5 ms·

Evenly distributed not in the sense that everyone has an equal amount, but that every way you can cut up demographics (age, race, sex, nationality) will have th

Evenly distributed not in the sense that everyone has an equal amount, but that every way you can cut up demographics (age, race, sex, nationality) will have the same bell curve of talent. But that is not necessarily so with opportunity.

WillPostForFood 8y ago
No offense, but it seems preposterous to suggest the talent distribution within any demographic category is uneven, but if you compare two demographic categories, they are the same. Take a look at the top marathon runners, and tell me that the long distance running talent is distributed equally in Bolivia and Kenya.
- yathern 8y ago
  Well that's more of a question on what defines "talent" - and if such a thing exists. Genetic predisposition certainly is a thing in sports, and genetics and ethnicity are obviously closely related. The context we we're talking about was specifically taken in terms of intelligence. Or "potential". If you want to make the argument that intelligence potential is affected by your ethnicity, you are free to do so, though I doubt such ideas will be well received :) This idea of talent being equally distributed may not be factually accurate. But it's something I'd prefer to believe regardless and be wrong about.
  - iguy 8y ago
    > But it's something I'd prefer to believe regardless and be wrong about. This is fine so long as you are judicious about what actions follow from such beliefs. If it motivates you to seek opportunity and encouragement for all, that is wonderful. If it motivates others to run witch-hunts in against fairly meritocratic organisations whose makeup stubbornly refuses to conform to their beliefs, that is less than wonderful.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - yathern 8y ago
      > it motivates others to run witch-hunts in against fairly meritocratic organisations whose makeup stubbornly refuses to conform to their beliefs I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Can you give a specific example of a witch-hunt like this? I imagine you're talking about something where (for low-stakes example) a video game competition is typically dominated by 20 year old white males. Someone stirs the boat and tries to make changes so that 50 year old hispanic women place better, despite worse objective performance. Obviously that would not be a great thing to do! However, let's not assume the makeup of meritocratic organisations is always as fair as we think. In the video game example, the inconsistency with the makeup is not necessarily because 20 year old males are, by nature since birth, better at video games. But for mostly social reasons, having had more exposure.
  - seppin 8y ago
    > The context we we're talking about was specifically taken in terms of intelligence. Or "potential". If you want to make the argument that intelligence potential is affected by your ethnicity, you are free to do so, though I doubt such ideas will be well received :) The Sam Harris crowd loves this argument
  - V-2 8y ago
    > If you want to make the argument that intelligence potential is affected by your ethnicity, you are free to do so, though I doubt such ideas will be well received :) I'm sure they wouldn't be, but this is not how you disprove an idea.
    - yathern 8y ago
      I didn't try to disprove anything. In fact, that may very well be true. The OP was hinting at the idea, and I wanted to explicate it, while acknowledging the controversy of it. I just don't think much is gained by knowing factually that X people have greater intelligence than Y people. In my opinion, that knowledge can only be used to be divisive and destructive. Lets operate off the principle that all people can have great potential, and work from there. Some things are worth being wrong about.
- periodic123 8y ago
  let's drop a kenyan marathon runner in the bolivian andes and let's see how far he gets over the course of 1 week compared to a bolivian farmer.
- sangnoir 8y ago
  Aspiring marathoners in Kenya will have a lot of opportunities. Does Bolivia have the same infrastructure (training programs, mentors, etc)? I'm guessing the answer is no. Distribution of Olympic medals can be predicted by GDP alone, which is more aligned with/is a proxy for 'opportunity' than it is with 'talent', IMO.
bluthru 8y ago
>but that every way you can cut up demographics (age, race, sex, nationality) will have the same bell curve of talent. No. There is not data to support this belief, and the problem becomes when people expect this result and make rules to create this outcome.
- danans 8y ago
  > No. There is not data to support this belief, At least with things like chess playing and related abilities, there is no data to suggest the opposite belief either. Any observations that we could use at sufficient scale are massively confounded by other huge environmental variables.
  - bluthru 8y ago
    Let's take an easy one: basketball. There are more white high school basketball players but more black college basketball players. Are you claiming that's 100% environmental?
    - danans 8y ago
      I never said it was 100% environmental (those are your words). I said determining the cause of high ability in things like chess is not straightforward because of the confounding environmental factors. Just because your cherry picked example of basketball has an obvious first order physical correlation to performance (height) doesn't mean it's comparable to chess. And your example also ignores the fact that white students tend to have more avenues to access college than black students, so don't need basketball programs nearly as much.
akhilcacharya 8y ago
“Not everyone can be a chess champion but a chess champion can come from anywhere”.
- yathern 8y ago
  Is that a modified ratatouille quote? That's been my philosophy for a while :)
  - akhilcacharya 8y ago
    It's a good quote!
sDlEzAtyoNAz 8y ago
What reason do you have to believe that?

