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I mean, this just sounds to me like a pitch for AirBnB. They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being

I mean, this just sounds to me like a pitch for AirBnB. They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being attached to their real identity. The vast majority of AirBnB guests are very respectful and reasonable. As for your tight local control, fuck that. No, you shouldn't get to decide exactly what happens in your neighborhood just because you got there first. You don't own the neighborhood, you own single plot of land, and people who want to buy other plots of land and collectively evolve the neighborhood in new directions should have just as much of a right as you do.

eropple 8y ago
I understand that there is this odd notion that every man is sui generis and all, but you live in a society. You can change the property under the purview of the association. It would be stupid to assert that you cannot. But you must win a vote to do so--and you agree to adhere to the results of association votes by buying into the property and into the association. Such positive tyranny one must endure. Makes my heart break. But you have a way out! You can always choose...to not buy a place with a condo association or HOA. (I didn't. Single-family home. Would recommend!)
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > I understand that there is this odd notion that every man is sui generis and all, but you live in a society. I think you mean sui iuris (legally autonomous) not sui generis (a unique case).
  - eropple 8y ago
    Yeah, you get me. It's been a while since I had to Latin in anger.
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  Someone can change the rules of local associations or someone can just defy the rules along with enough other people that the association becomes powerless. That's the mode of operation of AirBnb, for good and ill.
chimeracoder 8y ago
> I mean, this just sounds to me like a pitch for AirBnB. They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being attached to their real identity. The vast majority of AirBnB guests are very respectful and reasonable. They have not solved this problem at all. I lived next door to an illegal AirBNB (all short-term whole-apartment rentals are illegal in NYC). It was a nightmare, and there's nothing I could do about it. AirBNB does not consider me a customer and has no contractual relationship with me. They didn't provide any way to determine the owner's listing when you know the address, and even if I had, there's no formal way to lodge a complaint against the owner. The only way a neighbor can take action against their problematic AirBNB neighbor is to report them to the city government.
duxup 8y ago
>As for your tight local control, fuck that. No, you shouldn't get to decide exactly what happens in your neighborhood just because you got there first. That's right I don't get to decide because I was there first. I get to decide because the majority elected me to the association and I carried out their will. I was a representative of the neighborhood and the neighborhood got to decide. I say "get" but I'm not there anymore, so I don't get to anymore.
- szggzs27 8y ago
  why bother replying to a guy who thinks AirBnB solves problems with rating systems? the guy thinking depth is nonexistent
szggzs27 8y ago
>They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being attached to their real identity I think you got it all wrong. This is not a pitch for AirBnB. If anything, the company is creating the problem, not solving it. >As for your tight local control, fuck that. No, you shouldn't get to decide exactly what happens in your neighborhood just because you got there first. You're taking what OP wrote out of context and molding it to fit your simplistic thinking. There are laws to protect residential neighborhoods for a reason, and they certainly are not based on "who got here first" rule.
Xylakant 8y ago
> I mean, this just sounds to me like a pitch for AirBnB. They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being attached to their real identity. The vast majority of AirBnB guests are very respectful and reasonable. Having had a AirBnB rental two floors down: no, they did not. Most guests are reasonable, but a sufficiently high number are not. Unlike a hotel there’s no way to walk up to someone and tell them to shut the party down, so you’re stuck with talking to the guests which laugh in your face (quote: we’re here to party.) or calling the police. Neither is an attractive option. You can’t just complain to AirBnB and the host won’t - if you know how to reach the host. AirBnB does about everything to isolate themselves and their clients from complaints.
8ytecoder 8y ago
They haven’t solved that all. The rating system is between the guest and the host. When it’s the neighbors who bear the brunt. I’m usually not for too much local control or NIMBYIsm. However, this is distinctively different. Airbnb can be awful for the neighbors and they didn’t buy their place knowingly that they’d have to put up with that - what essentially is - a hotel in their midst.
gamblor956 8y ago
As for your tight local control, fuck that. No, you shouldn't get to decide exactly what happens in your neighborhood just because you got there first. You don't own the neighborhood, you own single plot of land, and people who want to buy other plots of land and collectively evolve the neighborhood in new directions should have just as much of a right as you do. The commenter you're replying to was a member of the Board of an HOA. Meaning that he lived in a condo or townhouse development or a private community. In all of these cases, all of the owners are bound by the common rules of the HOA (which, as owners, they have the right to vote on, amend, etc.), and "tight local control" is pretty much the point.
gok 8y ago
The rating system doesn't collect ratings from the victims of bad guests; it collects them from them the hosts. The hosts don't care how bad their guests behave as long as the apartment isn't (permanently) damaged.
tehlike 8y ago
Eh. Residents pay property tax to provide safety and so on in the area. There is a limit to what your neighbor can do, and you should be ready to deal with the cops all the time.
chris11 8y ago
I don't know about that. For awhile I was doing Airbnb while looking for a place. I had the worst rental experience ever. I ended up renting one bedroom in a two bedroom apartment. The people I was staying with weren't bad, or loud. But the person I was renting from had crammed another seven or eight people into the apartment. And one day I came back and found an eviction notice on the door. Apparently it was a rent controlled apartment, only one person was on the lease, and it wasn't the person I was paying. I'm assuming because they had already had several evictions on their records. One one hand I did rent from them, but there were physical issues with the property I found after I showed up.
ebiester 8y ago
So, this doesn't have to go to ad absurdum to become problematic. We depend on a social contract between people who live together to make things harmonious and not devolve into violence. (E.g. neighbors showing up with guns when a party gets too loud; or abstracting the violence, members of the neighborhood calling the cops on small infractions of the law.) So, that gets back to the problem. AirBnB has not solved the problem because the people who are affected are the neighbors of the AirBnB. If the people renting the apartment are not in the apartment itself, they will give the guests 5 stars if the house is clean at the end. However, the neighbors might give that same guest 1 star because they were partying at 3AM, keeping the neighbors awake. So, we get back to calling in the police and making the place worse for everyone. A hotel has people on the premise to monitor; an AirBnB is not guaranteed this.
nabakin 8y ago
It's not about who got there first, it's about what the majority want. The greater good. People buy property in these communities with certain expectations. One of those being that they will not have to deal with people who disrupt the neighborhood. AirBnBs bring randos into closed, private, residential areas that don't want to have to deal with people partying. Sure, it may just be fun and games for the renters who are on vacation, but for everyone else, who have to deal with it 24/7? It's not fun. It's annoying and rude.
kovacs 8y ago
We have zoning laws for a reason. AirBnB is encouraging people to break those laws. It's no different than anyone running a business in a residential zoned area. Do people run small businesses out of their houses? Sure, all the time and technically they're breaking the law. But the main question to ask is are they impacting those around them? For AirBnB that answer is clearly yes. It disrupts the rights of the existing neighbors that are abiding by zoning laws. Just like you can't live in a store front, we can't have people just doing whatever they want because "eh fuck em I own this"... no, you kinda don't. You rent the land from the government and there are laws you are bound by when entering in that agreement. We're trying to have a society here. I'm no attorney but to me it's pretty clear that AirBnB shouldn't be allowed to exist as a business the way it stands today. It's incredible they've made it this far. I'd love to hear some concrete rebuttal as to why what they're doing is OK besides the "less government/regulation" angle.

