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I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However

by zaroth 8y ago

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the problem by far to point to specific (relatively minor, if not insignificant) failures of Tesla and generalize that their logistics IP isn’t worth stealing or couldn’t possibly be beneficial to a competitor. The gross margins that Tesla has achieved on the Model 3 I believe speaks for itself as the worlds best at that price point, and that does not come without a well run supply chain. There is no question that Tesla runs hot. I’d like to see anyone else try and come close to what they’ve shipped without a fair share of fuckups along the way.

AsyncAwait 8y ago
> I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. There are many reasons to legitimately shit on Tesla including their worker treatment, statements made by their CEO etc.
- zaroth 8y ago
  The point isn’t that you can prove Tesla isn’t perfect. That goes without saying. The assertion was they are so far from perfect that in fact their IP isn’t even defensible in a court of law. So please don’t reply with more quips about how Tesla isn’t perfect. Why does their CEO mouthing off on Twitter, or attacking disgruntled employees, or dubious onsite health care, or pie-in-the-sky volume estimates, or market manipulation, or literal dumpster fires on their property, mean that their IP is so much shit it can be stolen without consequence? Throughout, despite, or perhaps even in part due to all of the above, they have still achieved great things and changed an industry. They are still the biggest battery manufacturer in the world. They still make a handful of really fucking awesome electric cars, which you can order in a few minutes on your phone and have delivered to your house. And their margins on those cars are the industry best. Those points seem to support the notion that they must have some valuable logistical IP and trade secrets backing that up.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    I'm not saying that Tesla has no valuable IP (it's brand IP is quite valuable). I am saying that its logistics IP is worth nothing to another company, and right now its logistics IP isn't worth much to Tesla either. Even Musk acknowledges that they're in "logistics hell" right now...
    - hector_vasquez 8y ago
      Seems quite odd that people keep trying to steal worthless property.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    What are you talking about ? Nobody said that Tesla's IP was not valuable or that stealing it is okay.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      Oh, that’s funny. All this time commenting on my phone, I just realized I posted my OP as a top-level comment and not as a reply to gamblor956 as intended. > But given the shitshow that is Tesla's logistics , that's extremely unlikely, as Tesla's logistics processes simply aren't valuable IP. Tesla has displayed a chronic inability to manage their own supply chain, especially during the period the employees were at Tesla. If anything, Zoox used the information allegedly taken from Tesla as an example of what not to do logistically, and trade secrets law doesn't let you sue for that.
airstrike 8y ago
> I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Huh.. and here I thought Tesla was the little guy in an industry defined by century-old behemoths. The truth is people like to shit on other people. As Taylor Swift famously said[0], "we don't live just in a celebrity takedown culture, we live in a takedown culture. People will find anything about you and twist it to where it's weird or wrong or annoying or strange or bad." Yes, there's plenty we can criticize Tesla on, but people will extend this to even seemingly benign things like having something stolen from the company because it's cool to hate on the company in $current_year –––––––––– [0] https://www.pressparty.com/pg/newsdesk/taylorswift/view/113675/ https://www.pressparty.com/pg/newsdesk/taylorswift/view/1136...
- ineedasername 8y ago
  Well, shitting on Tesla for something like the fatal crashes where autopilot played a role does have a certain appeal. But at the same time, when they released their $35k vehicle I was still cheering them on too.
  - shaklee3 8y ago
    Except... It wasn't $35k anywhere but on paper. You had to buy the upgrades.
    - ineedasername 8y ago
      Do you mean in the past? I'm talking about their recent release in February. I can order one now, $35k, no mandatory upgrades that increase the price, delivery in 6-8 weeks.
      - shaklee3 8y ago
        No: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/26/18282810/tesla-model-3-standard-range-35000-delays https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/26/18282810/tesla-model-3-st...
gamblor956 8y ago
Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. Panasonic manufactures the battery cells for Tesla and most of the market. Tesla assembles the cells into batteries. It would be accurate to say that Tesla is the largest manufacturer of car batteries, but they are nowhere close to being the largest battery manufacturer in the world. The gross margins that Tesla has achieved on the Model 3 I believe speaks for itself as the worlds best at that price point, and that does not come without a well run supply chain. We must be talking about a different Model 3. If Tesla had terrific Model 3 gross margins, it wouldn't have needed to (try to) close all of its stores and eliminate all customer referral incentives just to make the $35k Model 3 possible...in one color and style...with limited options. It's competitors could have great margins too if they only sold the car in one color, one style, and no packages, because their economies of scale would absolutely dwarf Tesla's. I’d like to see anyone else try and come close to what they’ve shipped without a fair share of fuckups along the way Toyota and VW shipped 10 million cars worldwide last year without any logistics issues. Hell, most companies are able to ship their products without any controllable logistics issues. Why does Tesla get a pass for failing to do something that every other manufacturer gets right?
- zaroth 8y ago
  The Model 3 cells are custom 2170 li-ion cells co-developed with Tesla and manufactured by Panasonic at Gigafactory 1. Tesla Gigafactory 1, which started in 2013, has already grown into the biggest battery factory in the world with an annual production capacity of over 20 GWh. [1] Actually they have exceeded 20 GWh currently and are pushing towards 35 GWh. [2] Panasonic is a 25% stakeholder in Gigafactory 1. The fact that you think Tesla merely assembles packs, is because most of what they are doing to hit $100/kWh is trade secret. Their packs are cheaper, lighter, denser. They will be cobalt free. And that’s driven by Tesla IP not just Panasonic. [3] As far as margins, the idea that you could ship a 50kWh electric car for $35,000 was pure and utter lunacy 10 years ago. There literally isn’t enough battery production in the world to produce a million EVs a year, let alone 10 million. You are comparing apples to oranges. [1] - https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/09/26/panasonic-ahead-schedule-tesla-gigafactory-1-battery-cell-production-lines/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/09/26/panasoni... [2] - https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/gigafactory.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/g... [3] - https://electrek.co/2018/11/13/tesla-battery-cells-improved/ https://electrek.co/2018/11/13/tesla-battery-cells-improved/
mdorazio 8y ago
Nothing you've said actually runs counter to the parent comment, though. Tesla can simultaneously be awful at logistics and still be the largest battery pack manufacturer because no one else really wanted to get into that game until recently. Also, the gross margins on the Model 3 have little to do with supply chain. They cut a lot of corners on build quality, interior fit and finish, etc. to get to that margin and they're only able to do so because of lack of competition in the segment.
- dd36 8y ago
  They cut corners but have the highest safety rating ever and the highest customer satisfaction? Is it reasonable to call something a cut corner when the end result is success by nearly every metric? Maybe that corner needn't exist? Scaling issues are unavoidable. So much nitpicking.
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    Cut corners on amenities, though only compared to their other models. Still a lot nicer than my car
  - fromthestart 8y ago
    Cutting corners during manufacturing is unrelated to safety rating (within reason). The safety comes from robust design, not superior manufacturing practices. Neither are fit and finish related to safety.
  - mdorazio 8y ago
    When body panels don't line up, doors don't close properly without slamming them, and your infotainment system randomly bugs out (all issues I saw when borrowing a Model 3), your vehicle manufacturer cut corners. Meanwhile my distinct impression of interior quality when sitting in one is that it's basically a mass market car with a leather option, not a luxury price point vehicle. And no, scaling issues are absolutely not unavoidable. These are all solved problems. Tesla just rushed vehicles out the door with crap production line QA because they were running out of money and market patience.
shereadsthenews 8y ago
Tesla is not anywhere near the largest battery maker and their product is made to the exact same specifications as off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries, by Panasonic, in a Panasonic factory with a big Tesla sign on it. But what I'd love to know is how you came to believe any of that stuff you wrote.
- zaroth 8y ago
  The batteries in the Model 3 are not in fact off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries. Tesla has the largest single battery factory, but they seem to be second behind CATL in the latest annualized production rates. CATL shipped 7.3GWh in 2018-Q2, I can’t find Q3 numbers but I did find one site saying “monthly installed battery capacity with 1.47GWh, 2.45GWh, 2.49GWh and 3.4GWh produced respectively from August to November in 2018.” But these are not just EV batteries. For EV batteries specifically, Tesla produces more than 50% of global supply.
