8 ms·

These petitions are almost always met with a boilerplate response. There was a recent one (which I can't find as the site's currently down) regarding Russian in

These petitions are almost always met with a boilerplate response. There was a recent one (which I can't find as the site's currently down) regarding Russian interference in the last UK election, with the government response being along the lines of "we don't know what you're talking about, move on". More on that here: https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/b2vmm0/government_response_to_the_petition_undertake_an/ https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/b2vmm0/gover... While the huge number of signings on this petition obviously does reflect _something_, I'm not sure it's actually doing anything meaningful. Likewise the upcoming march this weekend for a Peoples Vote: https://www.peoples-vote.uk/march https://www.peoples-vote.uk/march These are now simply ignored. The sheer stubbornness of Theresa May's position as evidenced by her statement last night means we're going to go to the wire on something that's been worked on for years. People calling it a national disgrace are absolutely correct. I can only hope that the pressure exerted from various angles (petition, march, sane MPs) will result in Parliament revoking Article 50, but I don't see it happening. It would be too prudent for this parody of a political system. edit: the site's back now. Apparently it runs on Rails with DelayedJob doing most of the grunt work in the background. edit2: just found the most popular petition on there with over 4m votes and absolutely nothing came of that: https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/131215 https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/131215

misnome 8y ago
I think mostly everyone signing this knows this. But it’s not as though we’ve been listened to in any way. I like the summary of @bootstrapcool on Twitter: “God knows we've tried everything else.[...] A brief use of collective impotent fury and a tiny squeak into the black holes of our futures, but it's something.”
- colinramsay 8y ago
  Absolutely. I'm not positive about the outcome but I wouldn't berate people for trying, hence my comment "I can only hope that the pressure exerted from various angles (petition, march, sane MPs) will result in Parliament revoking Article 50". I've signed it myself!
- frutiger 8y ago
  > But it’s not as though we’ve been listened to in any way. I get the sentiment (as a pro-Euro Brit), but surely the original referendum counts as being listened to in some way?
  - ck425 8y ago
    The only reason the result wasn't chucked out due to fraud was that it was 'only' advisory. There are plenty of reasons to hold a second vote, beyond just I didn't like the first result.
  - misnome 8y ago
    > surely the original referendum counts as being listened to in some way? Even ignoring all the illegality and fraud about the referendum, and ignoring that because it was advisory large portions of british citizens living abroad were prevented from having a say, and ignoring the arguments about 16-year-olds who it would be directly affecting because of the time lags, and ignoring the arguments around the fact that the process/success has been wildly, wildly different than promised, Ever since the referendum 50% of the population of the UK has had no representation in Parliament and government, whilst being endlessly parroted at that it is the "will of the people" and simultaneously being blamed for everything going predictably wrong. Democratic governments aren't supposed to have one vote then completely ignore the rest of the population.
    - warbucks 8y ago
      Why such an important decision wasn't required to be 60/40 to pass completely baffles me. Almost as much as how the referendum is treated as some iron-clad decision while passing at 51/49.
      - repolfx 8y ago
        Classic Remainer logic. If Leave had won 61/39 it'd have become "for such an important decision it should have been 75/25 to pass". The reason decisions like elections use a simple majority is that otherwise it'd be a small minority of people oppressing the will of the majority, which is unstable, and otherwise known as dictatorship.
- cstross 8y ago
  Speaking solely for myself: I can't get to London for the march on Saturday (I live in Scotland) and even if I could, I'm middle-aged, with dodgy knees and a bad foot. Signing the petition is therefore a proxy for more direct activism. (I note it has passed 750,000 signatures in well under 24 hours.)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
_Codemonkeyism 8y ago
The Brexiteers had won when they successfully framed Brexit as "the will of the 17M". Remainers didn't counter-frame this with "50M didn't vote for Brexit". Therefor all the marches, petitions etc. are always/can be ignored in the context of "but the will of the 17M". "Don't Think of an Elephant!" is now such an old book, and still a lot of people haven't read it. Brexiteers have read it it seems.
- richmarr 8y ago
  I think the petition will need more than 17m (genuine) signatures before it'll have the effect it's aiming for. Not saying the signatures so far aren't genuine, just that to have the desired effect it'll need to be reasonably free from doubt
  - ben_w 8y ago
    Agreed. I thought the same while signing the original one right after the referendum result was announced — I wasn’t expecting to get what I wanted, but signed it in the hope of sending a “Of course I still love EU” message.
- SeanDav 8y ago
  If someone does not vote, when there was ample opportunity to do so, then they implicitly are accepting the outcome - whichever way it goes. This actually should read "Brexit - The will of the 17m + 50m who are okay with this" This would have read the same if the result had gone the other way: "Remain - The will of the Xm + 50m who are okay with this" At the end of the day, there was a vote and more people wanted Brexit, than Remain. A democratic process and result.
  - _Codemonkeyism 8y ago
    Yes I agree, if you don't vote (having voted in every election the last 30y and would never not vote) you're ok with the result and can't complain, but from a Remainer standpoint the framing would be "50M didn't vote for Brexit" - then I'd think their arguing would be easier. Having watched many Commons discussions, it basically always ends with "but the 17M".
europsucks 8y ago
Wouldn't it be meaningless, anyway, unless you compare it to the number of people who are opposed to the petition?
- franky47 8y ago
  I made a progress bar against the NoDeal counter-petition: https://brexit-petitions-count.now.sh https://brexit-petitions-count.now.sh (Pending API availability)
  - pmuk 8y ago
    That's actually really cool. Who needs parliament to vote for a second referendum? We can run our own mini referendum using the two petitions :) Brexit petitions in realtime: 710,563 signed for remain - 65.81% #RevokeArticle50 371,020 signed for no deal - 34.17% #NoDeal https://twitter.com/paulmaunders/status/1108684812414533632 https://twitter.com/paulmaunders/status/1108684812414533632
