8 ms·

I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal jus

I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.

insertcredit 8y ago
Also much lower IQs in the US prison population compared to Norway's. Combine that with the gangs in the US that effectively rule the prison system - is there such a thing as a shot caller in Norway ? - and there is no hope for any sort of rehabilitation to take place.
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  Maybe if we actually took care of people ant taught them how to make a living on their own, they wouldn't have to rely on gangs for protection.
  - ausjke 8y ago
    statistically there will always be 6%(roughly) people that are going to do bad things no matter what you do, I think it is math.
    - hannasanarion 8y ago
      Boy it sure is convenient that 6% of Americans are black males, huh?
      - ausjke 8y ago
        haha, never thought about that, I actually read this somewhere(could be 7%, or 5% too), sorry for politically insensitive, I guess everyone has to watch their mouth in this country these days.
- femiagbabiaka 8y ago
  You could not possibly have any proof to back up this racist statement.
  - insertcredit 8y ago
    The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_States_test_scores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....
    - simonh 8y ago
      It's disputed that it's due to race, there's a good argument that it's due to culture and culture can change.
      - insertcredit 8y ago
        The cause of the black-white IQ gap is not relevant to this thread - not sure why you brought it up - . The fact is that the gap exists and of course one would expect it to exist in the US prison population too thus the rest of my argument naturally follows. The crux of the matter being that rehabilitation works for Norway today but wouldn't work for US (today-near future). Cultural changes to raise IQs enough to be represented in the US prison population - sounds like a moon shot - is an entirely different discussion. Keep the downvotes coming!
        simonh 8y ago
        If the cause is cultural, then it's not inherent and is tractable to change through education and is not an obstacle to rehabilitation. It's just a behaviour, not an innate trait.
- dang 8y ago
  If you continue to take HN threads further into flamewar hell, we will ban you. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: actually, you've been breaking the site guidelines so badly and so consistently that I've banned this account until we get some indication that you sincerely want to use HN as intended.
  - insertcredit 8y ago
    Please go ahead and delete all my posts too, including this account. I'm done here.
rtpg 8y ago
Why do you think the intention to rehabilitate in the US isn’t sincere? Frontline did a report on people on parole. It’s a punishing system, even when you’re out of the systems you’re usually one drink away from being thrown back in It’s a very good example of something where all the individual players are trying, but so much of how the system works makes results be harsh and cruel
- lukeschlather 8y ago
  Much of the system (including punishing probation) is designed to give racists a lot of discretion to oppress ethnic groups they dislike. Intention of rank-and-file may be to rehabilitate, but that doesn't matter if the intention of the lawmakers and higher-ups is to keep certain ethnic groups in jail (while maintaining a pretense of impartiality.)
  - ghomrassen 8y ago
    What racists?
    - thinkloop 8y ago
      Nixon, the drug war, and lots of little laws that aim to harass and incarcerate blacks were enacted, and still exist, purely out of racism. There are audio recordings that prove the intention. Many more recent policies do the same as well, but less overtly.
      - tacotime 8y ago
        "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." -former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-ri...
charlesbradshaw 8y ago
What does homogeneous have to do with prison rehabilitation? I'm not attacking you, genuinely curious.
- zachr 8y ago
  The implication is reduction of bad intent due to in-group/out-group discrimination (i.e. racism, classism, other -isms)
- CalRobert 8y ago
  If I think "that guy/girl in prison could be my neighbour, cousin, god help me even my kid" I will care about them and want them to be rehabilitated. They're a relatable person to me. If I think "it's one of those people from the other side of the tracks" it won't feel like a person with whom I could have a close connection. I might not care as much. Not saying it's a good thing, though.
  - sangnoir 8y ago
    > I might not care as much I'd say you would care too much! (abstract/general 'you', not @CalRobert). The problem any sort of reform faces is antipathy, not apathy.
- sangnoir 8y ago
  The unstated argument to all the homogeneity arguments I've come across (intended or not) is: "We are too bigoted for that to work here, we'd never allow the $OUTGROUP to have it that good", with a side-dish of "they'd be bigoted too, if they weren't homogeneous". When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance.
  - CarlSchmitt 8y ago
    > When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance. Or you could say that it's an appeal to numerous studies (psychological and sociological), most of human history, and prudence...
  - anongraddebt 8y ago
make3 8y ago
maybe not in purpose, but thin vailed racism here, saying non white people don't want to really be readapted

insertcredit 8y ago

Also much lower IQs in the US prison population compared to Norway's. Combine that with the gangs in the US that effectively rule the prison system - is there such a thing as a shot caller in Norway ? - and there is no hope for any sort of rehabilitation to take place.