  - shereadsthenews 8y ago
    The global lead-acid battery market is still much larger than the global li-ion market, so your statement that Tesla is the world's largest battery maker has degraded into Tesla is the world's 2nd-largest maker of Li-ion batteries for the EV market, a much weaker statement.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      Tesla claims they make 60% of all supply for the EV market specifically. I believe this excludes plug-in hybrids and buses. It is also counting all Gigafactory pack capacity, which includes cells made by Pano in Asia that are assembled at Giga for Model S/X packs, so a bit squishy.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  How is it a "Panasonic factory" when Panasonic only own a 25% stake in it?
  - deleted 8y ago
Tomte 8y ago
> without a fair share of fuckups along the way My problem with Tesla is the same I have with Uber and AirBNB: it's not that they royally fuck up now and then, it's not even that they fuck up regularly. It's that their fuckups all betray their moral turpitude. They do not "fuck up" as in "security breach" or "bad bugs". They "fuck up" as in "lie, steal, cheat" and yes, arguably even "kill". I don't care which great achievements these companies may bring us. Or have already brought us. They need to die. Other companies can pick up those achievements and iterate on them.
- zaroth 8y ago
  Not to feed the troll, but I would put Boeing a hell of a lot higher on that list than Tesla. I drive with AutoPilot every day. One thing is damn sure, you watch it vigilantly, and you can always, always take control by just turning wheel or tapping the brakes. Tesla tells me every single time I engage AutoPilot to keep my hands on the wheel and be ready to take control. A special place in hell for automation that you don’t even know exists, that was concealed from you for a profit motive, flying your plane into the ground.
  - 05 8y ago
    In a worst case scenario Tesla can veer into a concrete lane divider and kill you in under a second. I don't think Boeing comes anywhere close to that timescale. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a person monitoring the vehicle to be able to react in time. Calling an L2 assist 'Autopilot' is just .. evil. Just like peddling shitty statistics that 'shows' AP is safer than manual driving (it really isn't).
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    Honest question, because I've never used an autopilot feature and have virtually no commute: if you have to watch it so vigilantly, what is the appeal or practical value?
    - zaroth 8y ago
      It changes the way I drive. I don't focus on making minor adjustments to keep the vehicle centered in the lane. I don't need to predominantly look far down the lane to try to keep my peripheral vision maximized, and only take cursory glances around, like I would if I was actively steering. I don't worry about drifting out of the lane if I'm looking at something in the next lane over or in the rear-view for a moment. I can scan more of my immediate surroundings and notice potential hazards which are not just directly in front of me much more easily. I also find it's a lot less tiring to have the car dealing with the micro-adjustments in steering while I do the higher level planning. I've said it before in other comments, but I honestly believe 20 years from now we might not have "sleep in your car while it takes you from point A to B" but we will look back and wonder how we managed to drive cars while constantly have to manually and meticulously center them in our lanes. In fact I personally think it's quite analogous to how airplane autopilot actually functions (even if the general public perception of airplane autopilot does not match reality). It requires a pilot to constantly be monitoring the situation, and in fact it frees the pilot to be able to do necessary planning tasks, but at no point does the autopilot itself carry the actual responsibility of operating the vehicle.
0xdeadb00f 8y ago
An article about Tesla on HN always has the top comment defending them. Always.
maxsilver 8y ago
> Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. Are we expected to just ignore LG Chem? Tesla's batteries are good, and I'm glad they're investing in them, but Tesla isn't ahead of their competitors there in any significant way.
steelframe 8y ago
> I’d like to see anyone else try and come close to what they’ve shipped without a fair share of fuckups along the way. Um, okay. I mean, there's the Chevy Bolt and the Jaguar I-PACE. They're both pretty good EVs, and they compare against the short-range RWD M3 and the MX 75D, respectively. I don't see any big fuckups with those two cars, at least compared to the Tesla cars. Speaking personally, I've owned a LEAF, an MX, and an I-PACE. Of the three, the Tesla has been an order of magnitude more problematic than the other two.