eropple 8y ago

I understand that there is this odd notion that every man is sui generis and all, but you live in a society. You can change the property under the purview of the association. It would be stupid to assert that you cannot. But you must win a vote to do so--and you agree to adhere to the results of association votes by buying into the property and into the association. Such positive tyranny one must endure. Makes my heart break. But you have a way out! You can always choose...to not buy a place with a condo association or HOA. (I didn't. Single-family home. Would recommend!)

dragonwriter 8y ago
> I understand that there is this odd notion that every man is sui generis and all, but you live in a society. I think you mean sui iuris (legally autonomous) not sui generis (a unique case).
- eropple 8y ago
  Yeah, you get me. It's been a while since I had to Latin in anger.
joe_the_user 8y ago
Someone can change the rules of local associations or someone can just defy the rules along with enough other people that the association becomes powerless. That's the mode of operation of AirBnb, for good and ill.

chimeracoder 8y ago

> I mean, this just sounds to me like a pitch for AirBnB. They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being attached to their real identity. The vast majority of AirBnB guests are very respectful and reasonable. They have not solved this problem at all. I lived next door to an illegal AirBNB (all short-term whole-apartment rentals are illegal in NYC). It was a nightmare, and there's nothing I could do about it. AirBNB does not consider me a customer and has no contractual relationship with me. They didn't provide any way to determine the owner's listing when you know the address, and even if I had, there's no formal way to lodge a complaint against the owner. The only way a neighbor can take action against their problematic AirBNB neighbor is to report them to the city government.

duxup 8y ago

>As for your tight local control, fuck that. No, you shouldn't get to decide exactly what happens in your neighborhood just because you got there first. That's right I don't get to decide because I was there first. I get to decide because the majority elected me to the association and I carried out their will. I was a representative of the neighborhood and the neighborhood got to decide. I say "get" but I'm not there anymore, so I don't get to anymore.

szggzs27 8y ago
why bother replying to a guy who thinks AirBnB solves problems with rating systems? the guy thinking depth is nonexistent

szggzs27 8y ago

>They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being attached to their real identity I think you got it all wrong. This is not a pitch for AirBnB. If anything, the company is creating the problem, not solving it. >As for your tight local control, fuck that. No, you shouldn't get to decide exactly what happens in your neighborhood just because you got there first. You're taking what OP wrote out of context and molding it to fit your simplistic thinking. There are laws to protect residential neighborhoods for a reason, and they certainly are not based on "who got here first" rule.

