10 ms·

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitatio

by lb1lf 8y ago

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether it is to a learn a trade or getting a degree (presumably lectures are mostly followed via teleconference). -Counselling is available to help you deal with whatever issues landed you in prison in the first place. -As you near the end of your sentence, restrictions are gradually lifted to ease the transition back into society - lower-security units, daytime leave to report to work, halfway houses where inmates can live a normal-ish life in the daytime but need to observe a curfew in evenings/nights. -After you get out, you have regular one on ones with the social services, helping you find a place to stay, work, family counselling if required etc. -Companies are offered part of your pay refunded by the state for a limited time if they hire you. All in all, I guess it can be argued that our pendulum has swung too far towards rehabilitation - but if the point of prison is to reduce the long-term risk and cost of crime, we're doing reasonably well.

foobarian 8y ago
I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.
- insertcredit 8y ago
  Also much lower IQs in the US prison population compared to Norway's. Combine that with the gangs in the US that effectively rule the prison system - is there such a thing as a shot caller in Norway ? - and there is no hope for any sort of rehabilitation to take place.
  - hannasanarion 8y ago
    Maybe if we actually took care of people ant taught them how to make a living on their own, they wouldn't have to rely on gangs for protection.
    - ausjke 8y ago
      statistically there will always be 6%(roughly) people that are going to do bad things no matter what you do, I think it is math.
      - hannasanarion 8y ago
        Boy it sure is convenient that 6% of Americans are black males, huh?
        ausjke 8y ago
        haha, never thought about that, I actually read this somewhere(could be 7%, or 5% too), sorry for politically insensitive, I guess everyone has to watch their mouth in this country these days.
  - femiagbabiaka 8y ago
    You could not possibly have any proof to back up this racist statement.
    - insertcredit 8y ago
      The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_States_test_scores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....
- rtpg 8y ago
  Why do you think the intention to rehabilitate in the US isn’t sincere? Frontline did a report on people on parole. It’s a punishing system, even when you’re out of the systems you’re usually one drink away from being thrown back in It’s a very good example of something where all the individual players are trying, but so much of how the system works makes results be harsh and cruel
  - lukeschlather 8y ago
    Much of the system (including punishing probation) is designed to give racists a lot of discretion to oppress ethnic groups they dislike. Intention of rank-and-file may be to rehabilitate, but that doesn't matter if the intention of the lawmakers and higher-ups is to keep certain ethnic groups in jail (while maintaining a pretense of impartiality.)
    - ghomrassen 8y ago
      What racists?
      - thinkloop 8y ago
        Nixon, the drug war, and lots of little laws that aim to harass and incarcerate blacks were enacted, and still exist, purely out of racism. There are audio recordings that prove the intention. Many more recent policies do the same as well, but less overtly.
        tacotime 8y ago
        "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." -former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-ri...
- charlesbradshaw 8y ago
  What does homogeneous have to do with prison rehabilitation? I'm not attacking you, genuinely curious.
  - zachr 8y ago
    The implication is reduction of bad intent due to in-group/out-group discrimination (i.e. racism, classism, other -isms)
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    If I think "that guy/girl in prison could be my neighbour, cousin, god help me even my kid" I will care about them and want them to be rehabilitated. They're a relatable person to me. If I think "it's one of those people from the other side of the tracks" it won't feel like a person with whom I could have a close connection. I might not care as much. Not saying it's a good thing, though.
    - sangnoir 8y ago
      > I might not care as much I'd say you would care too much! (abstract/general 'you', not @CalRobert). The problem any sort of reform faces is antipathy, not apathy.
  - sangnoir 8y ago
    The unstated argument to all the homogeneity arguments I've come across (intended or not) is: "We are too bigoted for that to work here, we'd never allow the $OUTGROUP to have it that good", with a side-dish of "they'd be bigoted too, if they weren't homogeneous". When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance.
    - CarlSchmitt 8y ago
      > When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance. Or you could say that it's an appeal to numerous studies (psychological and sociological), most of human history, and prudence...
    - anongraddebt 8y ago
- make3 8y ago
  maybe not in purpose, but thin vailed racism here, saying non white people don't want to really be readapted
slfnflctd 8y ago
It occurs to me that when your program results in a situation where recidivism is "very low", it might become much easier to distinguish those who fell upon bad circumstances from the ones with more deep-rooted mental issues-- like treatment resistant compulsive behavior, or perhaps even more importantly, psychopathic traits. In my view, these are the real dynamos of the 'criminal world', where predatory traits are baked into their behavior patterns at a lower level. There are compelling opportunities for more research here (https://modlab.yale.edu/news/can-psychopaths-be-cured https://modlab.yale.edu/news/can-psychopaths-be-cured) and isolating variables is a good way to help move things forward.