WillPostForFood 8y ago

No offense, but it seems preposterous to suggest the talent distribution within any demographic category is uneven, but if you compare two demographic categories, they are the same. Take a look at the top marathon runners, and tell me that the long distance running talent is distributed equally in Bolivia and Kenya.

yathern 8y ago
Well that's more of a question on what defines "talent" - and if such a thing exists. Genetic predisposition certainly is a thing in sports, and genetics and ethnicity are obviously closely related. The context we we're talking about was specifically taken in terms of intelligence. Or "potential". If you want to make the argument that intelligence potential is affected by your ethnicity, you are free to do so, though I doubt such ideas will be well received :) This idea of talent being equally distributed may not be factually accurate. But it's something I'd prefer to believe regardless and be wrong about.
- iguy 8y ago
  > But it's something I'd prefer to believe regardless and be wrong about. This is fine so long as you are judicious about what actions follow from such beliefs. If it motivates you to seek opportunity and encouragement for all, that is wonderful. If it motivates others to run witch-hunts in against fairly meritocratic organisations whose makeup stubbornly refuses to conform to their beliefs, that is less than wonderful.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - yathern 8y ago
    > it motivates others to run witch-hunts in against fairly meritocratic organisations whose makeup stubbornly refuses to conform to their beliefs I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Can you give a specific example of a witch-hunt like this? I imagine you're talking about something where (for low-stakes example) a video game competition is typically dominated by 20 year old white males. Someone stirs the boat and tries to make changes so that 50 year old hispanic women place better, despite worse objective performance. Obviously that would not be a great thing to do! However, let's not assume the makeup of meritocratic organisations is always as fair as we think. In the video game example, the inconsistency with the makeup is not necessarily because 20 year old males are, by nature since birth, better at video games. But for mostly social reasons, having had more exposure.
- seppin 8y ago
  > The context we we're talking about was specifically taken in terms of intelligence. Or "potential". If you want to make the argument that intelligence potential is affected by your ethnicity, you are free to do so, though I doubt such ideas will be well received :) The Sam Harris crowd loves this argument
- V-2 8y ago
  > If you want to make the argument that intelligence potential is affected by your ethnicity, you are free to do so, though I doubt such ideas will be well received :) I'm sure they wouldn't be, but this is not how you disprove an idea.
  - yathern 8y ago
    I didn't try to disprove anything. In fact, that may very well be true. The OP was hinting at the idea, and I wanted to explicate it, while acknowledging the controversy of it. I just don't think much is gained by knowing factually that X people have greater intelligence than Y people. In my opinion, that knowledge can only be used to be divisive and destructive. Lets operate off the principle that all people can have great potential, and work from there. Some things are worth being wrong about.
periodic123 8y ago
let's drop a kenyan marathon runner in the bolivian andes and let's see how far he gets over the course of 1 week compared to a bolivian farmer.
sangnoir 8y ago
Aspiring marathoners in Kenya will have a lot of opportunities. Does Bolivia have the same infrastructure (training programs, mentors, etc)? I'm guessing the answer is no. Distribution of Olympic medals can be predicted by GDP alone, which is more aligned with/is a proxy for 'opportunity' than it is with 'talent', IMO.

bluthru 8y ago

>but that every way you can cut up demographics (age, race, sex, nationality) will have the same bell curve of talent. No. There is not data to support this belief, and the problem becomes when people expect this result and make rules to create this outcome.

danans 8y ago
> No. There is not data to support this belief, At least with things like chess playing and related abilities, there is no data to suggest the opposite belief either. Any observations that we could use at sufficient scale are massively confounded by other huge environmental variables.
- bluthru 8y ago
  Let's take an easy one: basketball. There are more white high school basketball players but more black college basketball players. Are you claiming that's 100% environmental?
  - danans 8y ago
    I never said it was 100% environmental (those are your words). I said determining the cause of high ability in things like chess is not straightforward because of the confounding environmental factors. Just because your cherry picked example of basketball has an obvious first order physical correlation to performance (height) doesn't mean it's comparable to chess. And your example also ignores the fact that white students tend to have more avenues to access college than black students, so don't need basketball programs nearly as much.

akhilcacharya 8y ago

“Not everyone can be a chess champion but a chess champion can come from anywhere”.

yathern 8y ago
Is that a modified ratatouille quote? That's been my philosophy for a while :)
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  It's a good quote!

sDlEzAtyoNAz 8y ago

What reason do you have to believe that?