Xylakant 8y ago

> I mean, this just sounds to me like a pitch for AirBnB. They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being attached to their real identity. The vast majority of AirBnB guests are very respectful and reasonable. Having had a AirBnB rental two floors down: no, they did not. Most guests are reasonable, but a sufficiently high number are not. Unlike a hotel there’s no way to walk up to someone and tell them to shut the party down, so you’re stuck with talking to the guests which laugh in your face (quote: we’re here to party.) or calling the police. Neither is an attractive option. You can’t just complain to AirBnB and the host won’t - if you know how to reach the host. AirBnB does about everything to isolate themselves and their clients from complaints.

8ytecoder 8y ago

They haven’t solved that all. The rating system is between the guest and the host. When it’s the neighbors who bear the brunt. I’m usually not for too much local control or NIMBYIsm. However, this is distinctively different. Airbnb can be awful for the neighbors and they didn’t buy their place knowingly that they’d have to put up with that - what essentially is - a hotel in their midst.

gamblor956 8y ago

As for your tight local control, fuck that. No, you shouldn't get to decide exactly what happens in your neighborhood just because you got there first. You don't own the neighborhood, you own single plot of land, and people who want to buy other plots of land and collectively evolve the neighborhood in new directions should have just as much of a right as you do. The commenter you're replying to was a member of the Board of an HOA. Meaning that he lived in a condo or townhouse development or a private community. In all of these cases, all of the owners are bound by the common rules of the HOA (which, as owners, they have the right to vote on, amend, etc.), and "tight local control" is pretty much the point.

gok 8y ago

The rating system doesn't collect ratings from the victims of bad guests; it collects them from them the hosts. The hosts don't care how bad their guests behave as long as the apartment isn't (permanently) damaged.

tehlike 8y ago

Eh. Residents pay property tax to provide safety and so on in the area. There is a limit to what your neighbor can do, and you should be ready to deal with the cops all the time.

chris11 8y ago

I don't know about that. For awhile I was doing Airbnb while looking for a place. I had the worst rental experience ever. I ended up renting one bedroom in a two bedroom apartment. The people I was staying with weren't bad, or loud. But the person I was renting from had crammed another seven or eight people into the apartment. And one day I came back and found an eviction notice on the door. Apparently it was a rent controlled apartment, only one person was on the lease, and it wasn't the person I was paying. I'm assuming because they had already had several evictions on their records. One one hand I did rent from them, but there were physical issues with the property I found after I showed up.

ebiester 8y ago

So, this doesn't have to go to ad absurdum to become problematic. We depend on a social contract between people who live together to make things harmonious and not devolve into violence. (E.g. neighbors showing up with guns when a party gets too loud; or abstracting the violence, members of the neighborhood calling the cops on small infractions of the law.) So, that gets back to the problem. AirBnB has not solved the problem because the people who are affected are the neighbors of the AirBnB. If the people renting the apartment are not in the apartment itself, they will give the guests 5 stars if the house is clean at the end. However, the neighbors might give that same guest 1 star because they were partying at 3AM, keeping the neighbors awake. So, we get back to calling in the police and making the place worse for everyone. A hotel has people on the premise to monitor; an AirBnB is not guaranteed this.

nabakin 8y ago

It's not about who got there first, it's about what the majority want. The greater good. People buy property in these communities with certain expectations. One of those being that they will not have to deal with people who disrupt the neighborhood. AirBnBs bring randos into closed, private, residential areas that don't want to have to deal with people partying. Sure, it may just be fun and games for the renters who are on vacation, but for everyone else, who have to deal with it 24/7? It's not fun. It's annoying and rude.

kovacs 8y ago

We have zoning laws for a reason. AirBnB is encouraging people to break those laws. It's no different than anyone running a business in a residential zoned area. Do people run small businesses out of their houses? Sure, all the time and technically they're breaking the law. But the main question to ask is are they impacting those around them? For AirBnB that answer is clearly yes. It disrupts the rights of the existing neighbors that are abiding by zoning laws. Just like you can't live in a store front, we can't have people just doing whatever they want because "eh fuck em I own this"... no, you kinda don't. You rent the land from the government and there are laws you are bound by when entering in that agreement. We're trying to have a society here. I'm no attorney but to me it's pretty clear that AirBnB shouldn't be allowed to exist as a business the way it stands today. It's incredible they've made it this far. I'd love to hear some concrete rebuttal as to why what they're doing is OK besides the "less government/regulation" angle.