    - lordlimecat 8y ago
      That's a really terrible way to run a statistical study.
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    nice! (minor nitpick: the numbers weren't visible in firefox and had to launch google-chrome to actually view the page).
  - pmuk 8y ago
    Does your site cache the numbers? It could be really useful to take some of the load off the main petition's site, as people keep going there and refreshing the page which is overloading it.
    - franky47 8y ago
      It refreshes every 5 seconds, and uses the data from the petition JSON API (just add .json to a petition URL).
jon889 8y ago
I don't really understand how Paris has real protests almost every weekend, yet we're leaving the EU and we've just had a few marches. Marches do nothing, they're preplanned to cause minimal disruption, just make the people in them feel like they're doing something so that it doesn't go further than that. The march on Saturday needs to at least move off the preplanned route and actually cause some inconvenience.
- dalbasal 8y ago
  You don't want french protest culture, IMO. There are some good things about it and specific protests can achieve good results, but it adds up to a very stasis oriented bureaucracy/policy ecosystem. It also gives populists a hand.
  - jon889 8y ago
    Yup I wouldn't want it every weekend. But the scale of Brexit is much bigger, its going to affect our country for decades. It just seems like there should be more protests rather than marches or at least civil disobedience
    - dalbasal 8y ago
      True, but I think the British (my brothers to the east and north) need to remember that Brexit was ultimately a popular movement. Parliamentary shenanigans played a role, and have been making a mockery of themselves since but... Brexit was a popular vote, with neither party actually supporting it. The interest in Brexit also grew against the wishes of major parties, industries and most centres of power. A reason parliament can't manage it decently is because parliament was and is mostly against it, including May. This is not like ip laws, where interested lobbies co-opt the parliamentary systems with as little popular involvement (or knowledge) as possible. This was/is an actual division of opinions among the people. It wasn't imposed from above. I hope you guys stay in, or at least close but I think it needs to be done in a way that respects the other side too.
      - 8y ago
tomp 8y ago
> The sheer stubbornness of Theresa May's position What do you mean? To me, it seems she's tried pretty much everything, but the parliament voted down most of the proposals... Edit: I have nothing but respect for her. She's literally the only person in the wide political spectrum in the UK that's willing to actually deal with this like a sensible adult, and she's been eating a ton of shit for it, barely complaining at all. She sacrificed a lot, her political career is completely over, and for no real result, because she was stuck between a rock and a hard place.
- zimablue 8y ago
  Which variety of options (in negotiations/terms of the deal) do you think that Theresa May has tried?
- arethuza 8y ago
  Perhaps if she hadn't called a pointless general election and then run one of the worst campaigns in living memory that ended up removing the Conservative majority requiring pandering to the DUP I might have some sympathy.
  - nutjob2 8y ago
    If she had thought strategically she might have held off on an election until closer to this moment and then she could have used the threat of an election, and the attendant annihilation at the polls, as a threat against the rebels to secure the key factor of party unity. Effective head-kicking is absolutely essential in these sorts of situations. May has ended up just making herself look weak again and again.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      Her party was way ahead in the polks when she called the election. She is just incredibly bad at her job — literally, as in if you went back in time 5 years and described what she’d done[1], it would not be considered credible. [1] hand-waving the credibility of tine travel, of course
- 8y ago
stordoff 8y ago
I don't think anyone is expecting anything to come directly of this. However, it puts more pressure on MPs.
AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
There was also one about tv licenses, their response was basically "but this is how bbc gets funded!" and ignored the results of the petition.
osrec 8y ago
I think you may be surprised by the outcome. The real question is, do the Tory party want to commit political suicide by administering a no deal brexit, and risk never getting re-elected until the subsequent turmoil subsides? I think not. Farage and the rest are no where to be seen (he still collects his salary from the EU apparently though!). The upshot of all this mess will probably be as unlikely as the referendum result itself. Personally, I'm expecting the unexpected, and can see a total revocation of article 50, resulting most probably from a people's vote (anything else would be undemocratic). I mean, what other realistic option is there that isn't utterly pie-in-the-sky stupid?!
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > commit political suicide by administering a no deal Brexit I don't know how this would be political suicide, it is currently the most popular option in polling, and it's not considered to have any greater economic costs than the other options (including reversing the referendum decision entirely!).
  - osrec 8y ago
    How can the potential breakup of the UK, increased economic uncertainty, increased political uncertainty, and a complete lack of plan yield any good outcomes for the Tories in the mid-to-long term? I mean, it may be popular, short term, but you have to remember that the people screaming their lungs out in favour of Brexit are probably the least informed about its potential consequences. And they are probably also the most affected by the potential consequences - they will turn as soon as the going gets tough.
  - meheleventyone 8y ago
    Except that your statement on economic costs is baloney. For example: https://www.ft.com/content/4849bf68-1b13-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21 https://www.ft.com/content/4849bf68-1b13-11e9-9e64-d150b3105...
  - threeseed 8y ago
    1. It is not the most popular option in polling. Right now it is to remain in the EU. 2. The idea that it has no greater cost than the options is ridiculous. UK Treasury and economists from all around the world have all come to the conclusion that a hard brexit is significantly more harmful than a soft brexit. And it's common sense since it imposes trade friction on the UK's largest trading partner.
microcolonel 8y ago
> While the huge number of signings on this petition obviously does reflect _something_, I'm not sure it's actually doing anything meaningful. Likewise the upcoming march this weekend for a Peoples Vote: Of course, they will keep voting until they get the answer you wanted.