debacle 8y ago
There is an inherent racism to a lot of US sentencing and prison policies, as well as an assumption that those who commit crimes are irrevocably criminal. It's a very dated view of why people become criminals.
- wtdata 8y ago
  If we really assume data proves (I never saw a proper argument for that same data that just didn't choose to ignore quite some important other pieces of data) that the US system is intently racist against people io colour, than - that same data - proves even more strongly that the US judicial system is inerently sexist against men. It's the same (flawed in my opinion) argument and the same data, but only one part of it is ever mentioned, which leads me to believe, this is just ideology at work.
darepublic 8y ago
So if rehabilitation is so effective maybe we can 'rehabilitate' people before they end up in prison in the first place :p. How do people end up deprived of education and counselling in the first place, and could that be remedied.
- ewzimm 8y ago
  In many cases, the idea of rehabilitating people either before or after prison is nearly impossible. There are almost half a million people in the American prison system for drug offenses. If someone is released from prison for cannabis possession, they can likely drive a few hours to a place where it's perfectly legal (at the state level), and even encouraged by the culture. How could you possibly rehabilitate someone from something with those kinds of mixed messages?
  - eropple 8y ago
    This is a strange reply. What makes you think that that is what the poster to whom you reply is concerned about? People don't commit violent crimes for weed. The crime is having weed. And things that are not weed are not being legalized state-by-state.
    - ewzimm 8y ago
      The subject is analyzing prison's role in rehabilitation. If we consider prison a failure as a rehabilitation device, then maybe we should focus on rehabilitation before prison. This is a reasonable suggestion. However, if the reason they're in prison is for drug possession, which makes up a huge portion of the prison population, I'm suggesting that any kind of rehabilitation is nearly impossible. With cannabis legalization finished, many states actually are looking to legalize other substances, and even if they don't, there's strong social pressure in American culture to try other illegal substances, leading to a huge prison population. So I'm saying that it in many cases, the problem isn't so much that prison is a failure as a rehabilitation center and we should focus on rehabilitation elsewhere, it's that people are in prison for things they simply don't want to be rehabilitated for and have strong influences to continue doing. The culture is inherently resistant to being rehabilitated from things that it doesn't consider harmful. To use an example that might be more neutral, what if copyright enforcement was more severe and we had half a million people in prison for watching unlicensed YouTube videos? We might analyze the failure of the prison system in rehabilitating people from watching the wrong streams and focus more on education so that people could identify properly licened content before they watched it. But unless the people actually considered this behavior harmful, it would be an impossible task, and we would see ever increasing numbers of people in prison for watching the wrong videos.
everdev 8y ago
> Recidivism is very low. Anders Breivik got 21 years for killing 77 people. Are you worried about when he gets out in 2033?
- eropple 8y ago
  Hard cases make bad law. Focusing on what (to you, as an outsider) seems to be outlandish is honoring the breach rather than the observance. And unlike, say, the United States--there's only been one of him. This country has folks trying for high scores on a very regular basis. (Remember Las Vegas? That was 18 months ago. 59 deaths.) Perhaps it is worth looking at trends and impacts rather than media splashes.
- piva00 8y ago
  He very likely won't ever get out. He is allowed to have his case reviewed after 21 years (as it's how life in prison works in some European countries such as Norway, Sweden and Germany, not sure about others) but realistically he will never be out even if he's reformed as it will be a danger for his own life if he is back into the general population.
  - rmellow 8y ago
    UK as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Her_Majesty%27s_pleasure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Her_Majesty%27s_pleasure
- ovi256 8y ago
  Not at all, he'll be way beyond the age window where men commit violent crimes. Old age mellows. He'll also be under close supervision.
  - fivefive55 8y ago
    He'll be in his early 50s. I know plenty of men at that age that could crush me regardless of what statistics say otherwise.
- lb1lf 8y ago
renholder 8y ago
>Rehabilitation IS societally useful. This is very true. As an example, recidivism in Sweden is around 40%[0], compared to around 68%[1] in the states. [0] - https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/crime-statistics/recidivism.html https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/... [1] - https://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm https://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm

by lb1lf 8y ago

foobarian 8y ago

I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.