hannasanarion 8y ago
Maybe if we actually took care of people ant taught them how to make a living on their own, they wouldn't have to rely on gangs for protection.
- ausjke 8y ago
  statistically there will always be 6%(roughly) people that are going to do bad things no matter what you do, I think it is math.
  - hannasanarion 8y ago
    Boy it sure is convenient that 6% of Americans are black males, huh?
    - ausjke 8y ago
      haha, never thought about that, I actually read this somewhere(could be 7%, or 5% too), sorry for politically insensitive, I guess everyone has to watch their mouth in this country these days.
femiagbabiaka 8y ago
You could not possibly have any proof to back up this racist statement.
- insertcredit 8y ago
  The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_States_test_scores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....
  - simonh 8y ago
    It's disputed that it's due to race, there's a good argument that it's due to culture and culture can change.
    - insertcredit 8y ago
      The cause of the black-white IQ gap is not relevant to this thread - not sure why you brought it up - . The fact is that the gap exists and of course one would expect it to exist in the US prison population too thus the rest of my argument naturally follows. The crux of the matter being that rehabilitation works for Norway today but wouldn't work for US (today-near future). Cultural changes to raise IQs enough to be represented in the US prison population - sounds like a moon shot - is an entirely different discussion. Keep the downvotes coming!
      - simonh 8y ago
        If the cause is cultural, then it's not inherent and is tractable to change through education and is not an obstacle to rehabilitation. It's just a behaviour, not an innate trait.
dang 8y ago
If you continue to take HN threads further into flamewar hell, we will ban you. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: actually, you've been breaking the site guidelines so badly and so consistently that I've banned this account until we get some indication that you sincerely want to use HN as intended.
- insertcredit 8y ago
  Please go ahead and delete all my posts too, including this account. I'm done here.

rtpg 8y ago

Why do you think the intention to rehabilitate in the US isn’t sincere? Frontline did a report on people on parole. It’s a punishing system, even when you’re out of the systems you’re usually one drink away from being thrown back in It’s a very good example of something where all the individual players are trying, but so much of how the system works makes results be harsh and cruel

lukeschlather 8y ago
Much of the system (including punishing probation) is designed to give racists a lot of discretion to oppress ethnic groups they dislike. Intention of rank-and-file may be to rehabilitate, but that doesn't matter if the intention of the lawmakers and higher-ups is to keep certain ethnic groups in jail (while maintaining a pretense of impartiality.)
- ghomrassen 8y ago
  What racists?
  - thinkloop 8y ago
    Nixon, the drug war, and lots of little laws that aim to harass and incarcerate blacks were enacted, and still exist, purely out of racism. There are audio recordings that prove the intention. Many more recent policies do the same as well, but less overtly.
    - tacotime 8y ago
      "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." -former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-ri...

charlesbradshaw 8y ago

What does homogeneous have to do with prison rehabilitation? I'm not attacking you, genuinely curious.

zachr 8y ago
The implication is reduction of bad intent due to in-group/out-group discrimination (i.e. racism, classism, other -isms)
CalRobert 8y ago
If I think "that guy/girl in prison could be my neighbour, cousin, god help me even my kid" I will care about them and want them to be rehabilitated. They're a relatable person to me. If I think "it's one of those people from the other side of the tracks" it won't feel like a person with whom I could have a close connection. I might not care as much. Not saying it's a good thing, though.
- sangnoir 8y ago
  > I might not care as much I'd say you would care too much! (abstract/general 'you', not @CalRobert). The problem any sort of reform faces is antipathy, not apathy.
sangnoir 8y ago
The unstated argument to all the homogeneity arguments I've come across (intended or not) is: "We are too bigoted for that to work here, we'd never allow the $OUTGROUP to have it that good", with a side-dish of "they'd be bigoted too, if they weren't homogeneous". When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance.
- CarlSchmitt 8y ago
  > When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance. Or you could say that it's an appeal to numerous studies (psychological and sociological), most of human history, and prudence...
- anongraddebt 8y ago

make3 8y ago

maybe not in purpose, but thin vailed racism here, saying non white people don't want to really be readapted