by zaroth 8y ago

AsyncAwait 8y ago

> I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. There are many reasons to legitimately shit on Tesla including their worker treatment, statements made by their CEO etc.

zaroth 8y ago
The point isn’t that you can prove Tesla isn’t perfect. That goes without saying. The assertion was they are so far from perfect that in fact their IP isn’t even defensible in a court of law. So please don’t reply with more quips about how Tesla isn’t perfect. Why does their CEO mouthing off on Twitter, or attacking disgruntled employees, or dubious onsite health care, or pie-in-the-sky volume estimates, or market manipulation, or literal dumpster fires on their property, mean that their IP is so much shit it can be stolen without consequence? Throughout, despite, or perhaps even in part due to all of the above, they have still achieved great things and changed an industry. They are still the biggest battery manufacturer in the world. They still make a handful of really fucking awesome electric cars, which you can order in a few minutes on your phone and have delivered to your house. And their margins on those cars are the industry best. Those points seem to support the notion that they must have some valuable logistical IP and trade secrets backing that up.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  I'm not saying that Tesla has no valuable IP (it's brand IP is quite valuable). I am saying that its logistics IP is worth nothing to another company, and right now its logistics IP isn't worth much to Tesla either. Even Musk acknowledges that they're in "logistics hell" right now...
  - hector_vasquez 8y ago
    Seems quite odd that people keep trying to steal worthless property.
- threeseed 8y ago
  What are you talking about ? Nobody said that Tesla's IP was not valuable or that stealing it is okay.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    Oh, that’s funny. All this time commenting on my phone, I just realized I posted my OP as a top-level comment and not as a reply to gamblor956 as intended. > But given the shitshow that is Tesla's logistics , that's extremely unlikely, as Tesla's logistics processes simply aren't valuable IP. Tesla has displayed a chronic inability to manage their own supply chain, especially during the period the employees were at Tesla. If anything, Zoox used the information allegedly taken from Tesla as an example of what not to do logistically, and trade secrets law doesn't let you sue for that.

airstrike 8y ago

> I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Huh.. and here I thought Tesla was the little guy in an industry defined by century-old behemoths. The truth is people like to shit on other people. As Taylor Swift famously said[0], "we don't live just in a celebrity takedown culture, we live in a takedown culture. People will find anything about you and twist it to where it's weird or wrong or annoying or strange or bad." Yes, there's plenty we can criticize Tesla on, but people will extend this to even seemingly benign things like having something stolen from the company because it's cool to hate on the company in $current_year –––––––––– [0] https://www.pressparty.com/pg/newsdesk/taylorswift/view/113675/ https://www.pressparty.com/pg/newsdesk/taylorswift/view/1136...

ineedasername 8y ago
Well, shitting on Tesla for something like the fatal crashes where autopilot played a role does have a certain appeal. But at the same time, when they released their $35k vehicle I was still cheering them on too.
- shaklee3 8y ago
  Except... It wasn't $35k anywhere but on paper. You had to buy the upgrades.
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    Do you mean in the past? I'm talking about their recent release in February. I can order one now, $35k, no mandatory upgrades that increase the price, delivery in 6-8 weeks.
    - shaklee3 8y ago
      No: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/26/18282810/tesla-model-3-standard-range-35000-delays https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/26/18282810/tesla-model-3-st...