insertcredit 8y ago
Also much lower IQs in the US prison population compared to Norway's. Combine that with the gangs in the US that effectively rule the prison system - is there such a thing as a shot caller in Norway ? - and there is no hope for any sort of rehabilitation to take place.
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  Maybe if we actually took care of people ant taught them how to make a living on their own, they wouldn't have to rely on gangs for protection.
  - ausjke 8y ago
    statistically there will always be 6%(roughly) people that are going to do bad things no matter what you do, I think it is math.
    - hannasanarion 8y ago
      Boy it sure is convenient that 6% of Americans are black males, huh?
      - ausjke 8y ago
        haha, never thought about that, I actually read this somewhere(could be 7%, or 5% too), sorry for politically insensitive, I guess everyone has to watch their mouth in this country these days.
- femiagbabiaka 8y ago
  You could not possibly have any proof to back up this racist statement.
  - insertcredit 8y ago
    The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_States_test_scores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....
rtpg 8y ago
Why do you think the intention to rehabilitate in the US isn’t sincere? Frontline did a report on people on parole. It’s a punishing system, even when you’re out of the systems you’re usually one drink away from being thrown back in It’s a very good example of something where all the individual players are trying, but so much of how the system works makes results be harsh and cruel
- lukeschlather 8y ago
  Much of the system (including punishing probation) is designed to give racists a lot of discretion to oppress ethnic groups they dislike. Intention of rank-and-file may be to rehabilitate, but that doesn't matter if the intention of the lawmakers and higher-ups is to keep certain ethnic groups in jail (while maintaining a pretense of impartiality.)
  - ghomrassen 8y ago
    What racists?
    - thinkloop 8y ago
      Nixon, the drug war, and lots of little laws that aim to harass and incarcerate blacks were enacted, and still exist, purely out of racism. There are audio recordings that prove the intention. Many more recent policies do the same as well, but less overtly.
      - tacotime 8y ago
        "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." -former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-ri...
charlesbradshaw 8y ago
What does homogeneous have to do with prison rehabilitation? I'm not attacking you, genuinely curious.
- zachr 8y ago
  The implication is reduction of bad intent due to in-group/out-group discrimination (i.e. racism, classism, other -isms)
- CalRobert 8y ago
  If I think "that guy/girl in prison could be my neighbour, cousin, god help me even my kid" I will care about them and want them to be rehabilitated. They're a relatable person to me. If I think "it's one of those people from the other side of the tracks" it won't feel like a person with whom I could have a close connection. I might not care as much. Not saying it's a good thing, though.
  - sangnoir 8y ago
    > I might not care as much I'd say you would care too much! (abstract/general 'you', not @CalRobert). The problem any sort of reform faces is antipathy, not apathy.
- sangnoir 8y ago
  The unstated argument to all the homogeneity arguments I've come across (intended or not) is: "We are too bigoted for that to work here, we'd never allow the $OUTGROUP to have it that good", with a side-dish of "they'd be bigoted too, if they weren't homogeneous". When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance.
  - CarlSchmitt 8y ago
    > When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance. Or you could say that it's an appeal to numerous studies (psychological and sociological), most of human history, and prudence...
  - anongraddebt 8y ago
make3 8y ago
maybe not in purpose, but thin vailed racism here, saying non white people don't want to really be readapted

slfnflctd 8y ago

It occurs to me that when your program results in a situation where recidivism is "very low", it might become much easier to distinguish those who fell upon bad circumstances from the ones with more deep-rooted mental issues-- like treatment resistant compulsive behavior, or perhaps even more importantly, psychopathic traits. In my view, these are the real dynamos of the 'criminal world', where predatory traits are baked into their behavior patterns at a lower level. There are compelling opportunities for more research here (https://modlab.yale.edu/news/can-psychopaths-be-cured https://modlab.yale.edu/news/can-psychopaths-be-cured) and isolating variables is a good way to help move things forward.

