide my gender online: I am trying to make business connections. I cannot hide my gender in person. If I have to hide my gender to try to connect and then I arrange an in person meet-up and they are shocked and appalled to learn I'm actually a woman and I never told them that, this is not going to go good places for my career by any stretch of the imagination. They will feel lied to, betrayed and like I'm not trustworthy. No, they won't want to work with me if I can't so much as admit to the simple fact of my gender. I also cannot even get paid if I do work online and need to hide my full name so as to hide my gender. You can only hide your gender successfully if you are basically posting anonymously and not trying to make real world, meaningful connections. Geez. How is that not blindingly obvious on the face of it?
headcanon 8y ago
I wouldn't equivocate or dismiss classes as "hand holding" - social resources are very important for many people looking to learn a skill. The internet is a messy place and it is difficult to find the correct information without experience. A teacher in this sense acts a curator of information, giving students enough knowledge that they know where to go to learn more, as well as structuring the knowledge in a way that allows the students to learn in the best way possible. Even things as simple as "Check Stack Overflow" isn't a piece of knowledge to take for granted. Also, many people learn best when they can be in a group of other people learning the same thing. This has the additional benefit of developing social relationships. To your second point, not all software jobs are as solitary and asocial as you seem to believe. Pairing, project planning, application product design, are all things that are done with other people. In fact, I am a software engineer and have more than a few days at work where I don't even touch my computer, yet still get a lot of work done. The archetype of the solitary, 100% self-learned hacker as a representative of all, or even most of tech workers has been outgrown by the industry. Even the use of the term "hand-holding" as I've seen it used is a gatekeeper mentality IMO that needs to stop, or at least be toned back significantly. People that don't pull their weight certainly exist, but everyone learns and contributes in their own way.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jimbokun 8y ago
"Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner?" Isn't this true for content covered by the vast majority of all secondary and college courses?

Pfhreak 8y ago

> Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner? No? Stuff like pointers, for loops, threads, interface design, data structures, idempotency, source control, working on a linux command line, etc. all present reasonably challenging roadblocks for a burgeoning developer, and I think many of us benefited from having someone around to help walk us through this the first time.

grondilu 8y ago
> working on a linux command line, That's an interesting example. Sure, I was initiated to the Unix command line at the University, but it was just that : an initiation. I got hooked quickly though so I was driven to learn the rest all by myself (or rather, with the help of the linux community online). I'm sure it's more or less the same for most linux nerds. I may have bought one or two books about linux though, but buying a book about a subject you're passionate about is something normal. You're right that once you want to get into the important technical details, free documentation on the web may be insufficient and you may need to invest in proper textbooks. I still think my point stands, though.
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  I was introduced to Linux in college and I thought, "Neat. Now please put me back into Visual Studio where the real coding happens." I was not hooked. It wasn't until I used Linux professionally that I started to really respect (and enjoy) using the environment. And even then it wasn't until I saw another human using it efficiently. It's one thing to read about how useful it is, it's another thing to struggle with a problem and have someone show you how you could solve your exact problem. Once I had that connection with another human/mentor, seeing my specific problem solved, that's what hooked me. I don't think I could have gotten there with toy/educational examples online/in books.
  - grondilu 8y ago
    > I don't think I could have gotten there with toy/educational examples online/in books. For programming, the available documentation is not just ludo-educational, it's also the official references, like the RFCs and specifications. There is literally no better source of knowledge for computer science. I haven't delved into technical specs very often in my life, but I have at times and I bet most good programmers do it often.
  - akho 8y ago
    StackOverflow / SuperUser are decent for those kinds of demonstrations these days. Better than anyone I worked with, anyway.
slavik81 8y ago
I didn't really start programming until I took an intro to programming class in university. I had been taught programming languages multiple times before, but that was the first time anyone explained the underlying systems the language was built upon. It was the first time I felt like I understood what I was doing. A good instructor will also guide you to good learning materials. There's lots of terrible books out there, but I found good books through my classes. Though, it's probably easier to find learning materials today than when I began.
mayankkaizen 8y ago
I learned programming on my own. Sure there is a lot to learn in programming. Often you are stuck with a problem for long and there is simply nobody, except online forums, to help you out. Nobody around me is into programming. I am married and have 2 kids. My regular job has nothing to do with programming. I have to spend 3 hours in daily commute. Saturdays are working day. But I still manage to learn programming. I don't understand why women in general need special help or guidance.
- grondilu 8y ago
  > I don't understand why women in general need special help or guidance. I do, but my explanation is not PC.
  - dogsgobork 8y ago
    You don't need the P there.
  - dang 8y ago
    Ideological flamebait will get you banned here. No more of this please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ddayz 8y ago
There are many walkthroughs on these concepts as well online