gamblor956 8y ago

Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. Panasonic manufactures the battery cells for Tesla and most of the market. Tesla assembles the cells into batteries. It would be accurate to say that Tesla is the largest manufacturer of car batteries, but they are nowhere close to being the largest battery manufacturer in the world. The gross margins that Tesla has achieved on the Model 3 I believe speaks for itself as the worlds best at that price point, and that does not come without a well run supply chain. We must be talking about a different Model 3. If Tesla had terrific Model 3 gross margins, it wouldn't have needed to (try to) close all of its stores and eliminate all customer referral incentives just to make the $35k Model 3 possible...in one color and style...with limited options. It's competitors could have great margins too if they only sold the car in one color, one style, and no packages, because their economies of scale would absolutely dwarf Tesla's. I’d like to see anyone else try and come close to what they’ve shipped without a fair share of fuckups along the way Toyota and VW shipped 10 million cars worldwide last year without any logistics issues. Hell, most companies are able to ship their products without any controllable logistics issues. Why does Tesla get a pass for failing to do something that every other manufacturer gets right?

zaroth 8y ago
The Model 3 cells are custom 2170 li-ion cells co-developed with Tesla and manufactured by Panasonic at Gigafactory 1. Tesla Gigafactory 1, which started in 2013, has already grown into the biggest battery factory in the world with an annual production capacity of over 20 GWh. [1] Actually they have exceeded 20 GWh currently and are pushing towards 35 GWh. [2] Panasonic is a 25% stakeholder in Gigafactory 1. The fact that you think Tesla merely assembles packs, is because most of what they are doing to hit $100/kWh is trade secret. Their packs are cheaper, lighter, denser. They will be cobalt free. And that’s driven by Tesla IP not just Panasonic. [3] As far as margins, the idea that you could ship a 50kWh electric car for $35,000 was pure and utter lunacy 10 years ago. There literally isn’t enough battery production in the world to produce a million EVs a year, let alone 10 million. You are comparing apples to oranges. [1] - https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/09/26/panasonic-ahead-schedule-tesla-gigafactory-1-battery-cell-production-lines/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/09/26/panasoni... [2] - https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/gigafactory.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/g... [3] - https://electrek.co/2018/11/13/tesla-battery-cells-improved/ https://electrek.co/2018/11/13/tesla-battery-cells-improved/

mdorazio 8y ago

Nothing you've said actually runs counter to the parent comment, though. Tesla can simultaneously be awful at logistics and still be the largest battery pack manufacturer because no one else really wanted to get into that game until recently. Also, the gross margins on the Model 3 have little to do with supply chain. They cut a lot of corners on build quality, interior fit and finish, etc. to get to that margin and they're only able to do so because of lack of competition in the segment.

dd36 8y ago
They cut corners but have the highest safety rating ever and the highest customer satisfaction? Is it reasonable to call something a cut corner when the end result is success by nearly every metric? Maybe that corner needn't exist? Scaling issues are unavoidable. So much nitpicking.
- ineedasername 8y ago
  Cut corners on amenities, though only compared to their other models. Still a lot nicer than my car
- fromthestart 8y ago
  Cutting corners during manufacturing is unrelated to safety rating (within reason). The safety comes from robust design, not superior manufacturing practices. Neither are fit and finish related to safety.
- mdorazio 8y ago
  When body panels don't line up, doors don't close properly without slamming them, and your infotainment system randomly bugs out (all issues I saw when borrowing a Model 3), your vehicle manufacturer cut corners. Meanwhile my distinct impression of interior quality when sitting in one is that it's basically a mass market car with a leather option, not a luxury price point vehicle. And no, scaling issues are absolutely not unavoidable. These are all solved problems. Tesla just rushed vehicles out the door with crap production line QA because they were running out of money and market patience.

shereadsthenews 8y ago

Tesla is not anywhere near the largest battery maker and their product is made to the exact same specifications as off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries, by Panasonic, in a Panasonic factory with a big Tesla sign on it. But what I'd love to know is how you came to believe any of that stuff you wrote.