debacle 8y ago

There is an inherent racism to a lot of US sentencing and prison policies, as well as an assumption that those who commit crimes are irrevocably criminal. It's a very dated view of why people become criminals.

wtdata 8y ago
If we really assume data proves (I never saw a proper argument for that same data that just didn't choose to ignore quite some important other pieces of data) that the US system is intently racist against people io colour, than - that same data - proves even more strongly that the US judicial system is inerently sexist against men. It's the same (flawed in my opinion) argument and the same data, but only one part of it is ever mentioned, which leads me to believe, this is just ideology at work.

darepublic 8y ago

So if rehabilitation is so effective maybe we can 'rehabilitate' people before they end up in prison in the first place :p. How do people end up deprived of education and counselling in the first place, and could that be remedied.

ewzimm 8y ago
In many cases, the idea of rehabilitating people either before or after prison is nearly impossible. There are almost half a million people in the American prison system for drug offenses. If someone is released from prison for cannabis possession, they can likely drive a few hours to a place where it's perfectly legal (at the state level), and even encouraged by the culture. How could you possibly rehabilitate someone from something with those kinds of mixed messages?
- eropple 8y ago
  This is a strange reply. What makes you think that that is what the poster to whom you reply is concerned about? People don't commit violent crimes for weed. The crime is having weed. And things that are not weed are not being legalized state-by-state.
  - ewzimm 8y ago
    The subject is analyzing prison's role in rehabilitation. If we consider prison a failure as a rehabilitation device, then maybe we should focus on rehabilitation before prison. This is a reasonable suggestion. However, if the reason they're in prison is for drug possession, which makes up a huge portion of the prison population, I'm suggesting that any kind of rehabilitation is nearly impossible. With cannabis legalization finished, many states actually are looking to legalize other substances, and even if they don't, there's strong social pressure in American culture to try other illegal substances, leading to a huge prison population. So I'm saying that it in many cases, the problem isn't so much that prison is a failure as a rehabilitation center and we should focus on rehabilitation elsewhere, it's that people are in prison for things they simply don't want to be rehabilitated for and have strong influences to continue doing. The culture is inherently resistant to being rehabilitated from things that it doesn't consider harmful. To use an example that might be more neutral, what if copyright enforcement was more severe and we had half a million people in prison for watching unlicensed YouTube videos? We might analyze the failure of the prison system in rehabilitating people from watching the wrong streams and focus more on education so that people could identify properly licened content before they watched it. But unless the people actually considered this behavior harmful, it would be an impossible task, and we would see ever increasing numbers of people in prison for watching the wrong videos.

everdev 8y ago

> Recidivism is very low. Anders Breivik got 21 years for killing 77 people. Are you worried about when he gets out in 2033?

eropple 8y ago
Hard cases make bad law. Focusing on what (to you, as an outsider) seems to be outlandish is honoring the breach rather than the observance. And unlike, say, the United States--there's only been one of him. This country has folks trying for high scores on a very regular basis. (Remember Las Vegas? That was 18 months ago. 59 deaths.) Perhaps it is worth looking at trends and impacts rather than media splashes.
piva00 8y ago
He very likely won't ever get out. He is allowed to have his case reviewed after 21 years (as it's how life in prison works in some European countries such as Norway, Sweden and Germany, not sure about others) but realistically he will never be out even if he's reformed as it will be a danger for his own life if he is back into the general population.
- rmellow 8y ago
  UK as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Her_Majesty%27s_pleasure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Her_Majesty%27s_pleasure
ovi256 8y ago
Not at all, he'll be way beyond the age window where men commit violent crimes. Old age mellows. He'll also be under close supervision.
- fivefive55 8y ago
  He'll be in his early 50s. I know plenty of men at that age that could crush me regardless of what statistics say otherwise.
lb1lf 8y ago

renholder 8y ago

>Rehabilitation IS societally useful. This is very true. As an example, recidivism in Sweden is around 40%[0], compared to around 68%[1] in the states. [0] - https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/crime-statistics/recidivism.html https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/... [1] - https://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm https://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm