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In Singapore the health insurance companies have programs to get people to wear health trackers for a discount and people are oblivious as to why this may not b

In Singapore the health insurance companies have programs to get people to wear health trackers for a discount and people are oblivious as to why this may not be the best idea/ alignment of interests.

blastbeat 8y ago
Same trend here in Germany.
mrtksn 8y ago
This, of course, brings in the devices that shake the trackers just right[0], to scam the companies(I remember reading about it being a thing in the USA). I would guess that if this gets mainstream, insurance companies may purchase user data from other apps to cross-check users lifestyle and deny claims where the user appears to be jogging on the insurance app but sleeping according to the totally free and fun sleep tracking app. [0] Phone rockers, like that: https://shopee.sg/Phone-Steps-Tracking-Rocker-i.7049223.951158722 https://shopee.sg/Phone-Steps-Tracking-Rocker-i.7049223.9511...
- robjan 8y ago
  Tbh, the insurance representatives even tell you which fitness trackers are best for gaming the system. Mine said to buy an Xiaomi as it adds an extra 20% and costs a lot less.
  - mrtksn 8y ago
    :) Of course my dystopian scenario holds only if these trackers were taken seriously. Maybe at this stage, it’s just a way to promote a discount.
    - stirfrykitty 8y ago
      I also cannot help but see the dystopian outcome here, especially in a profit-driven system. "Sir, we see your REM sleep is not being fully entered into most nights. Our system has indicated that you buy caffeine and pizzas multiple days a week. This will be reported." "Sir, we are denying your life insurance application because our insurance "partners" have determined you are a risk we cannot afford." Etc., etc. I will never willingly wear a tracker that reports health data. I will never willingly be chipped. Nothing of that sort. I always tell people to pay cash for their peccadilloes. Never use "loyalty" cards, as the info is sold to all manner of companies, including insurance companies. Banks sell "anonymized" data about your buying habits as well. And no one seems to be anything other than completely and utterly apathetic...
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  > the devices that shake the trackers just right I just duct tape mine to my dog while we play fetch.
antihero 8y ago
We have this in the UK, Vitality offer rewards based on your Fitbit (or whatever) step tracking, and also offer to "give" you an Apple Watch and negate the repayments if you achieve your health goals. I don't think it's actually that terrible as long as privacy is respected.
- mcintyre1994 8y ago
  I wouldn't have took Vitality up on this offer for anything but an Apple Watch, but I trust Apple not to give them access to anything behind my back. They also use the workouts feature as input to their point rewards stuff, so it's a pretty good deal.
  - groby_b 8y ago
    Yeah... Apple won't, but the health tracking apps that you'll be asked to install certainly will - many already share with Facebook, without your consent[1]. You won't be getting that Apple Watch for free. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/22/18236398/facebook-mobile-apps-data-sharing-ads-health-fitness-privacy-violation https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/22/18236398/facebook-mobile-...
- untog 8y ago
  This same thing exists in the US, too. Except even more nefarious, because it can affect your health insurance premiums.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    The company where I work recently changed health insurance providers. Reps from the new company pushed this stuff HARD, along with their program for using an app to get basic health care from some random remote doctor. To the best of my knowledge, exactly nobody was interested in these programs.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  > I don't think it's actually that terrible as long as privacy is respected. Surely we're well past the point of pretending that will happen?
OscarTheGrinch 8y ago
This trend towards manditory quantified health risks discrimination aginst chronically unwell people. Your data, even from healthy employees, is being weilded by unaccountable corporate goons to disenfranchise people, like digital star of David.
- tomp 8y ago
  > risks discrimination aginst chronically unwell people Technically it's not discrimination, they actually cost more, and their insurance would therefore be more expensive, in a free market. To the extent that the society values "fairness" and wants to help those people, government / non-free-market solutions are needed, with the society paying for them collectively.
  - Tarq0n 8y ago
    The whole point of insurance, especially health insurance, is collectivizing risk. Otherwise you might as well put the money in a savings account.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      There’s a gray area where insurance goes from protecting against unpredictable losses to becoming a subsidy from those experiencing fewer losses to those experiencing more losses. In a true insurance market, people’s entire health is not insurable, since it’s guaranteed to have losses therefore it’s simply a subsidy from those who are not currently experiencing losses to those who are. What would be more akin to actual insurance is insuring specific events within a specific timeframe, such as broken bones from year x to year y, and then the insurance can charge more to people who play sports versus people who don’t, since obviously they would experience more losses, just like people who drive more pay more for auto insurance. However, this all gets murky with our requirement to force everyone to be provided with healthcare and people being in control of some things about their health (via diet and lifestyle) and not others (genetics, environment) and the inability to tease out causal factors. The primary purpose of health “insurance” in today’s world is to serve as an agent for the buyer since the buyer typically has no idea about what they’re buying from healthcare providers and at what cost, so theoretically, the doctors, pharmacists, and statisticians employed by insurance companies can do proper vetting of treatments for the patient.
tjpnz 8y ago
They were doing this to teachers in the US except in their case it was mandatory in order to just be insured.
tsukurimashou 8y ago
They do the same in France for car insurance, they give you a box you put in your car, which has at the very least a GPS module (but most probably have tons of other sensors) I think they are mostly targeting young drivers for which insurance can be pretty expensive, and knowing well that most young adults these days don't care much about privacy
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Some US companies do this, too. The unfortunate part is that, if we could trust that the data would be handled correctly (not wide-open to hackers, not used for other purposes like advertising/marketing) this would be an improvement in the efficiency of the insurance industry.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    I assume everyone who uses mobile networks has their location data being stored, shared, and sold by the mobile network companies. I assume government agencies and other people in positions of power can easily get identifiable information, and advertisers or other businesses can purchase "anonymized" information. At this point, I'm not sure what else is left to protect. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/06/verizon-and-att-will-stop-selling-your-phones-location-to-data-brokers/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/06/verizon-and-att-... They claim they're stopping, but I don't see why I should believe them.
    - gruez 8y ago
      Mobile network location data is much more coarse than GPS data, so there's "that" to protect.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
        Are you sure? If the data in question also covers WiFi signals, which include the signals emitted by every phone near you, then I'm not sure the data really is that coarse.
_pmf_ 8y ago
> people are oblivious as to why this may not be the best idea/ alignment of interests Or they perceive it to be better than blanket profiling by race, gender and age.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  No they are oblivious. I've asked more people than I can remember and all of their responses were a variation of "free stuff".

blastbeat 8y ago

Same trend here in Germany.

mrtksn 8y ago

This, of course, brings in the devices that shake the trackers just right[0], to scam the companies(I remember reading about it being a thing in the USA). I would guess that if this gets mainstream, insurance companies may purchase user data from other apps to cross-check users lifestyle and deny claims where the user appears to be jogging on the insurance app but sleeping according to the totally free and fun sleep tracking app. [0] Phone rockers, like that: https://shopee.sg/Phone-Steps-Tracking-Rocker-i.7049223.951158722 https://shopee.sg/Phone-Steps-Tracking-Rocker-i.7049223.9511...

robjan 8y ago
Tbh, the insurance representatives even tell you which fitness trackers are best for gaming the system. Mine said to buy an Xiaomi as it adds an extra 20% and costs a lot less.
- mrtksn 8y ago
  :) Of course my dystopian scenario holds only if these trackers were taken seriously. Maybe at this stage, it’s just a way to promote a discount.
  - stirfrykitty 8y ago
    I also cannot help but see the dystopian outcome here, especially in a profit-driven system. "Sir, we see your REM sleep is not being fully entered into most nights. Our system has indicated that you buy caffeine and pizzas multiple days a week. This will be reported." "Sir, we are denying your life insurance application because our insurance "partners" have determined you are a risk we cannot afford." Etc., etc. I will never willingly wear a tracker that reports health data. I will never willingly be chipped. Nothing of that sort. I always tell people to pay cash for their peccadilloes. Never use "loyalty" cards, as the info is sold to all manner of companies, including insurance companies. Banks sell "anonymized" data about your buying habits as well. And no one seems to be anything other than completely and utterly apathetic...
stronglikedan 8y ago
> the devices that shake the trackers just right I just duct tape mine to my dog while we play fetch.

antihero 8y ago

We have this in the UK, Vitality offer rewards based on your Fitbit (or whatever) step tracking, and also offer to "give" you an Apple Watch and negate the repayments if you achieve your health goals. I don't think it's actually that terrible as long as privacy is respected.