dang 8y ago

Some people learn well that way while others don't. It seems an area of great variance between individuals.

mettamage 8y ago

> so if you have to do it, you'd better love it in the first place. Depends on how much you think anything else sucks. Compared to physical labor you're not breaking your back over things. Compared to other jobs you get paid relatively ok (EU centric view). Compared to some jobs the hours aren't that crazy: hey McKinsey folk! How are you doing? :D Really, it isn't that simple. It depends. It helps if you like it, but a job is a job and if you can perform it, then why do you need to like it? Moreover, did you ever read about the overjustification effect [0]? Long story short, if you like something, you might dislike it after you get paid for it. Also, if you love programming you might be biased in always solving a problem in a technical way. You'd become that guy from the LEGO movie that always screams "SPACESHIP!" [2] Full disclosure: I like programming and sometimes can force myself into loving it [1]. The consequences of loving programming: no social life, no normal diet, sleep rhythm is off. I'm basically just doing one thing as much as possible: programming. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect [1] As a mettamage I have some control over my psyche and I can quite often, but not always, force myself to like or even love things that I initially hate ;-) [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TYJyCCO8Dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TYJyCCO8Dc

giancarlostoro 8y ago
> Depends on how much you think anything else sucks. Compared to physical labor you're not breaking your back over things. Not always true, sometimes you have to help lift boxes (100lb) carrying hardware with your software preinstalled / ready to be shipped because you work in a small office and paying someone off to do the same task 1 day randomly throughout the different quarters of the year is not worth the hassle.
- sbov 8y ago
  Yeah, sometimes it gets physical. But I think they're talking about daily, continuous, physical labor that can be very destructive to your body in the long term.
- jxub 8y ago
  Just work in SaaS ;)

criddell 8y ago

Different people learn in different ways and I think you are undervaluing how a good teacher and some structure can accelerate that process.

lawn 8y ago

The problem for many people isn't the lack of material. It's the difficulty of keeping yourself motivated and do what you need to do. Making a commitment, such as joining a class or education, is massively helpful. > I would argue that maybe those women don't have the intrinsic motivation to do so and trying to force it upon them may be a gross waste of time and resources. It may come as a shock but most people don't work with their ultimate passion. And often even if you start working with your passion you'll have to deal with the ugly sides and you might lose the passion. Sometimes a job is just a job.

MisterScrooge 8y ago
Point well made. I have found that to be true from personal experience.
chongli 8y ago
It may come as a shock but most people don't work with their ultimate passion. The problem is that people learning programming for the first time, who don't have a passion for it, can find themselves in a class with those who do. I have witnessed, first hand, people who were beginners getting left in the dust by their classmates on a group project and ultimately dropping out of CS/SE entirely.
- lawn 8y ago
  Yes, I've been one of those who knew programming as well. But the problem isn't that new people join classes. The problem is experienced programmers being in the same class as beginners. I could often just do the assignments myself and skip the rest of the course. The real problem was when I was forced to partner up with someone new.
  - chongli 8y ago
    The problem is experienced programmers being in the same class as beginners. I think the problem is deeper than that, though. Computer science is a challenging field and programming is a discipline that benefits from a large amount of experience. Universities try to sell their CS programs as accessible to beginners yet tend to be very quiet about the extremely high dropout rates. Look at it this way. How well would I do if I enrolled in a fine arts program? I would essentially be a total beginner at drawing and painting. My classmates would include people who have been drawing and painting more-or-less nonstop since they were young children. Is it reasonable for me to expect the same level of career success as these born artists? There may be a lot of jobs out there for people with basic programming skills, just as there may be jobs doing mundane art and design. But I think it's a bit ridiculous for a total beginner to go into an exceptionally rigorous, programming-heavy, academic CS program and expect to do well. The fact that universities try to sell people on this is disappointing, to say the least.