misnome 8y ago

I think mostly everyone signing this knows this. But it’s not as though we’ve been listened to in any way. I like the summary of @bootstrapcool on Twitter: “God knows we've tried everything else.[...] A brief use of collective impotent fury and a tiny squeak into the black holes of our futures, but it's something.”

colinramsay 8y ago
Absolutely. I'm not positive about the outcome but I wouldn't berate people for trying, hence my comment "I can only hope that the pressure exerted from various angles (petition, march, sane MPs) will result in Parliament revoking Article 50". I've signed it myself!
frutiger 8y ago
> But it’s not as though we’ve been listened to in any way. I get the sentiment (as a pro-Euro Brit), but surely the original referendum counts as being listened to in some way?
- ck425 8y ago
  The only reason the result wasn't chucked out due to fraud was that it was 'only' advisory. There are plenty of reasons to hold a second vote, beyond just I didn't like the first result.
- misnome 8y ago
  > surely the original referendum counts as being listened to in some way? Even ignoring all the illegality and fraud about the referendum, and ignoring that because it was advisory large portions of british citizens living abroad were prevented from having a say, and ignoring the arguments about 16-year-olds who it would be directly affecting because of the time lags, and ignoring the arguments around the fact that the process/success has been wildly, wildly different than promised, Ever since the referendum 50% of the population of the UK has had no representation in Parliament and government, whilst being endlessly parroted at that it is the "will of the people" and simultaneously being blamed for everything going predictably wrong. Democratic governments aren't supposed to have one vote then completely ignore the rest of the population.
  - warbucks 8y ago
    Why such an important decision wasn't required to be 60/40 to pass completely baffles me. Almost as much as how the referendum is treated as some iron-clad decision while passing at 51/49.
    - repolfx 8y ago
      Classic Remainer logic. If Leave had won 61/39 it'd have become "for such an important decision it should have been 75/25 to pass". The reason decisions like elections use a simple majority is that otherwise it'd be a small minority of people oppressing the will of the majority, which is unstable, and otherwise known as dictatorship.
cstross 8y ago
Speaking solely for myself: I can't get to London for the march on Saturday (I live in Scotland) and even if I could, I'm middle-aged, with dodgy knees and a bad foot. Signing the petition is therefore a proxy for more direct activism. (I note it has passed 750,000 signatures in well under 24 hours.)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