mcintyre1994 8y ago
I wouldn't have took Vitality up on this offer for anything but an Apple Watch, but I trust Apple not to give them access to anything behind my back. They also use the workouts feature as input to their point rewards stuff, so it's a pretty good deal.
- groby_b 8y ago
  Yeah... Apple won't, but the health tracking apps that you'll be asked to install certainly will - many already share with Facebook, without your consent[1]. You won't be getting that Apple Watch for free. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/22/18236398/facebook-mobile-apps-data-sharing-ads-health-fitness-privacy-violation https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/22/18236398/facebook-mobile-...
untog 8y ago
This same thing exists in the US, too. Except even more nefarious, because it can affect your health insurance premiums.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  The company where I work recently changed health insurance providers. Reps from the new company pushed this stuff HARD, along with their program for using an app to get basic health care from some random remote doctor. To the best of my knowledge, exactly nobody was interested in these programs.
rorykoehler 8y ago
> I don't think it's actually that terrible as long as privacy is respected. Surely we're well past the point of pretending that will happen?

OscarTheGrinch 8y ago

This trend towards manditory quantified health risks discrimination aginst chronically unwell people. Your data, even from healthy employees, is being weilded by unaccountable corporate goons to disenfranchise people, like digital star of David.

tomp 8y ago
> risks discrimination aginst chronically unwell people Technically it's not discrimination, they actually cost more, and their insurance would therefore be more expensive, in a free market. To the extent that the society values "fairness" and wants to help those people, government / non-free-market solutions are needed, with the society paying for them collectively.
- Tarq0n 8y ago
  The whole point of insurance, especially health insurance, is collectivizing risk. Otherwise you might as well put the money in a savings account.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    There’s a gray area where insurance goes from protecting against unpredictable losses to becoming a subsidy from those experiencing fewer losses to those experiencing more losses. In a true insurance market, people’s entire health is not insurable, since it’s guaranteed to have losses therefore it’s simply a subsidy from those who are not currently experiencing losses to those who are. What would be more akin to actual insurance is insuring specific events within a specific timeframe, such as broken bones from year x to year y, and then the insurance can charge more to people who play sports versus people who don’t, since obviously they would experience more losses, just like people who drive more pay more for auto insurance. However, this all gets murky with our requirement to force everyone to be provided with healthcare and people being in control of some things about their health (via diet and lifestyle) and not others (genetics, environment) and the inability to tease out causal factors. The primary purpose of health “insurance” in today’s world is to serve as an agent for the buyer since the buyer typically has no idea about what they’re buying from healthcare providers and at what cost, so theoretically, the doctors, pharmacists, and statisticians employed by insurance companies can do proper vetting of treatments for the patient.

tjpnz 8y ago

They were doing this to teachers in the US except in their case it was mandatory in order to just be insured.

tsukurimashou 8y ago

They do the same in France for car insurance, they give you a box you put in your car, which has at the very least a GPS module (but most probably have tons of other sensors) I think they are mostly targeting young drivers for which insurance can be pretty expensive, and knowing well that most young adults these days don't care much about privacy

nerdponx 8y ago
Some US companies do this, too. The unfortunate part is that, if we could trust that the data would be handled correctly (not wide-open to hackers, not used for other purposes like advertising/marketing) this would be an improvement in the efficiency of the insurance industry.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  I assume everyone who uses mobile networks has their location data being stored, shared, and sold by the mobile network companies. I assume government agencies and other people in positions of power can easily get identifiable information, and advertisers or other businesses can purchase "anonymized" information. At this point, I'm not sure what else is left to protect. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/06/verizon-and-att-will-stop-selling-your-phones-location-to-data-brokers/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/06/verizon-and-att-... They claim they're stopping, but I don't see why I should believe them.
  - gruez 8y ago
    Mobile network location data is much more coarse than GPS data, so there's "that" to protect.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      Are you sure? If the data in question also covers WiFi signals, which include the signals emitted by every phone near you, then I'm not sure the data really is that coarse.

_pmf_ 8y ago

> people are oblivious as to why this may not be the best idea/ alignment of interests Or they perceive it to be better than blanket profiling by race, gender and age.

rorykoehler 8y ago
No they are oblivious. I've asked more people than I can remember and all of their responses were a variation of "free stuff".