dapf 8y ago

You're right. I find these kind of "initiatives" quite condescending.

krapp 8y ago

>Now, if for some reason women don't take this road and "need" someone to hold their hand in order to learn programming, I would argue that maybe those women don't have the intrinsic motivation to do so and trying to force it upon them may be a gross waste of time and resources. Why would you assume that a programming course amounts to "hand holding" just because a single gender is involved? For that matter, why would you assume the women taking this course are unmotivated? If this exact same program allowed men and women, would you still be casting the same aspersions only on the women, or would you also be implying that trying to "force" the men to program is a waste of time and resources?

grondilu 8y ago
> would you still be casting the same aspersions only on the women, Gender is not important here. As a matter of fact, I wanted to edit my post and talk about people in general, but I did not bother. This article was about women. My point is that I have the feeling that programming is something most people learn more or less for free with the documentation available online and with the help of online programming communities. The lack of intrinsic motivation is how I explain someone (woman or man) may need financial support and a IRL teacher.
- QualityReboot 8y ago
  I think the optimal situation if you're applying to a program like this is to be a self-starter that's capable and interested in programming already, doing the same kind of self-learning that I did online without anyone asking my gender. Then if you happen to be a woman, you can go to one of these events, be the best in the class and treat it mostly as a networking opportunity.
- krapp 8y ago
  I don't think having someone fund a class or taking "IRL" classes are signs of a lack of intrinsic motivation. Plenty of motivated people have taken student loans to get through CS courses in actual colleges. Nevertheless, the classes being offered here appear to be online, through Lambda School[0]. [0]https://lambdaschool.com/about/ https://lambdaschool.com/about/

prolepunk 8y ago

I would appreciate some handholding when jumping into a new language or framework, so I don't have to waste countless hours in frustration, and I am a man. I don't understand why handholding is bad and why it should be used as an argument against women coding. When men do it, it's called mentoring.

specialp 8y ago

Coding as far as syntax and doing something like codeacademy... yes that is relatively straight forward. But programming like that is not really going to get you anywhere when making a web app for instance. Syntax and programming aside there is a whole stack of stuff you have to know. I did not realize this until bringing a friend to a meetup that was looking to get into software development. He was doing all the online courses and learning Python/JS. But then the rabbit hole of knowledge starts opening up where you realize it takes a whole lot more than that to do anything. Oh that's easy just send a cURL request with header Accept: application/json ..... OK what's cURL, what's a header? So for us that have been in the game it is easier to "learn to code" another language as there are parallels everywhere and you have that baseline knowledge of how things generally work. Just try to explain something that you feel is "relatively straightforward" to a person not exposed to tech... I made the same mistake and thought it was straightforward, it is not as you are making many assumptions about knowledge. I am at the point where I am familiar with a lot of stuff and can Google things I don't know but what if you had no idea what even to search for? That is where instruction helps.

montecarlos 8y ago

I think you're missing the point of Lambda school. Students get access to quality classes and a living stipend so they can focus on learning outcomes.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

From my personal experience and what I can guess about hackers I've talked to for instance on IRC, that's how most guys learned it : the web is full of resources for whoever wants to learn. I would love to learn to code. It's the reason I originally joined HN closing in on a decade ago. (Proof: my first post, the day I joined: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=713015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=713015) But I have found that one barrier to me getting anywhere is a lack of ability to ask questions and get meaningful answers. Men often have male friends that they can shoot the breeze with and casually mention some coding thing and get some kind of reply from one or more people. And my experience is that men don't talk to me that way. I don't have any buddies I can shoot the breeze with who will go "Oh, yeah, that thing is a known issue and you need to do yadda." Men shooting the breeze with me are inevitably hitting on me, even if they are married. I've been here a long time. People here mostly don't hit me up via private email and things like that to just chat about a thing. When I have explicitly said "You can email me to discuss that further." I never get emails to discuss that further. Instead, I get inquiries into when I next plan to vacation in their part of the world and suggestions that I would enjoy visiting their lovely country (and, hint, hint, they would love to have coffee with me should I happen to casually drop by their country on vacay, because that's clearly how desperately poor women who can't pay their damn bills spend their time, globe trotting to hook up with random internet strangers who apparently thought "Wow, a woman speaking to me. She must be looking for sex!"). I've occasionally had brief stints of being able to have casual conversations in a chat environment with a guy who happened to be an IT guy. I found it enormously, incredibly, mind-blowingly useful and valuable to get those casual comments of "Oh, are you doing X? Cuz, you know, X don't work. Did you think of yadda?" But most of the time, I simply don't have access to that kind of conversation. Nearly a decade of hanging on HN has failed to magically give me such access. Anytime I comment on how frustrated I am about such things, I am inevitably pissed all over by people acting like I am making shit up -- because, yes, clearly, this is how you welcome women into the bro coders club, by pissing on them at every available opportunity. I still would like to learn to code. I spend a lot of time online. I think men vastly underestimate how much support they have access to. A small comment here and there by someone knowledgeable can save you hours and hours and hours of time by pointing you in the right direction. As a woman, I mostly can't get access to those types of comments. Men are too busy trying to figure out how to ask for my phone number. I really don't know how to adequately describe the ginormous Wall of China style deafening silence that faces me and that helps keep me poor, unable to figure out coding and a zillion other things that drive me crazy. To be clear, I'm not posting this to just whine about my pathetic life. That's inevitably the interpretation most people make of such comments by me. It's frankly just another means to shut me out, dismiss me and invalidate my points. I'm posting it to try to elucidate the fact that guys have more access to support than they seem to appreciate. I can't join a chat or slack channel and count on getting help because I posted a question. I can count on being dismissed, sexually harassed and treated like an unwelcome intruder. And that's a giant barrier that men mostly don't seem to face. Men can talk to other men casually and get loads of useful information that is simply not accessible to me. If it were, I think I would already be a coder with several published projects. Edit: There are multiple people replying here to A. Tell me "It's simple! Just don't tell people you are a girl!" B. Generally be dismissive, as if I don't have a real problem and otherwise act like I don't have a point. To people here actually interested in solving the problem space here: Please note how shitty it is for all the replies to me to be dismissive, not listen, etc. Please note how such replies are part of the problem, not part of the solution. I'm not planning to engage such replies. They are not useful and they tend to not even be made in good faith. The short version of why I don't hide my gender online: I am trying to make business connections. I cannot hide my gender in person. If I have to hide my gender to try to connect and then I arrange an in person meet-up and they are shocked and appalled to learn I'm actually a woman and I never told them that, this is not going to go good places for my career by any stretch of the imagination. They will feel lied to, betrayed and like I'm not trustworthy. No, they won't want to work with me if I can't so much as admit to the simple fact of my gender. I also cannot even get paid if I do work online and need to hide my full name so as to hide my gender. You can only hide your gender successfully if you are basically posting anonymously and not trying to make real world, meaningful connections. Geez. How is that not blindingly obvious on the face of it?

headcanon 8y ago

I wouldn't equivocate or dismiss classes as "hand holding" - social resources are very important for many people looking to learn a skill. The internet is a messy place and it is difficult to find the correct information without experience. A teacher in this sense acts a curator of information, giving students enough knowledge that they know where to go to learn more, as well as structuring the knowledge in a way that allows the students to learn in the best way possible. Even things as simple as "Check Stack Overflow" isn't a piece of knowledge to take for granted. Also, many people learn best when they can be in a group of other people learning the same thing. This has the additional benefit of developing social relationships. To your second point, not all software jobs are as solitary and asocial as you seem to believe. Pairing, project planning, application product design, are all things that are done with other people. In fact, I am a software engineer and have more than a few days at work where I don't even touch my computer, yet still get a lot of work done. The archetype of the solitary, 100% self-learned hacker as a representative of all, or even most of tech workers has been outgrown by the industry. Even the use of the term "hand-holding" as I've seen it used is a gatekeeper mentality IMO that needs to stop, or at least be toned back significantly. People that don't pull their weight certainly exist, but everyone learns and contributes in their own way.

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jimbokun 8y ago

"Isn't programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner?" Isn't this true for content covered by the vast majority of all secondary and college courses?