_Codemonkeyism 8y ago

The Brexiteers had won when they successfully framed Brexit as "the will of the 17M". Remainers didn't counter-frame this with "50M didn't vote for Brexit". Therefor all the marches, petitions etc. are always/can be ignored in the context of "but the will of the 17M". "Don't Think of an Elephant!" is now such an old book, and still a lot of people haven't read it. Brexiteers have read it it seems.

richmarr 8y ago
I think the petition will need more than 17m (genuine) signatures before it'll have the effect it's aiming for. Not saying the signatures so far aren't genuine, just that to have the desired effect it'll need to be reasonably free from doubt
- ben_w 8y ago
  Agreed. I thought the same while signing the original one right after the referendum result was announced — I wasn’t expecting to get what I wanted, but signed it in the hope of sending a “Of course I still love EU” message.
SeanDav 8y ago
If someone does not vote, when there was ample opportunity to do so, then they implicitly are accepting the outcome - whichever way it goes. This actually should read "Brexit - The will of the 17m + 50m who are okay with this" This would have read the same if the result had gone the other way: "Remain - The will of the Xm + 50m who are okay with this" At the end of the day, there was a vote and more people wanted Brexit, than Remain. A democratic process and result.
- _Codemonkeyism 8y ago
  Yes I agree, if you don't vote (having voted in every election the last 30y and would never not vote) you're ok with the result and can't complain, but from a Remainer standpoint the framing would be "50M didn't vote for Brexit" - then I'd think their arguing would be easier. Having watched many Commons discussions, it basically always ends with "but the 17M".

europsucks 8y ago

Wouldn't it be meaningless, anyway, unless you compare it to the number of people who are opposed to the petition?

franky47 8y ago
I made a progress bar against the NoDeal counter-petition: https://brexit-petitions-count.now.sh https://brexit-petitions-count.now.sh (Pending API availability)
- pmuk 8y ago
  That's actually really cool. Who needs parliament to vote for a second referendum? We can run our own mini referendum using the two petitions :) Brexit petitions in realtime: 710,563 signed for remain - 65.81% #RevokeArticle50 371,020 signed for no deal - 34.17% #NoDeal https://twitter.com/paulmaunders/status/1108684812414533632 https://twitter.com/paulmaunders/status/1108684812414533632
  - lordlimecat 8y ago
    That's a really terrible way to run a statistical study.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  nice! (minor nitpick: the numbers weren't visible in firefox and had to launch google-chrome to actually view the page).
- pmuk 8y ago
  Does your site cache the numbers? It could be really useful to take some of the load off the main petition's site, as people keep going there and refreshing the page which is overloading it.
  - franky47 8y ago
    It refreshes every 5 seconds, and uses the data from the petition JSON API (just add .json to a petition URL).

jon889 8y ago

I don't really understand how Paris has real protests almost every weekend, yet we're leaving the EU and we've just had a few marches. Marches do nothing, they're preplanned to cause minimal disruption, just make the people in them feel like they're doing something so that it doesn't go further than that. The march on Saturday needs to at least move off the preplanned route and actually cause some inconvenience.

dalbasal 8y ago
You don't want french protest culture, IMO. There are some good things about it and specific protests can achieve good results, but it adds up to a very stasis oriented bureaucracy/policy ecosystem. It also gives populists a hand.
- jon889 8y ago
  Yup I wouldn't want it every weekend. But the scale of Brexit is much bigger, its going to affect our country for decades. It just seems like there should be more protests rather than marches or at least civil disobedience
  - dalbasal 8y ago
    True, but I think the British (my brothers to the east and north) need to remember that Brexit was ultimately a popular movement. Parliamentary shenanigans played a role, and have been making a mockery of themselves since but... Brexit was a popular vote, with neither party actually supporting it. The interest in Brexit also grew against the wishes of major parties, industries and most centres of power. A reason parliament can't manage it decently is because parliament was and is mostly against it, including May. This is not like ip laws, where interested lobbies co-opt the parliamentary systems with as little popular involvement (or knowledge) as possible. This was/is an actual division of opinions among the people. It wasn't imposed from above. I hope you guys stay in, or at least close but I think it needs to be done in a way that respects the other side too.
    - 8y ago

tomp 8y ago

> The sheer stubbornness of Theresa May's position What do you mean? To me, it seems she's tried pretty much everything, but the parliament voted down most of the proposals... Edit: I have nothing but respect for her. She's literally the only person in the wide political spectrum in the UK that's willing to actually deal with this like a sensible adult, and she's been eating a ton of shit for it, barely complaining at all. She sacrificed a lot, her political career is completely over, and for no real result, because she was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

zimablue 8y ago
Which variety of options (in negotiations/terms of the deal) do you think that Theresa May has tried?
arethuza 8y ago
Perhaps if she hadn't called a pointless general election and then run one of the worst campaigns in living memory that ended up removing the Conservative majority requiring pandering to the DUP I might have some sympathy.
- nutjob2 8y ago
  If she had thought strategically she might have held off on an election until closer to this moment and then she could have used the threat of an election, and the attendant annihilation at the polls, as a threat against the rebels to secure the key factor of party unity. Effective head-kicking is absolutely essential in these sorts of situations. May has ended up just making herself look weak again and again.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    Her party was way ahead in the polks when she called the election. She is just incredibly bad at her job — literally, as in if you went back in time 5 years and described what she’d done[1], it would not be considered credible. [1] hand-waving the credibility of tine travel, of course
8y ago

stordoff 8y ago

I don't think anyone is expecting anything to come directly of this. However, it puts more pressure on MPs.

AnaniasAnanas 8y ago

There was also one about tv licenses, their response was basically "but this is how bbc gets funded!" and ignored the results of the petition.

osrec 8y ago

I think you may be surprised by the outcome. The real question is, do the Tory party want to commit political suicide by administering a no deal brexit, and risk never getting re-elected until the subsequent turmoil subsides? I think not. Farage and the rest are no where to be seen (he still collects his salary from the EU apparently though!). The upshot of all this mess will probably be as unlikely as the referendum result itself. Personally, I'm expecting the unexpected, and can see a total revocation of article 50, resulting most probably from a people's vote (anything else would be undemocratic). I mean, what other realistic option is there that isn't utterly pie-in-the-sky stupid?!

microcolonel 8y ago
> commit political suicide by administering a no deal Brexit I don't know how this would be political suicide, it is currently the most popular option in polling, and it's not considered to have any greater economic costs than the other options (including reversing the referendum decision entirely!).
- osrec 8y ago
  How can the potential breakup of the UK, increased economic uncertainty, increased political uncertainty, and a complete lack of plan yield any good outcomes for the Tories in the mid-to-long term? I mean, it may be popular, short term, but you have to remember that the people screaming their lungs out in favour of Brexit are probably the least informed about its potential consequences. And they are probably also the most affected by the potential consequences - they will turn as soon as the going gets tough.
- meheleventyone 8y ago
  Except that your statement on economic costs is baloney. For example: https://www.ft.com/content/4849bf68-1b13-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21 https://www.ft.com/content/4849bf68-1b13-11e9-9e64-d150b3105...
- threeseed 8y ago
  1. It is not the most popular option in polling. Right now it is to remain in the EU. 2. The idea that it has no greater cost than the options is ridiculous. UK Treasury and economists from all around the world have all come to the conclusion that a hard brexit is significantly more harmful than a soft brexit. And it's common sense since it imposes trade friction on the UK's largest trading partner.

microcolonel 8y ago

> While the huge number of signings on this petition obviously does reflect _something_, I'm not sure it's actually doing anything meaningful. Likewise the upcoming march this weekend for a Peoples Vote: Of course, they will keep voting until they get the answer you wanted.