zaroth 8y ago
The batteries in the Model 3 are not in fact off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries. Tesla has the largest single battery factory, but they seem to be second behind CATL in the latest annualized production rates. CATL shipped 7.3GWh in 2018-Q2, I can’t find Q3 numbers but I did find one site saying “monthly installed battery capacity with 1.47GWh, 2.45GWh, 2.49GWh and 3.4GWh produced respectively from August to November in 2018.” But these are not just EV batteries. For EV batteries specifically, Tesla produces more than 50% of global supply.
- shereadsthenews 8y ago
  The global lead-acid battery market is still much larger than the global li-ion market, so your statement that Tesla is the world's largest battery maker has degraded into Tesla is the world's 2nd-largest maker of Li-ion batteries for the EV market, a much weaker statement.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    Tesla claims they make 60% of all supply for the EV market specifically. I believe this excludes plug-in hybrids and buses. It is also counting all Gigafactory pack capacity, which includes cells made by Pano in Asia that are assembled at Giga for Model S/X packs, so a bit squishy.
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
How is it a "Panasonic factory" when Panasonic only own a 25% stake in it?
- deleted 8y ago

Tomte 8y ago

> without a fair share of fuckups along the way My problem with Tesla is the same I have with Uber and AirBNB: it's not that they royally fuck up now and then, it's not even that they fuck up regularly. It's that their fuckups all betray their moral turpitude. They do not "fuck up" as in "security breach" or "bad bugs". They "fuck up" as in "lie, steal, cheat" and yes, arguably even "kill". I don't care which great achievements these companies may bring us. Or have already brought us. They need to die. Other companies can pick up those achievements and iterate on them.

zaroth 8y ago
Not to feed the troll, but I would put Boeing a hell of a lot higher on that list than Tesla. I drive with AutoPilot every day. One thing is damn sure, you watch it vigilantly, and you can always, always take control by just turning wheel or tapping the brakes. Tesla tells me every single time I engage AutoPilot to keep my hands on the wheel and be ready to take control. A special place in hell for automation that you don’t even know exists, that was concealed from you for a profit motive, flying your plane into the ground.
- 05 8y ago
  In a worst case scenario Tesla can veer into a concrete lane divider and kill you in under a second. I don't think Boeing comes anywhere close to that timescale. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a person monitoring the vehicle to be able to react in time. Calling an L2 assist 'Autopilot' is just .. evil. Just like peddling shitty statistics that 'shows' AP is safer than manual driving (it really isn't).
- ineedasername 8y ago
  Honest question, because I've never used an autopilot feature and have virtually no commute: if you have to watch it so vigilantly, what is the appeal or practical value?
  - zaroth 8y ago
    It changes the way I drive. I don't focus on making minor adjustments to keep the vehicle centered in the lane. I don't need to predominantly look far down the lane to try to keep my peripheral vision maximized, and only take cursory glances around, like I would if I was actively steering. I don't worry about drifting out of the lane if I'm looking at something in the next lane over or in the rear-view for a moment. I can scan more of my immediate surroundings and notice potential hazards which are not just directly in front of me much more easily. I also find it's a lot less tiring to have the car dealing with the micro-adjustments in steering while I do the higher level planning. I've said it before in other comments, but I honestly believe 20 years from now we might not have "sleep in your car while it takes you from point A to B" but we will look back and wonder how we managed to drive cars while constantly have to manually and meticulously center them in our lanes. In fact I personally think it's quite analogous to how airplane autopilot actually functions (even if the general public perception of airplane autopilot does not match reality). It requires a pilot to constantly be monitoring the situation, and in fact it frees the pilot to be able to do necessary planning tasks, but at no point does the autopilot itself carry the actual responsibility of operating the vehicle.

0xdeadb00f 8y ago

An article about Tesla on HN always has the top comment defending them. Always.

maxsilver 8y ago

> Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. Are we expected to just ignore LG Chem? Tesla's batteries are good, and I'm glad they're investing in them, but Tesla isn't ahead of their competitors there in any significant way.

steelframe 8y ago

> I’d like to see anyone else try and come close to what they’ve shipped without a fair share of fuckups along the way. Um, okay. I mean, there's the Chevy Bolt and the Jaguar I-PACE. They're both pretty good EVs, and they compare against the short-range RWD M3 and the MX 75D, respectively. I don't see any big fuckups with those two cars, at least compared to the Tesla cars. Speaking personally, I've owned a LEAF, an MX, and an I-PACE. Of the three, the Tesla has been an order of magnitude more problematic than the other two.